Galatians 4:30 - the death knell for dispensationalism

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#1
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Gal 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother
.
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Gal 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
.
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Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#2
Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on.

So you disagree with the above statement?? (from gotquestions.org)

I am honestly curious as I am not familiar with the concepts so I am trying to learn what they are.Does the source of your disagreement concern the rapture or the literal reading of the bible? or both? or something else? Thank you.

Also, the dispensational hermeneutic interprets Revelation 20 (where the phrase “a thousand years” occurs six times) as a literal thousand years; this period is known as the millennium, when Christ will rule over the earth with righteousness and peace. (from Moody)
 
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FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#3
Dispensationalism summary


  • Literal interpretation of the Bible
  • God works via different arrangements in distinct periods of history
  • Israel is the literal descendants of Abraham, not spiritual ones
  • Israel is the heir to the promises made to Abraham about the seed being blessed
  • Participation in the Abrahamic Covenant is “mainly” by physical birth in Jewish lineage
  • Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church
  • Church began at Pentecost
  • Salvation is by faith in accordance to the revelation given in a particular dispensation
  • The Holy Spirit did not indwell people in all dispensations, only during the dispensation of the Church Age
  • Christ will reign in the future 1000 year period which occurs after the rapture
Sorry I am posting as I am studying, the above is from carm.

I pretty much agree with the above statements, could you show me where they are in error?
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#4
Also, if you could post your eschatology beliefs that would also be helpful. Again, thank you.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#5
Dispensationalism summary


  • Literal interpretation of the Bible
  • God works via different arrangements in distinct periods of history
  • Israel is the literal descendants of Abraham, not spiritual ones
  • Israel is the heir to the promises made to Abraham about the seed being blessed
  • Participation in the Abrahamic Covenant is “mainly” by physical birth in Jewish lineage
  • Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church
  • Church began at Pentecost
  • Salvation is by faith in accordance to the revelation given in a particular dispensation
  • The Holy Spirit did not indwell people in all dispensations, only during the dispensation of the Church Age
  • Christ will reign in the future 1000 year period which occurs after the rapture
Sorry I am posting as I am studying, the above is from carm.

No worries Fis - this is the main error with dispensationalism:


"Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church"

The rest of dispensational errors flow from the above. The bible knows of no such distinction.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
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#6
No worries Fis - this is the main error with dispensationalism:


"Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church"

The rest of dispensational errors flow from the above. The bible knows of no such distinction.
But weren't the gentiles grafted in where Israel was cut off?
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
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#7
But weren't the gentiles grafted in where Israel was cut off?
Also, doesn't the bible say God will save Israel at a later date? I would appreciate scripture references so I can study this further.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
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#8
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Gal 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother
.
.
Gal 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

I must go ill check back in tomorrow, thanks again!
.
.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.

I'm all over the place tonight, forgive me. I thought the son of the bond woman is the father (eventually) of islam, but that could be way off. I need to study a lot more.
 
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SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
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#9
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Gal 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother
.
.
Gal 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
.
.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.
Opening a bible refutes dispensationialism, imo.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#11
Israel was removed from the favored position. They are now just the same as us poor slobs, the Gentiles.... "in", but not the top dogs any longer.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#12
But weren't the gentiles grafted in where Israel was cut off?
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

It all depends on how the above is viewed Fis. The traditional view of the above it that the 1st century unbelieving Jews/Judah are being spoken off.

It is my opinion that he is speaking of the dispersed 10 tribes of Israel, I say that because the were swept away into the Gentile nations for idolatry and killing the prophets etc:

Rom 11:3 Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”

Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”

There is no doubt that many 1st century "Jews" rejected Christ and were cut off in the war of 66-70 AD - "the wrath to come" of John the Baptist.

Romans was written around mid 50 AD, so the gathering of the diaspora of the ten tribes was still in its early days.

When Peter wrote his first letter around 64 AD we see he is addressing the diaspora of the ten tribes as a royal nation, a holy priesthood:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens (Greek - parepidemos), scattered (Greek - diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen.

parepidemos - an alien alongside, i.e. a resident foreigner.

diaspora - dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries


Peter is not addressing Gentiles as is claimed by some commentaries, he is addressing the ten scattered tribes as can be seen by his use of the Greek "parepidemos", a resident foreigner, which means they were not native to lands they were scattered in.

1 peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

James also addresses all of the 12 tribes who were being gathered in the 1st century and calling them first fruits:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of
first fruits among His creatures.

The conclusion is that all the tribes were being gathered in Christ as promised by the prophets, there is no further gathering of the tribes at some later date 1970 years and counting into the future as posited by dispensationalism.

There is a lot more that can be addressed here but I will try and keep the post somewhat short.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,520
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#13
[h=1] [/h]This is one of the funniest titles to appear in a long time. Why would anyone want to see "the death knell" for Dispensationalism? Evidently this system of Bible study must make you extremely uncomfortable, since it demolishes your existing theological framework altogether.

The epistle to the Galatians is addressed to a church, hences all churches during the dispensation of grace (the Church Age). It has absolutely no bearing on the future of Israel after the second coming of Christ. During the Church Age -- as Paul makes it crystal clear -- there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and the Old Covenant has been replaced with the New Covenant. Hence circumcision -- for example -- avails nothing.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
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#14
I want to say this to start I am not a dispensationalist, I do not claim to be anything but a Christian, I go to a Reformed Church. With that said lets look it what the Bible says.

Here is the problem with the OP Galatians 4:24 “Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.”

It does not say theologially. Here's what BAGD says about the Greek word used, calling it "mythical" so Paul did not mean it literally, he says this maybe interpreted allegorically, again not literially or theologically.

I understand that Genesis 12:7 is speaking of Christ as Galatians 3:16 says. It is very clear that Genesis 15 and 17 are speaking of Isacc as Abraham's offspring, the covenant was ratified in Genesis 15:3-5 speaks of Abraham's offspring being as the stars in the stars.

“And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

The Lord ratifies that covenant in Genesis 15:17-21 also adding a maps of the land as part of this covenant.

“When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Now in Genesis 17:4-8 the Lord tells Abraham that he will be the father of many nations, so this is not speaking of offspring as in one Chirst. Then the Lord tells him that the covenant will be between Abraham his offspring throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, notice the use of the plural personal pronoun by the use of "their", so not singual either.

“Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

Then Genesis 17:9-14 the Lord gives Abraham the everlasting covenant and the sign for it, circumcision. Then in Genesis 17:19 the Lord tells Abraham that Sarah would have a son as his hier and names him as the one that the everlasting covenant would established with and his offspring after him. Clearly this is not speaking of Christ.

“God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him.”

So here is the big question, why are there a people that are of the offspring of Abraham and they still circumcise their male children. Look at all the old art, Greek statues they were not circumcised.

What does all this mean, the are a people that are the elect of God from the beginning of time. Was Job Jews? Who knows bt he was one of the elect, thier are people that are the physical offspring of Abraham that are elect of God and there are some of those same people that have been partially hardened to the Gospel. Remeber this warning by Paul.

Romans 11:24-25, 28-33 “For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”


Romans 11:28-33 “As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!”

Do not be wise in your own eyes about Israel, they will be grafted back in because the Lord is not done with them yet. This has nothing to do with dispensationalism and everything to do with the Bible. Am I looking for aother Temple? No! Do I look to Israel as a time clock for the end of days? No! Why? Because I do not fully understand it all, but I will not be wise in my own eyes when it comes to Israel and that is not dispensationalism.







 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#15
I'm all over the place tonight, forgive me. I thought the son of the bond woman is the father (eventually) of islam, but that could be way off. I need to study a lot more.
Rom Ch 11 & Zec 12:10-13:2

Sorry responded to wrong post meant to respond to post #7.
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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685
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#16
I want to say this to start I am not a dispensationalist, I do not claim to be anything but a Christian, I go to a Reformed Church. With that said lets look it what the Bible says.

Here is the problem with the OP Galatians 4:24 “Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.”

It does not say theologially. Here's what BAGD says about the Greek word used, calling it "mythical" so Paul did not mean it literally, he says this maybe interpreted allegorically, again not literially or theologically.

If you are from a Reformed back ground Johnny you may not be aware of what dispensational "theology" claims - check out my threads on it:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158159-dwight-pentecost-claims-gentiles-will-israels-servants-during-millennium.html

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158274-church-unknown-mystery.html


In regards to Paul's use of allegory the facts are this:

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Paul is echoing Jesus' statement:

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#19
No worries Fis - this is the main error with dispensationalism:


"Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church"

The rest of dispensational errors flow from the above. The bible knows of no such distinction.
One distinct group born again new creatures. Nothing to do with Jew or Gentile, male or female. Never did never will.If any person does not have the eternal Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Christ and therefore will not be raised to new spirit life. All died not receiving the promise.

Three verses.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Heb 11:39

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.Galatians 3:28

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Romans 8:9
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#20
All this from a Preterist.

A tempest in a teapot.

For the cause of Christ
Roger