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A
Yes I have Elizabeth. It's in TN and is a reputable college. Understand I was just teasing the professor a little because he stumbled so badly in his posting here in this thread. In truth, I have absolutely no idea what his credentials are and if they are reputable then I accept them and more power to him for that.
H
haha...this is funny 
K...I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me if someone else already said this...by practicing a gay lifestyle I imagine you mean openly engaging in homosexual behavior. If that is what you mean, then no - that person would not go to heaven. They are practicing sin...openly. It is the same as if I practiced lying, or adultery, or fornication...how can we be free from sin if we live in it (openly and knowingly, practice it)? How can we be a true believer if we unashamedly engage in something that we know God condemns? BTW...I do believe that a homosexual person can be a true believer....the temptation doesn't make it a sin, acting on the temptation does. Remember that scripture that says "after desire is conceived it gives birth to sin, and when it's full grown gives birth to death"...
K...I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me if someone else already said this...by practicing a gay lifestyle I imagine you mean openly engaging in homosexual behavior. If that is what you mean, then no - that person would not go to heaven. They are practicing sin...openly. It is the same as if I practiced lying, or adultery, or fornication...how can we be free from sin if we live in it (openly and knowingly, practice it)? How can we be a true believer if we unashamedly engage in something that we know God condemns? BTW...I do believe that a homosexual person can be a true believer....the temptation doesn't make it a sin, acting on the temptation does. Remember that scripture that says "after desire is conceived it gives birth to sin, and when it's full grown gives birth to death"...
You want to judge someone that identifies as GLB that is a Christian? Look at the fruits of the spirit in their lives. Who are we to say who enters the gates of heaven or not? Not a single one of us here would have passage to heaven without the grace of Christ. Yet here everyone is making a big deal about it. Some of you seem to love the sinner and hate the idea of the sin, some of you seem like "wooo! Abomination!" westboro flavored then some are in between.
We're arguing over a 3000 year old book, and let's face it there are cultural things in the word that are not relevant to now. Is Yeshua still the lamb of God? yes! But what about other things that are different now? Examples: Are women silent or has God raised them up and made them mighty against the enemy and unleashed the gifts of the spirit with them? Guys, are you getting hair cuts or are you going all 1960's "give me a head with hair, shoulder length or longer" ? Have you had shrimp or bacon lately?! There's a lot we don't understand and I think trying to shove things into a little neat box is perhaps foolish as well as reckless. Furthermore how is the word homosexual even in the bible now when it wasn't a word until the late 1800's and didn't even appear in the bible until the late 1940s? I'm not saying accept everything and let people run crazy.
Is same sex attraction itself a sin or is it the sexual act? I mean where do you draw the line here? Furthermore what person in their sane mind would choose to go up against so much? Counter culture, families abandoning them, judgment pouring in on every side from something that wasn't something they woke up one day and decided to be. Who are we to draw the lines and throw stones while perhaps dwelling in our own glass houses? I encourage everyone to pray and seek further knowledge on anything in the word, not just this subject. And no matter what your struggles or what sins you focus on and what sins you do not; put down your words and your judgements and treat people like Christ did, with love and grace.
end mini rant thing.
We're arguing over a 3000 year old book, and let's face it there are cultural things in the word that are not relevant to now. Is Yeshua still the lamb of God? yes! But what about other things that are different now? Examples: Are women silent or has God raised them up and made them mighty against the enemy and unleashed the gifts of the spirit with them? Guys, are you getting hair cuts or are you going all 1960's "give me a head with hair, shoulder length or longer" ? Have you had shrimp or bacon lately?! There's a lot we don't understand and I think trying to shove things into a little neat box is perhaps foolish as well as reckless. Furthermore how is the word homosexual even in the bible now when it wasn't a word until the late 1800's and didn't even appear in the bible until the late 1940s? I'm not saying accept everything and let people run crazy.
Is same sex attraction itself a sin or is it the sexual act? I mean where do you draw the line here? Furthermore what person in their sane mind would choose to go up against so much? Counter culture, families abandoning them, judgment pouring in on every side from something that wasn't something they woke up one day and decided to be. Who are we to draw the lines and throw stones while perhaps dwelling in our own glass houses? I encourage everyone to pray and seek further knowledge on anything in the word, not just this subject. And no matter what your struggles or what sins you focus on and what sins you do not; put down your words and your judgements and treat people like Christ did, with love and grace.
end mini rant thing.
T
Wait. What? Heterosexuality is more than just men and women being attracted to each other, it's our God-given identity as males and females.
Which can only be accomplished by the saving blood of Jesus Christ (his righteousness) and the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.
In all honesty, you're taking the Bible out of context. Paul was talking to a specific people. God designed men and women to reflect his Triune relationship, in marriage. That's what marriage is. To debase marriage, is to debase a beautiful blessing from God. Also, if no-one got married and sex can only be had within marriage, how would humanity continue? It wouldn't.
No, it's because our love for our Creator and Saviour will be the completion of the love we experienced on earth. Our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ will be an extension of that in Heaven.
You're forgetting we're made in the Image of God, our Creator and Lord. We are physical and spiritual beings, have a body and soul/spirit. God breathed his very life into Adam to kick-start his lungs. We need God's love more than we need air. Human beings are sexual beings, God made us this way. It's not just 'science'. Science is interesting but limited; has no 'soul'. It's cold-hard facts based on repetitious observation of the physical. Metaphysical questions and understandings simply can't be confirmed or explored properly using Science. I've not devaluing Science, it's a beautiful thing that helps us understand the physical world, in which we live but it can't be used to address matters of faith etc. that's not it's role/function.
Flesh (our sinful humanity, being born into sin etc.) is different to the physical flesh (our bones, blood, skin, nervous system, organs etc). God doesn't say that the spiritual is only important and that the physical is superfluous. That's denigrating God and is a teaching that closer to the foul stench of Gnosticism than anything of a biblical nature. We won't be floating spirits in Heaven (or more accurately, on the New Heaven and the New Earth). Our heavenly bodies will be material but perfect. The sin that cursed every part of creation is the curse. The physical world itself isn't a curse. You need to understand that.
Wow. And that is your problem. God doesn't want you to think about life beyond this world so much that you abandon any desire to do God's will in this world. Being focused on God is great but the getting to Heaven bit is only accomplished by Christ's saving grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, you can't do that on your own merit. Yes, this world is tough and at times a horrible place to live but we have work to do while we're here. The physical world isn't the issue, sin is.
It sounds like you're using God as an excuse not to pursue romantic relationships. God isn't denying you love, you're denying yourself love. I don't know your story but that's the view I get from reading your posts. Your sinful humanity likely wants to love someone for selfish reasons (same goes for everyone else) but God originally designed love for selfless reasons. That doesn't mean that romantic love isn't of God, it just means you have to be very careful when entering a relationship and that you should have your eyes forever fixed on God and that you should build your relationship on Him.
I want both and I don't think there's anything wrong with this. Just because something is temporary, doesn't mean it has no value. Again, marriage is a foretaste of God's Triune love and his complete, holy love for his people that will be revealed fully come the New Heaven and the New Earth. I sense a lot of hurt. It's not healthy, sister to debase marriage. Marriage is intensely spiritual, designed by God out of His love for us.
Yes, sex and romance would be factors that make the relationship something more than sisterly or brotherly in nature but I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that this means there's no need for marriage.
Outside of God's perfect Will, I'm sure sex is overrated - it seeks to deny the spiritual aspect. Within His Will though, I'm sure sex is a beautiful thing. Sexuality on the other hand can't be divorced from your identity in Christ. It's more than being born male or female, it's all about being made in the Image of God.
True. I agree that you shouldn't listen to the world. Society tells us everything is about sex, that's not true. I love God's way too but I don't see how marriage is Satan's way, just because it's temporary. Might want to think that one through a bit more.
Amen!
God Bless, mate.
Which can only be accomplished by the saving blood of Jesus Christ (his righteousness) and the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.
In all honesty, you're taking the Bible out of context. Paul was talking to a specific people. God designed men and women to reflect his Triune relationship, in marriage. That's what marriage is. To debase marriage, is to debase a beautiful blessing from God. Also, if no-one got married and sex can only be had within marriage, how would humanity continue? It wouldn't.
No, it's because our love for our Creator and Saviour will be the completion of the love we experienced on earth. Our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ will be an extension of that in Heaven.
You're forgetting we're made in the Image of God, our Creator and Lord. We are physical and spiritual beings, have a body and soul/spirit. God breathed his very life into Adam to kick-start his lungs. We need God's love more than we need air. Human beings are sexual beings, God made us this way. It's not just 'science'. Science is interesting but limited; has no 'soul'. It's cold-hard facts based on repetitious observation of the physical. Metaphysical questions and understandings simply can't be confirmed or explored properly using Science. I've not devaluing Science, it's a beautiful thing that helps us understand the physical world, in which we live but it can't be used to address matters of faith etc. that's not it's role/function.
Flesh (our sinful humanity, being born into sin etc.) is different to the physical flesh (our bones, blood, skin, nervous system, organs etc). God doesn't say that the spiritual is only important and that the physical is superfluous. That's denigrating God and is a teaching that closer to the foul stench of Gnosticism than anything of a biblical nature. We won't be floating spirits in Heaven (or more accurately, on the New Heaven and the New Earth). Our heavenly bodies will be material but perfect. The sin that cursed every part of creation is the curse. The physical world itself isn't a curse. You need to understand that.
Wow. And that is your problem. God doesn't want you to think about life beyond this world so much that you abandon any desire to do God's will in this world. Being focused on God is great but the getting to Heaven bit is only accomplished by Christ's saving grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, you can't do that on your own merit. Yes, this world is tough and at times a horrible place to live but we have work to do while we're here. The physical world isn't the issue, sin is.
It sounds like you're using God as an excuse not to pursue romantic relationships. God isn't denying you love, you're denying yourself love. I don't know your story but that's the view I get from reading your posts. Your sinful humanity likely wants to love someone for selfish reasons (same goes for everyone else) but God originally designed love for selfless reasons. That doesn't mean that romantic love isn't of God, it just means you have to be very careful when entering a relationship and that you should have your eyes forever fixed on God and that you should build your relationship on Him.
I want both and I don't think there's anything wrong with this. Just because something is temporary, doesn't mean it has no value. Again, marriage is a foretaste of God's Triune love and his complete, holy love for his people that will be revealed fully come the New Heaven and the New Earth. I sense a lot of hurt. It's not healthy, sister to debase marriage. Marriage is intensely spiritual, designed by God out of His love for us.
Yes, sex and romance would be factors that make the relationship something more than sisterly or brotherly in nature but I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that this means there's no need for marriage.
Outside of God's perfect Will, I'm sure sex is overrated - it seeks to deny the spiritual aspect. Within His Will though, I'm sure sex is a beautiful thing. Sexuality on the other hand can't be divorced from your identity in Christ. It's more than being born male or female, it's all about being made in the Image of God.
True. I agree that you shouldn't listen to the world. Society tells us everything is about sex, that's not true. I love God's way too but I don't see how marriage is Satan's way, just because it's temporary. Might want to think that one through a bit more.
Amen!
God Bless, mate.
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The professors position is that people regularly freak over homosexuality while tolerating divorce and adultery... The dichotomy exists in society. Professor never asserted any particular individual in this thread held that dichotomy.
What is wrong with you that you feel the need to mock someone and boast your own credentials overs such a disagreement. Especially over a disagreement that only exists when you don't properly read or understand someone elses post?
Professor was clearly talking about a social generality that most people here have probably observed at least somewhat.
The guy isn't even supporting homosexuality in any way shape or form, he's making a point concerning how people approach it. And if you step back and look at how our cultures are acting to these topics, his point is very sound. When's the last time you heard of an anti-adultery lobby?
What is wrong with you that you feel the need to mock someone and boast your own credentials overs such a disagreement. Especially over a disagreement that only exists when you don't properly read or understand someone elses post?
Professor was clearly talking about a social generality that most people here have probably observed at least somewhat.
The guy isn't even supporting homosexuality in any way shape or form, he's making a point concerning how people approach it. And if you step back and look at how our cultures are acting to these topics, his point is very sound. When's the last time you heard of an anti-adultery lobby?
Interesting post BurninAximili, I'll take a stab at it if you don't mind.
Only if they say they are Christian. By saying that they are saying they ascribe to certain presuppositions that ultimately condemn their action. Otherwise I don't have a problem with them.
They may well have more than most. But if you do good in all areas but one you still have to work on that one eventually.
We are no one to say such a thing. This is probably the best question you've asked and should be at the forefront of this topic. The state of gays going to heaven is no better or worse than those who do every other kind of other thing. Do they go or not? I don't know. It's not really up to us. I believe quite a few people still burdened by this or that sin will actually make the cut, but thats just me, it doesn't mean anything.
There are many things they should make a big deal of, but consistently this is the thing they're making a big deal up. Is that kind of your point?
Some don't even like the ones that 'love the sinner hate the sin'. But all those ranges are to be expected are they not?
A lot of things in that book are far more relevant than people here would care to admit. Its notable how much simple things like washing and keeping communicable diseases out of the public gatherings was emphasized in that 3000 year old book. Those are things that people mocked just 300 years ago, and many plagues where spread due to mocking it.
Woot!
How is that different? I could cite Deborah, Ester, the daughters of that one tribe that had all that inheritance and such. Even someone like Hannaniah had God's spirit on her. You're buying more into recent history, last 200 years or so, than the history Scripture was written in.
Both are good. Both existed in Scripture. Some men cut their hair short, some had it long, some had vows that required it long.
God no. Why would I? Bottom feeders and garbage eaters are not for me.
It shouldn't appear at all. It only ever talks about the act, and even then it only talks about men with men.
It's the act. That's pretty clean cut. Most people who look at the issue would stay its specifically the act.
Oh, loads of people. People decide to be counter culture for tonnes of reasons, and homosexuality is far from the only counter-culture out there. Lots of people embrace counter cultures just to be part of that counter culture. Otherwise they embrace it for the ideals it holds or for other personal reasons.
I am part of a pretty decent sized counter culture that is nowhere near as acceptable as homosexuality. I did it for ideological, intelectual, and personal reasons. I have an art with people so I don't have nearly so many problems as most of those who would follow the same path as me, but I have my problems.
Most people throwing stones are part of one or more mainstream culture. Their house isn't glass. They have a good vantage point to go throwing stones at anyone smaller than themselves.
It is worth noting though that accepting homosexuality is also a mainstream culture nowdays. No one is really 'the little guy' in this fight. Its just two major cultures warring.
Amen, good prayer.
Gotta love love.
End counterrant chat thing.
Only if they say they are Christian. By saying that they are saying they ascribe to certain presuppositions that ultimately condemn their action. Otherwise I don't have a problem with them.
They may well have more than most. But if you do good in all areas but one you still have to work on that one eventually.
We are no one to say such a thing. This is probably the best question you've asked and should be at the forefront of this topic. The state of gays going to heaven is no better or worse than those who do every other kind of other thing. Do they go or not? I don't know. It's not really up to us. I believe quite a few people still burdened by this or that sin will actually make the cut, but thats just me, it doesn't mean anything.
There are many things they should make a big deal of, but consistently this is the thing they're making a big deal up. Is that kind of your point?
Some don't even like the ones that 'love the sinner hate the sin'. But all those ranges are to be expected are they not?
A lot of things in that book are far more relevant than people here would care to admit. Its notable how much simple things like washing and keeping communicable diseases out of the public gatherings was emphasized in that 3000 year old book. Those are things that people mocked just 300 years ago, and many plagues where spread due to mocking it.
Woot!
How is that different? I could cite Deborah, Ester, the daughters of that one tribe that had all that inheritance and such. Even someone like Hannaniah had God's spirit on her. You're buying more into recent history, last 200 years or so, than the history Scripture was written in.
Both are good. Both existed in Scripture. Some men cut their hair short, some had it long, some had vows that required it long.
God no. Why would I? Bottom feeders and garbage eaters are not for me.
It shouldn't appear at all. It only ever talks about the act, and even then it only talks about men with men.
It's the act. That's pretty clean cut. Most people who look at the issue would stay its specifically the act.
Oh, loads of people. People decide to be counter culture for tonnes of reasons, and homosexuality is far from the only counter-culture out there. Lots of people embrace counter cultures just to be part of that counter culture. Otherwise they embrace it for the ideals it holds or for other personal reasons.
I am part of a pretty decent sized counter culture that is nowhere near as acceptable as homosexuality. I did it for ideological, intelectual, and personal reasons. I have an art with people so I don't have nearly so many problems as most of those who would follow the same path as me, but I have my problems.
Most people throwing stones are part of one or more mainstream culture. Their house isn't glass. They have a good vantage point to go throwing stones at anyone smaller than themselves.
It is worth noting though that accepting homosexuality is also a mainstream culture nowdays. No one is really 'the little guy' in this fight. Its just two major cultures warring.
Amen, good prayer.
Gotta love love.
End counterrant chat thing.
N
I believe that if a gay person repents and lives a lifestyle that lines up with God's word he may go to heaven. I believe this because if someone committed murder or was a thief and repented and changed their life thy will go to heaven. Chosing to be gay is no more a sin than chosing to commit murder or stealing etc. Sin is sin. You can't just do what ever ya want when your saved. Jesus came to make a change in peoples lives so we can serve him with a clear mind. I do not want to play God. He know the heart of his creation and his grace is abundant.
T
The bible does not use the words homosexual/heterosexual. By condemning homosexuality we inadvertently (or on purpose!) make heterosexuality our holy standard. This is an error with fatal consequences for the church. Within the church there is a voice that says, "thank God for your healthy sexual desires" when men are indulging in pornographic thinking. Our holy standard can be understood by understanding three words - husband, wife and eunuch. No one lives up to this standard naturally.
By implicitly accepting heterosexuality as our holy standard, we give reason to the pro-homosexual argument: "some were born with homosexual desires, therefore it can not be from God that they obstain while heterosexuals do what they desire." The truth is that we were ALL born with perverse desires and we ought not live according to them, but according to the holy standard God has given to us. And that standard is NOT heterosexuality!
By implicitly accepting heterosexuality as our holy standard, we give reason to the pro-homosexual argument: "some were born with homosexual desires, therefore it can not be from God that they obstain while heterosexuals do what they desire." The truth is that we were ALL born with perverse desires and we ought not live according to them, but according to the holy standard God has given to us. And that standard is NOT heterosexuality!
A
haha...this is funny
K...I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me if someone else already said this...by practicing a gay lifestyle I imagine you mean openly engaging in homosexual behavior. If that is what you mean, then no - that person would not go to heaven. They are practicing sin...openly. It is the same as if I practiced lying, or adultery, or fornication...how can we be free from sin if we live in it (openly and knowingly, practice it)? How can we be a true believer if we unashamedly engage in something that we know God condemns? BTW...I do believe that a homosexual person can be a true believer....the temptation doesn't make it a sin, acting on the temptation does. Remember that scripture that says "after desire is conceived it gives birth to sin, and when it's full grown gives birth to death"...
K...I haven't read this entire thread so please forgive me if someone else already said this...by practicing a gay lifestyle I imagine you mean openly engaging in homosexual behavior. If that is what you mean, then no - that person would not go to heaven. They are practicing sin...openly. It is the same as if I practiced lying, or adultery, or fornication...how can we be free from sin if we live in it (openly and knowingly, practice it)? How can we be a true believer if we unashamedly engage in something that we know God condemns? BTW...I do believe that a homosexual person can be a true believer....the temptation doesn't make it a sin, acting on the temptation does. Remember that scripture that says "after desire is conceived it gives birth to sin, and when it's full grown gives birth to death"...
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were(past tense) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor 6:9-11).
T
The church recognises that lustful thoughts are the result of the curse of sin, but I've never heard it said that it's healthy for men (and women, they're not exempt) to think lustful thoughts. As for heterosexuality, it's all about recognising that we're made in the Image of God. Therefore, Christ is our holy standard.
B
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." If you are a christian and you don't have these.. I'd be questioning if you are saved in the first place. You can't live in sin and expect to get to heaven. Basic and Simple. *Shrugs*
B
LOL... DId ya get some coffee??? No He isn't. Actually I was kinda confused at first too, THis is an interesting position... And I think accurate. THe point is to SHIFT "think/speak" from focusing on sexual orientation to the only permitted sexual venues permitted by God... MARRIAGE (husband/wife) or Eunuch. I believe there is some truth here... I can recognize HOW the systematic chipping away of biblical values has developed over the years by making small allowances... from there.
you can not be tagged a christian and still gay . if you have chosen to be gay, you are not a christian, but if you repent and decide to follow Christ, even though we face struggles everyday, we become Christians
. if you have chosen to be gay, you are not a christian, but if you repent and decide to follow Christ, even though we face struggles everyday, we become Christians