God LIED!
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Not addressing anyone in particular, but all in general....and there are numerous people on this site that teach and believe that.......
a. Those who teach it can be lost <---must do something to keep it
b. Numerous people in my works thread peddle saved by faith but kept, maintained or finished by works
c. Most religions that name Christ believe it in some form or fashion........
They will all say we are saved by faith and then embellish it with kept, maintained, finished etc. by works....or if you do not have works you will lose it or are not saved......oblivious to the fact that ALL who have genuinely believed have already done the work of the Heavenly Father in belief........
a. Those who teach it can be lost <---must do something to keep it
b. Numerous people in my works thread peddle saved by faith but kept, maintained or finished by works
c. Most religions that name Christ believe it in some form or fashion........
They will all say we are saved by faith and then embellish it with kept, maintained, finished etc. by works....or if you do not have works you will lose it or are not saved......oblivious to the fact that ALL who have genuinely believed have already done the work of the Heavenly Father in belief........
I only asked because I myself have been accused of this before, and told that working "because of" salvation is the same thing as working "for" salvation, that saying my works are evidence of salvation is wrong, and that when I say my "old man" was put to death and I was made all new in Christ, that I am claiming to be sinless and/or preaching "works". I couldn't word my points more clearly, yet am told I'm preaching works salvation. That's why I'm curious to know who says "works save", or "maintains salvation". I'd just like to actually SEE it. BTW I wasn't directing this to "you" like that at all, also meant more "generally."
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I am with you on this Jimbone. Because we love Christ and want to obey Him we have been accused of using our obedience as our means of salvation. Yet I know of nobody on this forum that believes anything other than saved by grace. Our obedience does not maintain our salvation, but disobedience could very well. As Christ Put it:
Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
I think it says what it means and it means what it says. Before... until... Now...
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
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So Sketch, what do you use as a guide to tell you that your following God's ways? It it your conscience? Prov. 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Rom. 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Does this not say we still serve the law in a more spiritual way? Like what Christ expounded in the Olivet Discourse?
Rom. 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Does this not say we still serve the law in a more spiritual way? Like what Christ expounded in the Olivet Discourse?
So Sketch, what do you use as a guide to tell you that your following God's ways? It it your conscience? Prov. 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Rom. 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Does this not say we still serve the law in a more spiritual way? Like what Christ expounded in the Olivet Discourse?
Rom. 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Does this not say we still serve the law in a more spiritual way? Like what Christ expounded in the Olivet Discourse?
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
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Oh, sorry. I did not see the last line. Are you not adding the words "two Natures" to the text? Is the pot calling the kettle black here.
My interpretation is in the text. It is in the Greek grammatical tense. Even bible translators add the word "practice" in some translations.
Yours in transcribed onto the text from somewhere else.
My interpretation is in the text. It is in the Greek grammatical tense. Even bible translators add the word "practice" in some translations.
Yours in transcribed onto the text from somewhere else.
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Are you not aware the way the law is used here is the same thing as being in the flesh, Under the law is hopeless in the flesh, that's what this means here. Yes the Spirit frees us from this, but not to enjoy our sin. I don't get what you are arguing for here. What is your point with this crusade against believers wanting to be good, and that only by His power, for His glory. What is your point?
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Galatians 4:28-31
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
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Respectfully, it does not make God out to be a liar, but makes expositors guilty of misinterpreting God's word.
Hey Buddman,
This is also one of my pet peeves. I would like to point out that, all of those promises that you listed above are based on the believer continuing in faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Not a just a one-time confession, but faith from first to last. If a believer goes back to "willfully" living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered away from the truth and is accumulating sin which leads to death. It's not just "your saved no matter what you do our how you live!" Regarding this, consider what the following:
"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." - Coloss.1:23
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. - Heb.3:14
Notice the condition of "If you continue" in the scriptures above. Our part is faith. If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered away from the truth. He is no longer taking up his cross daily and is no longer producing the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, if a person remains in the that state and dies in that state, they will die in their sins. And if you don't think that a believer can lose his/her salvation, consider the following:
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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’ So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.
When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.
Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.
That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
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In the parable above, the master which represents God, forgives the mans debt, which represents the believer and our sins. The master forgives him his entire debt (all sin). Then that servant/believer goes out to one of his fellow servants/fellow believer and demands that he pay him the few dollars that he owes him. But he would not have mercy on him and instead has him thrown into prison until he can pay him back (unforgiving). Then that servant whose great debt (all sin) was forgiven ends up paying the original debt. So, in this case, not forgiving your brother from your heart can forfeit your forgiveness for your sin which God forgave you for. For Jesus confirms it at the end of the parable saying " That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you." Consider the following as well:
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." - James 5:18
In the scripture above, James starts off with "My brothers" which means that James is speaking to believers in Chris, regardless of whether Jew or Gentile. Then he says, If one of those "brothers should "wander away from the truth," which would mean to turn away from Christ and go back to living according to the sinful nature, and another believer bring that brother back to walking in faith, then when that person returns from that wandered state, a multitude of sins are covered over and their soul is saved from death, which means that in that wandered stated the believe will have been accumulating sin which leads to death.
I am not saying anything other than what scripture teaches in that, we are saved by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but faith that is from first to last - Rom.1:17.
The problem is that this teaching of "once saved, always saved" has been introduced into the world. God is not a liar, it is just that people have misinterpreted scripture. As believers in Christ, we cannot just make a single confession and then willfully go back to living according to the sinful nature, die in that state and look forward to salvation. In that case, what difference would there be between the believer who is willfully living according to the sinful nature, opposed to the unbeliever who is willfully living according to the sinful nature? Consider another example:
"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Master = Christ
Severant = Believer (in this parable, one who is an overseer of other believers)
If that believer goes back to beating his fellow servants (other believers) and begins to eat and drink with drunkards (partying), The Master (Jesus) will come back at a time when that servant/believer is not expecting him and he will assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Does sound like once saved always saved? In the parable, the believe turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature. And if he continues in it until the Lord comes or until he dies, then what is written will his fate.
It is Once saved always saved, if the believer continues in faith from first to last. If it was OSAS period, then all of the warnings about the believer willfully living according to the sinful nature would be useless.
Therefore, all of the promises of salvation are dependent upon our continuing in faith from first to last. The end of all this is that, we are saved by grace through faith. Not just a one-time faith, but faith from beginning to end.
Hey Buddman,
This is also one of my pet peeves. I would like to point out that, all of those promises that you listed above are based on the believer continuing in faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Not a just a one-time confession, but faith from first to last. If a believer goes back to "willfully" living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered away from the truth and is accumulating sin which leads to death. It's not just "your saved no matter what you do our how you live!" Regarding this, consider what the following:
"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." - Coloss.1:23
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. - Heb.3:14
Notice the condition of "If you continue" in the scriptures above. Our part is faith. If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered away from the truth. He is no longer taking up his cross daily and is no longer producing the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, if a person remains in the that state and dies in that state, they will die in their sins. And if you don't think that a believer can lose his/her salvation, consider the following:
============================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’ So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.
When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.
Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.
That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
=============================================================
In the parable above, the master which represents God, forgives the mans debt, which represents the believer and our sins. The master forgives him his entire debt (all sin). Then that servant/believer goes out to one of his fellow servants/fellow believer and demands that he pay him the few dollars that he owes him. But he would not have mercy on him and instead has him thrown into prison until he can pay him back (unforgiving). Then that servant whose great debt (all sin) was forgiven ends up paying the original debt. So, in this case, not forgiving your brother from your heart can forfeit your forgiveness for your sin which God forgave you for. For Jesus confirms it at the end of the parable saying " That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you." Consider the following as well:
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." - James 5:18
In the scripture above, James starts off with "My brothers" which means that James is speaking to believers in Chris, regardless of whether Jew or Gentile. Then he says, If one of those "brothers should "wander away from the truth," which would mean to turn away from Christ and go back to living according to the sinful nature, and another believer bring that brother back to walking in faith, then when that person returns from that wandered state, a multitude of sins are covered over and their soul is saved from death, which means that in that wandered stated the believe will have been accumulating sin which leads to death.
I am not saying anything other than what scripture teaches in that, we are saved by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but faith that is from first to last - Rom.1:17.
The problem is that this teaching of "once saved, always saved" has been introduced into the world. God is not a liar, it is just that people have misinterpreted scripture. As believers in Christ, we cannot just make a single confession and then willfully go back to living according to the sinful nature, die in that state and look forward to salvation. In that case, what difference would there be between the believer who is willfully living according to the sinful nature, opposed to the unbeliever who is willfully living according to the sinful nature? Consider another example:
"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Master = Christ
Severant = Believer (in this parable, one who is an overseer of other believers)
If that believer goes back to beating his fellow servants (other believers) and begins to eat and drink with drunkards (partying), The Master (Jesus) will come back at a time when that servant/believer is not expecting him and he will assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Does sound like once saved always saved? In the parable, the believe turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature. And if he continues in it until the Lord comes or until he dies, then what is written will his fate.
It is Once saved always saved, if the believer continues in faith from first to last. If it was OSAS period, then all of the warnings about the believer willfully living according to the sinful nature would be useless.
Therefore, all of the promises of salvation are dependent upon our continuing in faith from first to last. The end of all this is that, we are saved by grace through faith. Not just a one-time faith, but faith from beginning to end.
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Okay... Nice, it's scripture, I love it. Praise God for His word. You are completely avoiding my question though. In the scripture you quoted to me, Rom 6:7, what is this "the new way of the Spirit". You're not telling me what I am now in Christ, only what I'm free from. Yes I am now free from the law, reborn of the Spirit, reconnected with God as we were created to be, at peace, whole, in AWE of His power, free from the law. What are you telling us this means? Is this not the ONLY way we can please our Father, by His power, in His Spirit? I work only by and for His glory. Where am I falling off here? Salvation happen, cool now what? This is how He changed me, I now desire to do these things. I would have NEVER done these "works" I'm speaking of now outside Jesus forgiveness and power to reconcile me to Himself, and He commands me to testify. What's the problem here? Again what is YOUR point, don't just throw scripture at me, YOU tell me what you're getting at.
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I see another fallacy from one who believes salvation can be lost by walking away from faith or losing faith.....you guys must serve a very weak god not found in scripture....
My bible teaches the following...
Jesus BEGINS the work of faith in us
Jesus FINISHES the work of faith in US
JESUS COMPLETES the work of faith in US
Those who peddle this losable faith that causes the loss of salvation FLAT DENY the truth found in the above........IF you can lose faith and then lose salvation you never had faith and or were saved to begin with.........
My bible teaches the following...
Jesus BEGINS the work of faith in us
Jesus FINISHES the work of faith in US
JESUS COMPLETES the work of faith in US
Those who peddle this losable faith that causes the loss of salvation FLAT DENY the truth found in the above........IF you can lose faith and then lose salvation you never had faith and or were saved to begin with.........
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I will also add, the drivel about us maintaining faith all the way through to REMAIN saved also denies verb tense.......more precisely a PERFECT tense verb that has present continuing results from a PAST completed action......JESUS is the source of the faith that HE begins, finishes and COMPLETES in us!
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E
Lets not forget the passage which proves this
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
It is not us.. he perfected us forever, and he is sanctifying us in an ongoing wrk which is him acting on us
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
It is not us.. he perfected us forever, and he is sanctifying us in an ongoing wrk which is him acting on us
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