Giving money to church
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Ok, I know exactly what you're saying, but please allow me to respond directly.
Talking in pseudo old-English with words the wrong way round and awkward sentence structure doesn't create an emotional response, at least not in me.
Instead it makes me think
"Why is this person not just talking straight?".
I don't mean for this to come across as rude, abrupt, or personal (and I apologise sincerely if it does), but this is something I have come across before.
Not on here but in real life.
Again, I've outlined my attitude to funding the Church in my original post.
I feel that my attitude is pragmatic and fair.
The issue isn't giving.
The issue is what the money is going to be used for and if this is in alignment with why you're giving, and whether being chased to give is acceptable.
Talking in pseudo old-English with words the wrong way round and awkward sentence structure doesn't create an emotional response, at least not in me.
Instead it makes me think
"Why is this person not just talking straight?".
I don't mean for this to come across as rude, abrupt, or personal (and I apologise sincerely if it does), but this is something I have come across before.
Not on here but in real life.
Again, I've outlined my attitude to funding the Church in my original post.
I feel that my attitude is pragmatic and fair.
The issue isn't giving.
The issue is what the money is going to be used for and if this is in alignment with why you're giving, and whether being chased to give is acceptable.
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L
Of all that I said you lock onto one statement, and then convoluted the whole post based on it.
So let me be absolutely clear (if that's possible).
So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness. Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, " He scattered abroad, He gave to the poor , His righteousness endures forever ." Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:5-10
So where does this say that a tithe is required? It don't, and neither did I!
I said the tithe is a good fundamental level to attain to; as in a personal goal. I guess to be more clear that would be for the average working and middle class Western culture Christian.
The reason I say it is a good level to attain to is because while it's not required any longer; it was and was a number Given by God himself. So if he gave that number in the law which we are no longer under it's likely that number is a good metering rod for the person with a goal to be a giver.
If you have no goal to be a giver that's none of my business, it's between you and God. You do as God directs you. My personal conviction which is what I shared is not a mandate for anyone. I simply shared my personal conviction on the matter hoping it may help shedd some light on the situation.
So let me be absolutely clear (if that's possible).
So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness. Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, " He scattered abroad, He gave to the poor , His righteousness endures forever ." Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:5-10
So where does this say that a tithe is required? It don't, and neither did I!
I said the tithe is a good fundamental level to attain to; as in a personal goal. I guess to be more clear that would be for the average working and middle class Western culture Christian.
The reason I say it is a good level to attain to is because while it's not required any longer; it was and was a number Given by God himself. So if he gave that number in the law which we are no longer under it's likely that number is a good metering rod for the person with a goal to be a giver.
If you have no goal to be a giver that's none of my business, it's between you and God. You do as God directs you. My personal conviction which is what I shared is not a mandate for anyone. I simply shared my personal conviction on the matter hoping it may help shedd some light on the situation.
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Not by not giving, but disobedience in one area generally speaks to disobedience in other areas as well. It is all a part of the works structure. One maintains their salvation through manifestations of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues on a regular basis. No tongues--no Spirit fullness. What keeps a Pentecostalist filled with the Spirit? Obedience to the by-laws of the church for one thing--and financial support is certainly incorporated in the laws of the church.
L
Sorry that you found my sentence structures akward. I was in a very boring meeting, and giving divided attention.
However, I never attempt to illicit an emotional response. (We can discuss that on another thread).
No it's not acceptable to attempt to compel a person to give. Simple enough.
There are lots of good and compelling reasons to be a giver. One is that giving comes with a promise.
So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness. Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, " He scattered abroad, He gave to the poor , His righteousness endures forever ." Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:5-10
Don't know about you but an increased harvest of righteousness is something I want, and need in my life.
However, I never attempt to illicit an emotional response. (We can discuss that on another thread).
No it's not acceptable to attempt to compel a person to give. Simple enough.
There are lots of good and compelling reasons to be a giver. One is that giving comes with a promise.
So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness. Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; as it is written, " He scattered abroad, He gave to the poor , His righteousness endures forever ." Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
2 Corinthians 9:5-10
Don't know about you but an increased harvest of righteousness is something I want, and need in my life.
That's fair enough but there are three basic things that are being brought into all of this and being mixed up with what I actually asked.
1. Giving to church generally
2. If giving is still required in the New Testament.
3. Being chased or peer pressured to give, while running a new small business where cash is so important, and also seeing money not being used to help the needy outside the church but to fund the jet set lifestyle of pastor(s) and the in-crew.
It's number 3 that I'm asking about.
1. Giving to church generally
2. If giving is still required in the New Testament.
3. Being chased or peer pressured to give, while running a new small business where cash is so important, and also seeing money not being used to help the needy outside the church but to fund the jet set lifestyle of pastor(s) and the in-crew.
It's number 3 that I'm asking about.
It appears that the main focus of the church you are attending is money centered. Of course, money should be contributed for the upkeep and various salaries if any but that should not be pounded into the congregation each week. Also, no church member should be pressured to donate, especially beyond what is actually necessary to support programs they may not even agree with. Also, all donations should be within the budget of each member. My counsel is to leave this church and find a more suitable place to worship the Lord and fellowship with other like-minded Christians.
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1. if I attend I give
2. Throughout the entire Bible we see examples in both Testament's of giving...so if you attend today...you should give
3. i would not sit under a pastor who does not do as he claims...period!! a true pastor does not lie or steal...a wolf in sheep's clothing does that. And, I would not give to a church knowing the pastor is a wolf in sheep's clothing!!
No, rational debates don't work like that.
Disguising a statement as a question and wording it in such a way that suggests anybody who answers in a certain manner is wrong, but then places the onus on them to prove that their position is valid is not how rational conversation is undertaken.
This is in part because there may be a statement in the Bible, but not its converse.
For example you asked "Can a Christian live in the open windows of heaven if they don't tithe?".
Hypothetically, the Bible may say that those who give to God will be blessed.
BUT, it doesn't say specifically that "if you don't give money to your local church, you will NOT be blessed".
So you're setting up a false dichotomy, not to mention attributing your own meaning to God's word.
If you would like to make a point, simply state it and backup your own claim.
Disguising a statement as a question and wording it in such a way that suggests anybody who answers in a certain manner is wrong, but then places the onus on them to prove that their position is valid is not how rational conversation is undertaken.
This is in part because there may be a statement in the Bible, but not its converse.
For example you asked "Can a Christian live in the open windows of heaven if they don't tithe?".
Hypothetically, the Bible may say that those who give to God will be blessed.
BUT, it doesn't say specifically that "if you don't give money to your local church, you will NOT be blessed".
So you're setting up a false dichotomy, not to mention attributing your own meaning to God's word.
If you would like to make a point, simply state it and backup your own claim.
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