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T
The problem in the church today is the lack of understanding of SIN and the SIN Nature before and after conversion. As a result churches and dogmatic pastors and self righteous saints define sin and then play Holy Ghost and convict others of what they think is SIN or the SIN nature. They convict people with tattoos, long hair, women that wear pants, and anything that looks like SIN as they define it.
Meanwhile God is looking down going: REALLY!?!?!?! I look at the heart, when my son,....will they!?!?!?
Meanwhile God is looking down going: REALLY!?!?!?! I look at the heart, when my son,....will they!?!?!?
P
i keep thinking this question, and i'm suprised no one has asked...
Malstar, you say you've gone to church all your life.
you say you love going to church and reading the Bible.
that's good.
but has God saved you?
just in case no one's ever told you, honey...going to church does not make anyone
a member of God's Family.
and i'm wondering...just something about the tone of your post...
have you had a real saving encounter with the Redeemer Jesus?
have you heard His Gospel and received it?
Malstar, you say you've gone to church all your life.
you say you love going to church and reading the Bible.
that's good.
but has God saved you?
just in case no one's ever told you, honey...going to church does not make anyone
a member of God's Family.
and i'm wondering...just something about the tone of your post...
have you had a real saving encounter with the Redeemer Jesus?
have you heard His Gospel and received it?
Well, this is what some people have actually been coming from, I believe: homosexuality is not a "greater" sin above others, it is equal to any other and does not make a person specially "condemnable". Why should a homosexual be treated worse than, say, a gossiper in the church, or a grudge holder, or a proud man? Another thing, it is so puffed up and horrible to judge people for something they have done in the past and repented of. They are torn over what they have done but there is no undo button to hit, they are powerless to change the past. How cruel it is to reject them, or act towards them as if they were lesser or somehow "tainted" because of something from their past? This is total disbelief in the washing of regeneration. Or maybe hypocritically beliving in washing of regeneration in God's love just for self, but not for others? God says He casts our sins behind His back as if we never sinned, cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness and removes transgressions from us as far as east is from the west (considering that we repent, of course).
While in some cases considering what the person has done in the past can be justified (a couple who has failed to keep a successful marriage really has no place teaching others on that topic), by this logic, apostle Paul would not be allowed any kind of leadership for what he has done in the past. Could we imagine nowadays a man persecuting and slaughtering saints repenting and becoming a leader in the church or being given any authority? Hah no way. People cannot imagine this, because we seldom see things through the eyes of God, and there is to this day hatred against Paul in a few denominations and believing he is a false apostle because of his past. Yet the smallest shall be the greatest - Paul got the most space in the New Testament, and also the very belittled Mary Magdalene was the first to see the risen Jesus and tell the apostles. God is so amazing and confounding to man's ways of thinking.
I do not believe this kind of condemnation was where your post was going, it seemed to be pretty much about setting a good example to the rest in the church, nor I am antagonizing you on that premise. Unbelievers are the first to demand from Christians to accept the ways of the world contrary to God's Word, and then mock God and call us out if the ways of the world are found among us (damned when you do, damned when you dont... what a hellish yoyo). Just saying I totally understand also where some people on here are coming from, they were rather writing because they are sick of this kind of judgment going on in churches and when some sins are being made greater than others, yet some like slander and hypocrisy walk unrestrained, so I wanted to expound on that side of the coin. Also forgive me for snipping your post, it was for the sake of being concise. I agree with you about approaching deliverance with more care and caution. If the situation is misjudged, it can actually deal damage. Same goes for any type of spiritual touch, from making friendships to laying hands. I never pray for deliverance unless God leads me to do it.
If I understood well, it seems the thread starter wants to keep the gay lifestyle regardless of Bible saying this way is destined to inherit hell. Sadly, we cannot help as he seeks no help... We can only state the truth by agreeing with the Bible and after that all we can do is testify with our actions. I have noticed that confusion goes with homosexuality hand in hand as a rule and am so saddened about what seems to be his choice and believe he needs help. I do not know how to pray effectively on this - but God knows what exactly he needs to receive. So let us ask Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to intercede on his behalf through us and speak to him. Amen!
While in some cases considering what the person has done in the past can be justified (a couple who has failed to keep a successful marriage really has no place teaching others on that topic), by this logic, apostle Paul would not be allowed any kind of leadership for what he has done in the past. Could we imagine nowadays a man persecuting and slaughtering saints repenting and becoming a leader in the church or being given any authority? Hah no way. People cannot imagine this, because we seldom see things through the eyes of God, and there is to this day hatred against Paul in a few denominations and believing he is a false apostle because of his past. Yet the smallest shall be the greatest - Paul got the most space in the New Testament, and also the very belittled Mary Magdalene was the first to see the risen Jesus and tell the apostles. God is so amazing and confounding to man's ways of thinking.
I do not believe this kind of condemnation was where your post was going, it seemed to be pretty much about setting a good example to the rest in the church, nor I am antagonizing you on that premise. Unbelievers are the first to demand from Christians to accept the ways of the world contrary to God's Word, and then mock God and call us out if the ways of the world are found among us (damned when you do, damned when you dont... what a hellish yoyo). Just saying I totally understand also where some people on here are coming from, they were rather writing because they are sick of this kind of judgment going on in churches and when some sins are being made greater than others, yet some like slander and hypocrisy walk unrestrained, so I wanted to expound on that side of the coin. Also forgive me for snipping your post, it was for the sake of being concise. I agree with you about approaching deliverance with more care and caution. If the situation is misjudged, it can actually deal damage. Same goes for any type of spiritual touch, from making friendships to laying hands. I never pray for deliverance unless God leads me to do it.
If I understood well, it seems the thread starter wants to keep the gay lifestyle regardless of Bible saying this way is destined to inherit hell. Sadly, we cannot help as he seeks no help... We can only state the truth by agreeing with the Bible and after that all we can do is testify with our actions. I have noticed that confusion goes with homosexuality hand in hand as a rule and am so saddened about what seems to be his choice and believe he needs help. I do not know how to pray effectively on this - but God knows what exactly he needs to receive. So let us ask Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to intercede on his behalf through us and speak to him. Amen!
T
What you don't see in my post is that through proper discipleship and maturing and completing by the body of Christ[notice I did not say by me, the pastor]the woman that played in strip clubs is now a wonderful and strongly anointed worship leader, the couple healed their marraige and are now singles pastors and their marriage problems have helped them steer young singles from making the same mistakes. The call on the child minister was right on, because sadly, he was caught and convicted of molesting 3 kids at another church that felt it was too harsh too people to a back ground check on ANY of their children workers and wanted to give him a "pass" and did not want to get in the way of the "calling" God placed on his life.
This is what happens when we attempt to be spiritual and not guided by the spirit of wisdom, it also is God's way of validating and approving you when others think your decision stinks.
What you also do not see is there is not any condemnation at any level. The decision stops with the shepherd God has placed in and over the house. I took a beating over not putting that man in our children's ministry. Even the Children's pastor and his wife got mad at me. We lost 4 very strong financial givers,who left the church over my decision, which spooked my board members and then made them question my motives. I was being attacked from every side. The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO. Even when the background check came back, I was met with resistance..."He did not actually touch a child, he did not make the child touch him." The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
As soon as I told the man he could not be used in Children ministry, but we could use him as a greeter and usher and he proved himself with small things we would use him in larger things and mature and equip his walk. He got mad and left the church and about 15 people with him.
About 9 months later at another church about 100 miles away, we received the news. 3 victims all children. That church was sued and went bankrupt, the Pastor will never have another church and is fighting the personal law suits, his wife attempted suicide. The children's pastor and his wife who let the man in never recovered and they left the faith all together and are now in the world. countless families were shattered all because they wanted to be thought of as tolerant and spiritual and loving. The man never told anyone he went to our church, if he had and that church called us, I would pulled the pastor aside and only told him what I discerned. The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
Sometimes standing up in love means you lose a lot and will get reviled and attacked., but God is faithful and will strengthen you, help you and hold you up with his right hand of righteousness. The 4 givers collectively added just over $2500.00 a month to our budget and all of them earmarked that whole amount to our utility bills, including electricity.
Because of that loss, my board wanted to lose me like a bad cold, because our utility bills were now not going to "get paid"
God provided enough to cover the utility bills and about 10 months later we received 8 new givers and the amount given doubled and they made sure the money went to the utility bills and the excess used to fund the childrens ministry.
I understand the spirit of your reply and thank you for it, I hope I have added some additional color to my comments.
Sometimes what looks like or appears to be harsh condemnation and rejection on the outside is really wisdom, understanding, discernment all operating in the standard of love. I love that man, but there was not one minute that I ever doubted my decision......The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
This is what happens when we attempt to be spiritual and not guided by the spirit of wisdom, it also is God's way of validating and approving you when others think your decision stinks.
What you also do not see is there is not any condemnation at any level. The decision stops with the shepherd God has placed in and over the house. I took a beating over not putting that man in our children's ministry. Even the Children's pastor and his wife got mad at me. We lost 4 very strong financial givers,who left the church over my decision, which spooked my board members and then made them question my motives. I was being attacked from every side. The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO. Even when the background check came back, I was met with resistance..."He did not actually touch a child, he did not make the child touch him." The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
As soon as I told the man he could not be used in Children ministry, but we could use him as a greeter and usher and he proved himself with small things we would use him in larger things and mature and equip his walk. He got mad and left the church and about 15 people with him.
About 9 months later at another church about 100 miles away, we received the news. 3 victims all children. That church was sued and went bankrupt, the Pastor will never have another church and is fighting the personal law suits, his wife attempted suicide. The children's pastor and his wife who let the man in never recovered and they left the faith all together and are now in the world. countless families were shattered all because they wanted to be thought of as tolerant and spiritual and loving. The man never told anyone he went to our church, if he had and that church called us, I would pulled the pastor aside and only told him what I discerned. The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
Sometimes standing up in love means you lose a lot and will get reviled and attacked., but God is faithful and will strengthen you, help you and hold you up with his right hand of righteousness. The 4 givers collectively added just over $2500.00 a month to our budget and all of them earmarked that whole amount to our utility bills, including electricity.
Because of that loss, my board wanted to lose me like a bad cold, because our utility bills were now not going to "get paid"
God provided enough to cover the utility bills and about 10 months later we received 8 new givers and the amount given doubled and they made sure the money went to the utility bills and the excess used to fund the childrens ministry.
I understand the spirit of your reply and thank you for it, I hope I have added some additional color to my comments.
Sometimes what looks like or appears to be harsh condemnation and rejection on the outside is really wisdom, understanding, discernment all operating in the standard of love. I love that man, but there was not one minute that I ever doubted my decision......The Holy Ghost said emphatically NO.
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C
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Just click the blue "Link" unless you can't it's #75.
Friend, I'm Sorry too ... I didn't mean to put "even" in my sentence to you. Sometimes I suffer from shock.
'POST', traumatic stress syndrome.
Friend, I'm Sorry too ... I didn't mean to put "even" in my sentence to you. Sometimes I suffer from shock.
'POST', traumatic stress syndrome.
I´m going to check the link and post 75.
Thanks!
PS
The link in there (post 75) is out (http://christianchat.com/search.php?searchid=844493)
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I wish the OP had commented somewhere on this thread. Clarified a few things.
@ Human - Homosexuality is a sin,and it is NOT just Leviticus that says it. Oldhermit posted Romans 1, but also 1 Cor. 6:9
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality" 1 Cor. 6:9
"understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, [SUP]10 [/SUP]the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Tim. 1:9-10
Here is another sin list that includes "sexual immorality"
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-20
So a lot more here than just homosexuality that is sin! These sin lists are equal in status. So the sexually immoral person is just as bad as someone who has temper tantrums, or envies other people. Yet we would not bar someone from holding positions of leadership in a church, if we knew they had anger issues, or maybe were a bit jealous of those who had more materially.
If the OP is not actively engaged in homosexuality, then I don't know why he bothered to tell anyone. And as far as keeping them away from young people, most homosexuals are not pedophiles. Pedophiles can be hetero- or homosexual, but we don't stop men or women from working with children, "just in case" they might be pedophiles. I know our church does a huge background check of EVERYONE who works with children, and that is the way it should be!
I think we are all working on overcoming sin in parts of our lives. Sometimes that is easy. I was an alcoholic before I was saved, and I have never had or wanted another drink in 34 years. Just totally delivered. Now, some other sins I pray daily for God to change me, to transform me into what he wants me to be. It's a journey and a process.
So I pray for the OP, that he will come back and dialogue, and that we can minister to him, and help him to be celibate by choice, regardless of his desires.
Sadly, if you want to talk sexual sins, pornography among Christians, is probably the most prevalent sin today, with estimates as high as over 50% of all Christian men, and 20% of all Christian men using it. Pastors fare even worse, with 54% of pastors viewing internet porn.
How Many Pastors Are Addicted to Porn? The Stats are Surprising | ExPastors.com
So while I condemn no one here for their lifestyle choices, we all need to look to our own lives and keep our accounts straight with God, and then "Go and sin no more."
@ Human - Homosexuality is a sin,and it is NOT just Leviticus that says it. Oldhermit posted Romans 1, but also 1 Cor. 6:9
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality" 1 Cor. 6:9
"understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, [SUP]10 [/SUP]the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Tim. 1:9-10
Here is another sin list that includes "sexual immorality"
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-20
So a lot more here than just homosexuality that is sin! These sin lists are equal in status. So the sexually immoral person is just as bad as someone who has temper tantrums, or envies other people. Yet we would not bar someone from holding positions of leadership in a church, if we knew they had anger issues, or maybe were a bit jealous of those who had more materially.
If the OP is not actively engaged in homosexuality, then I don't know why he bothered to tell anyone. And as far as keeping them away from young people, most homosexuals are not pedophiles. Pedophiles can be hetero- or homosexual, but we don't stop men or women from working with children, "just in case" they might be pedophiles. I know our church does a huge background check of EVERYONE who works with children, and that is the way it should be!
I think we are all working on overcoming sin in parts of our lives. Sometimes that is easy. I was an alcoholic before I was saved, and I have never had or wanted another drink in 34 years. Just totally delivered. Now, some other sins I pray daily for God to change me, to transform me into what he wants me to be. It's a journey and a process.
So I pray for the OP, that he will come back and dialogue, and that we can minister to him, and help him to be celibate by choice, regardless of his desires.
Sadly, if you want to talk sexual sins, pornography among Christians, is probably the most prevalent sin today, with estimates as high as over 50% of all Christian men, and 20% of all Christian men using it. Pastors fare even worse, with 54% of pastors viewing internet porn.
How Many Pastors Are Addicted to Porn? The Stats are Surprising | ExPastors.com
So while I condemn no one here for their lifestyle choices, we all need to look to our own lives and keep our accounts straight with God, and then "Go and sin no more."
K
Homosexuality is caused by demonic means as it was satan's plan to destroy humanity, because homo's can't reproduce, that in its self should tell you something and if you are homo. God loves you, I meant He became a man and died for you and He wants to help you, look it the homo life is an awful life, yeah the rich and famous make it out be such a great thing, but why do they go crazy and do stupid things?
Jesus loves you, he just hates what your doing. The same thing if a parent see's their 12 year old smoking. They don't hate the child they just hate what their doing, why? Because they know it is hurting the child, same thing with God. He see's you engaging in homosexual activity and He knows it will bring you harm and tries His best to stop you, but will not forgo your freewill. He say's well if that's what you want I will give you what you want, but the problem is you don't want what you got and you look to government to force it down our throat and still don't want what you got.
Jesus loves you, he just hates what your doing. The same thing if a parent see's their 12 year old smoking. They don't hate the child they just hate what their doing, why? Because they know it is hurting the child, same thing with God. He see's you engaging in homosexual activity and He knows it will bring you harm and tries His best to stop you, but will not forgo your freewill. He say's well if that's what you want I will give you what you want, but the problem is you don't want what you got and you look to government to force it down our throat and still don't want what you got.
E
Isaiah 1:10-20King James Version (KJV)
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.