God or Guns?

[sabaqtani7]

The priests made this law? This shows the death of your hardness. You did not read the first verse, The Lord said to Moses?

The Lord also spoke through Jesus who said we are to forgive trespasses against us.

Who has more authority? Hmm ....

Also ask, if stoning was ever meant in the literal sense that we see it, then why did Jesus not advocate it?

These are things that have to be asked.

 

[superdave5221]

Moses was from the tribe of Levi the same as the priests and it has become known as the Mosaic Law. This was the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees who who followed man-made law and not Divine law. You need to remember as well, the same as in England that they had their 'Lords' like us but they are not God.

Something else people forget as well is that Judaism is not Christianity.

Even when it comes straight from the mouth of God (figuratively speaking), you still don't believe it. What is the purpose of the Law? Why was it given to the Jews?

I feel like I am debating a second grader. Your debating is illogical, unreasonable, and unScriptural. I leave you to your folly.

 

[sabaqtani7]

yep, sometimes HE does it by teaching me how to shoot straight.

I don't expect God to supernaturally do things when He can move in an manner that does not go against the laws of nature He has put forth.

You see WE are not JESUS. He does NOT tell people to be victims. abused people aren't told to just take it and not seek help. some people will twist scripture to tell the oppressed to stay oppressed and just take the abuse. However Jesus tells us about Freedom and justice.

He expects us to protect those He has placed in our trust with the means He has given to us. If the result is that we ourselves die by those means then that is a sacrifice some of us are willing to make to ensure the happiness of those we love.

There is a difference between being a victim of an atrocity, and being a perpetrator of another.

Just because someone is a victim, I won't tell them to 'take it' and not seek help. I'll say to an abused woman 'come and stay with me until you find a place', or 'I'll bring you here to talk to such and such'.

But at the same time, I won't tell her to go and buy a shotgun and murder her oppressor.

 

[PS]

yep, sometimes HE does it by teaching me how to shoot straight.

I don't expect God to supernaturally do things when He can move in an manner that does not go against the laws of nature He has put forth.

You see WE are not JESUS. He does NOT tell people to be victims. abused people aren't told to just take it and not seek help. some people will twist scripture to tell the oppressed to stay oppressed and just take the abuse. However Jesus tells us about Freedom and justice.

He expects us to protect those He has placed in our trust with the means He has given to us. If the result is that we ourselves die by those means then that is a sacrifice some of us are willing to make to ensure the happiness of those we love.

I tend to think Ariel that if we live according to the commandments of Jesus, by which means we won't offend any one or have enemies (hopefully) then I think we can be reasonably safe and secure.

Just my opinion.

 

[superdave5221]

The Lord also spoke through Jesus who said we are to forgive trespasses against us.

Who has more authority, Jesus or Moses?

Also ask, if stoning was ever meant in the literal sense that we see it, then why did Jesus not advocate it?

These are things that have to be asked.

The Lord told Moses, but God told Jesus something else? Does God change? Do you even know the basics?

Jesus did not advocate stoning in the instance you are talking about because He wanted to educate the people to the point that they were all guilty of sin and deserve death. But He, Jesus, can forgive sin and save them from their deserved fate. But this has nothing to do with lawful means of killing to protect a person's family.

 

[sabaqtani7]

The Lord told Moses, but God told Jesus something else? Does God change? Do you even know the basics?

God told Moses to 'stone'.

Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me'.

And Jesus said 'Forgive those who trespass against you'

So, again, tell me, which teaching do we abide by? Are both literal, figurative? Is one literal and the other figurative?

These are seeming contradictions in the bible's teaching.

Do not kill, and then 'stone them to death', and then 'forgive others their trespasses and God will forgive yours'.

So ... which part is lost in translation?

 

[Ariel82]

yeah and I tell you I know of women who have stalkers who used to abuse them and the only way they have not been kidnapped and murdered is because they carry a handgun in their purse because they have told me more than once of their ex husbands finding them and threatening and only leaving when threaten with a gun.

yeah the police is useful but not they normally aren't there all the time.

I don't advocate murder but i do believe if you carry a gun you should be willing to shoot to stop a person from committing a worst crime, especially if murder is in the heart and lips of the other person.

 

[PS]

The Lord also spoke through Jesus who said we are to forgive trespasses against us.

Who has more authority? Hmm ....

Also ask, if stoning was ever meant in the literal sense that we see it, then why did Jesus not advocate it?

These are things that have to be asked.

Dave, they called their idols 'Lord' Why would Jesus advocate stoning, He was against it. You should know the Jews were a law unto themselves.

 

[Ariel82]

I tend to think Ariel that if we live according to the commandments of Jesus, by which means we won't offend any one or have enemies (hopefully) then I think we can be reasonably safe and secure.

Just my opinion.

ideally you can believe that but its not true. there are twisted and sinful people out there.

 

[superdave5221]

God told Moses to 'stone'.

Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me'.

And Jesus said 'Forgive those who trespass against you'

So, again, tell me, which teaching do we abide by? Are both literal, figurative? Is one literal and the other figurative?

These are seeming contradictions in the bible's teaching.

Do not kill, and then 'stone them to death', and then 'forgive others their trespasses and God will forgive yours'.

So ... which part is lost in translation?

You constantly ramble and post Scripture which has nothing to do with the debate. Yes we are to forgive others.

BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PREVENTING A TRESPASS. Yes, if I am a Christian I will forgive a criminal if he rapes my daughter, (it might take awhile), but I will also hold myself personally responsible for it as well if I don't do everything in my power to prevent it in the first place.

 

[Ariel82]

BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PREVENTING A TRESPASS.

\
yeah sometimes facing death at the end of a gun barrel puts the "fear of God" in them. or at least makes them reevaluate their morality and if they truly ready to meet their Maker.

Hopefully they will repent of the sinful or violent act they are trying to commit and the use of lethal force will not be needed.

Personally I believe if in the right hands, a gun is a tool to have others take a deep moment to think and pray.

 

[sabaqtani7]

yeah and I tell you I know of women who have stalkers who used to abuse them and the only way they have not been kidnapped and murdered is because they carry a handgun in their purse because they have told me more than once of their ex husbands finding them and threatening and only leaving when threaten with a gun.

yeah the police is useful but not they normally aren't there all the time.

I don't advocate murder but i do believe if you carry a gun you should be willing to shoot to stop a person from committing a worst crime, especially if murder is in the heart and lips of the other person.

I disagree with violence completely. I really do believe that Jesus committed none of it, as Isaiah says.

And I do understand that the world is a pretty rough and harsh place. And it really does suck, especially to be a follower. It's so easy for people to take advantage and see us as weak.

I would never say that your friend doesn't have her reasons, even excuses, even valid ones. Because she is afraid for her life. And I believe that God will understand that.

It's tough, and what choice did she have? She's scared.

I am not saying that there is never a reason for these things, guns and the like.

I'm just questioning whether being REALLY true, and really going the extra mile and really living a Godly life is something more than the standard norm.

And this isn't me putting it on you or your friend. I'm actually asking myself 'Is there a way that I could actually forgive a person, or turn the other cheek when someone tries to murder me? How could I do that?

I suppose by taking away my fear. Finding out how God is really there nomatter what. Letting go of my worries. 'Giving up my life for God'. Killing the thoughts that lead me into violence, into retribution and vengaence.

This is me examining myself. And I am sure, confronted with the situation of someone trying to kill me, that I would try in some way to stop it.

But similarly, I then look at people like monks. Who will pacify and forgive even until their beheading. And I think 'wow, there must be the ability within a man to be like Jesus was. Able to stay non-violent even until their own end'.

And I don't see many modern day examples in Christianity. there are a few, but they are far and wide.

I wonder 'how can my forgiveness extend as far as that?'

 

[sabaqtani7]

And what I also mean is that, as both a perpetrator and a victim, the weight of guilt is much harder to bear than the weight of an oppression.

I can forgive an oppression. But It's very hard to let go of guilt.

 

[Ariel82]

just because you defend against someone doesn't mean you haven't forgiven them.

sabaqtani7

I guess its different if I didn't have anyone depending on me. I might be more willing to follow the nonviolent to the death route. However, after having kids and loved ones who would mourn and be at a loss without me, I know I would be willing to use violence to prevent someone from committing the sin of murder.

I would try my best not to kill the person because while they are alive there is hope they will repent and turn towards God.

 

[sabaqtani7]

You constantly ramble and post Scripture which has nothing to do with the debate. Yes we are to forgive others.

BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PREVENTING A TRESPASS. Yes, if I am a Christian I will forgive a criminal if he rapes my daughter, (it might take awhile), but I will also hold myself personally responsible for it as well if I don't do everything in my power to prevent it in the first place.

I understand. I'd be the same. My girflriend, if someone hurt her I'd ask 'why wasn't i there','Why didn't I protect her'. Or my mother. Or my brothers and sisters.

And I'd beat myself up, and it would never go away. But had I been there, would I really have taken another person's life? I'm not so sure I could.

It's a tough one. If I'm there, do I grab the man and stop the crime? How far do I go? What does the law of the land say? Am I guilty for killing?

I suppose it comes down to this for me; that God will understand my dilemma. And whatever decision I make, I'd believe I'm doing it for the right reasons.

IT's tough. My love for my family is strong. My hate for violence is strong.

My love for God is strong.

Is it better in God's eyes that my family is hurt, and I am also the victim, having perpetrated no action of violence against the agressor? Blessed are the meek. 'Forgive them father'. He tells Peter to put the sword away .. etc.

Or is it better that I defend my family? He who does not provide for his own, that is his household, has denied the faith .. etc.

Is it really Ok for an act of violence to be perpetrated to prevent an act of violence? One in defence versus one in attack?

 

[Ariel82]

And what I also mean is that, as both a perpetrator and a victim, the weight of guilt is much harder to bear than the weight of an oppression.

I can forgive an oppression. But It's very hard to let go of guilt.

its true but you have to pray about it because there are soldiers dealing with the guilt of taking another human life and they need to hear the Gospel and how God is able to wash them clean.

John didn't tell the soliders disobey orders but the following:

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”

 

[sabaqtani7]

its true but you have to pray about it because there are soldiers dealing with the guilt of taking another human life and they need to hear the Gospel and how God is able to wash them clean.

John didn't tell the soliders disobey orders but the following:

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”

That's true. They've gotten themselves into that position, and believe that they are doing the right thing. 'Fighting for their country'. I have a lot of sympathy for soldiers today. Lots are deceived. And that's not inherently their fault, but they've gotta be responsible and live with consequence. It's a tough thing.

I personally feel that I couldn't join an army because I feel that the cause is not proper and transparent. And that the end doesn't always justify the means.

But this is an issue that really grinds people's gears and there are a lot of opinions on either side. I feel like Jesus felt this kind of sympathy for people like soldiers. Compassion more than judgement.

I suppose it really depends on the soldier too. Are they wicked? There just to kill? Do they do atrocities?

I can't judge, but I would say that I have two friends who are soldiers, and they don't even agree with the cause.

 

[sabaqtani7]

One thing I would say that I have gleaned from under the surface of reading script is that God does understand these things. It's not always black and white (at least in a human's mind). I have learnt that God is not this high and mighty, never-say-die fanatical Lord, condescending on humanity, but rather a guide, a parent, to help us into living lives that are best for both us and those around us.

And as difficult as it may seem to accept, I do believe God has qualities that one could say are very humble and compassionate. God reserves the right to fire down on this world and kill us all at any moment, yet He sent his Son, who he loves, to die painfully for sins that he never committed. And Jesus gave himself for that. He cried, I'm sure. And it just shows how much God has 'bled' for us. And how Jesus, being the obedient son, has compassion for us.

And it makes me very compassionate towards God. I imagine myself giving God so much grief, just like I do my biological father.

It's a strange sensation. A mixture of shame, joy, guilt, compassion, tranquillity. I'm truly saying 'adonai, you deserve better from us'.

 

[sabaqtani7]

And He does. I feel like humanity needs stop for five minutes and just take check of what really matters in life. Perhaps if I'd given more money to the homeless shelter, the homeless guy wouldn't have come in my house to steal my possessions. Perhaps if that person on the news hadn't been abused, he wouldn't abuse, and if his father hadn't been abused, he wouldn't have either. Perhaps if the world just stopped and loved each other for five minutes, it might become a habit.

I've gone through every emotion under the sun at reading the bible and living in our world, and being on this site, and the one that makes me feel best is outward compassion. There's no better feeling in the world.

Perhaps there's a reason for that.

If a man came to my home for my TV, I think my pity and compassion is why I'd let him have the laptop too.

 

[CDavid]

I must now stop "casting pearl before the swine"
I shake the dust from off my feet

May God our Father and our Lord Jesus Bless you all