Galatians 4:30 - the death knell for dispensationalism

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not an ad hominem attack, just fact. God has always dealt with His ppl through covenants. There's the Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic, just to name a few. We are in the Grace covenant now.

So people were saved different ways in all these covenants?

You do realise the abrahamic, and davidic are still active do you not? all the nations of the world are being blessed by the seed (abrahamic) more and more nations every year.

And the daidic will be fulfilled completely, when Jesus returns. And sits on davids throne.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But both are in the same Vine, this Vine being the Christ. There's not two bodies of believers, just one, and this body consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles.

I never said otherwise, I ask just talking about the context of romans 11.

Isreal is the natural branch, who was cut off. Gentiles were the unnatural branch which was grafted in,.

The warning is that just as Isreal (as a nation or entity) was cut off. We (gentiles) too can be cut off. In fact we will, and they will be grafted back in (when they repent)

 

[unobtrusive]

Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Gal 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother
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Gal 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
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Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

allegorically = having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text. The expression by means of symbolic figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence, revealing dispensations of grace.

Sequence of events of Paul's allegory are as follows:

1. Transgression
2. the law to illuminate transgression that bring death.
3. the taking away (the consequence) of the transgression which is death, "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"
4. bringing peace and freedom (Jerusalem) through Christ Jesus. (Galatians 4:25-26)

The the focus of Paul's allegory points to transgression "cast out."

Death and life are opposites.

 

[notuptome]

The ones left are those still living when Jesus returns to gather the church. This is in contrast to those who had already died and were buried. Paul is offering comfort to those still living that they would not miss out but would be gathered along with those who with already with the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Locutus]

Galatians 4 for dummies:

Two covenants - two sons - two mothers - One free - One a slave

Old covenant - Ishmael - Hagar - slave women - bondage

New covenant - Isaac - Sarah - free woman - not in bondage

When Paul wrote:

Jerusalem "which is now" in bondage - allegorically sons of Hagar - Old covenant

Jerusalem "which is above" free - allegorically sons of Sarah - New covenant

Ishmael persecuted the free son Isaac

Old covenant sons of Hagar (1st century Jews) persecuting the New covenant sons of Sarah (New covenant Jews/Israel and Gentiles of the 1st century)

Cast out the bond woman and her sons - Old covenant abiding, Messiah rejecting Jews - not heirs to the promises, in bondage

New covenant sons receive the promise as heirs to the kingdom, not in bondage.

 

[Magenta]

Old covenant - Ishmael - Hagar - slave women - bondage

Of the flesh, which counts for nothing.

New covenant - Isaac - Sarah - free woman - not in bondage

Born of the Spirit

 

[Locutus]

Of the flesh, which counts for nothing.

Born of the Spirit

Ameneth.

Paul states the same thing in Romans, although his explanation is not as comprehensive as it is in Galatians.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named".

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

For Paul, "Jewishness" and circumcision had no part in his gospel, sonship was available to all of any nation through faith in Jesus.

Gal 5:11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So people were saved different ways in all these covenants?

You do realise the abrahamic, and davidic are still active do you not? all the nations of the world are being blessed by the seed (abrahamic) more and more nations every year.

And the daidic will be fulfilled completely, when Jesus returns. And sits on davids throne.

Nop. Ppl are saved by grace through. Only way anyone, old or New Testament, can be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nop. Ppl are saved by grace through. Only way anyone, old or New Testament, can be saved.

Amen.

But you were right about 1 thing. God dealt with mankind differently at different times here on earth.

There is a doctrinal movement which attempts to divide these times into zones, or "ages", in an attempt to help us better understand the word.

That m,ovement was in is called dispensationalism.

 

[Locutus]

Another indicator from Paul of the casting out of the sons of the bond woman Hagar is found in his letter to the Thessalonians:

2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

The context for this is the persecution by the Jews and their henchmen:

1 Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Paul was dogged by the Jews in Thessalonica:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Acts 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

 

[Muzungu256]

Another indicator from Paul of the casting out of the sons of the bond woman Hagar is found in his letter to the Thessalonians:

2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

The context for this is the persecution by the Jews and their henchmen:

1 Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Paul was dogged by the Jews in Thessalonica:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Acts 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

but thessalonica isnt in jerusalem so how were these people affected by it???????????

 

[Locutus]

but thessalonica isnt in jerusalem so how were these people affected by it???????????

What people are you meaning here mon-zungu?

 

[Muzungu256]

What people are you meaning here mon-zungu?

the ppl who were banished w everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. they lived in thessalonica not Jerusalem so how is it talkin about jerusalem's destruction u see?

or are u sayin its talkin about future hell?

 

[Locutus]

Those persecutin' Jews all would be attending Passover when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem in 64 AD.

Only Israel/Judah was said to dwell in the "presence of the Lord" under the old covenant.

That was the time of vengeance when the sons of the kingdom would be cast out.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[FEDERALIST]

If any one wants to read up on progressive displinsationalism read dr Arnold fuchenbaum book.