God, what's Water Baptism for?

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Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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But Jesus never told the 11 that at Matthew 28. We only knew that after Paul wrote his letters.

If you want to understand Matthew 28, the great commission in context, based on how the 11 understood it, you cannot anticipate revelation.
Yes Jesus told the 11 everything and opened their understanding....


And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:44-45 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 24:44-45&version=KJV
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes Jesus told the 11 everything and opened their understanding....


And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:44-45 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 24:44-45&version=KJV
You are reading into Scripture there. At no point did those verses indicated Jesus told the 11 that "the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross"

A simple proof: If what you claimed is correct, then Peter wouldn't have to resist eating unclean animals in the vision in Acts 10, nor would have told Cornelius that its against the Law for a Jew to be associated with Gentiles.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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You are reading into Scripture there. At no point did those verses indicated Jesus told the 11 that "the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross"

A simple proof: If what you claimed is correct, then Peter wouldn't have to resist eating unclean animals in the vision in Acts 10, nor would have told Cornelius that its against the Law for a Jew to be associated with Gentiles.
Jesus Christ FULFILLED ALL that was written in the Law of Moses. HE is the Law of Moses and was nailed to the cross for us.


And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:44-45 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 24:44-45&version=KJV
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Jesus Christ FULFILLED ALL that was written in the Law of Moses. HE is the Law of Moses and was nailed to the cross for us.


And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:44-45 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 24:44-45&version=KJV
The Law of Moses being nailed to the cross was a revelation revealed to the apostle Paul. You cannot find that in the Old Testament.

Furthermore, Peter’s reaction to the vision in acts 10 contradicts your doctrine.
 

Locoponydirtman

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In your human reasoning, you are misinterpreting what Peter said. Here's the Amplified Bible to help you:

1 Peter 3:18-22 Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

19 in which He also went and preached to the spirits now in prison,

20 who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.

21 Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now [a]saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God [that is, the place of honor and authority], with [all] angels and authorities and powers made subservient to Him.

Footnotes:
  1. 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
When a believer is water baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Water Baptism is a SIGN (outward public expression) of the New Covenant of Jesus' Blood and Body - that the believer by personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as Messiah - their Savior - saves them and faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to raise them from the dead - the same Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead.
Read it with out the bracketed definition, which is added; they say for clarity but it is an obvious interpretation, adding their own meaning, because neo-evangelicals like to impose their own meanings.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Heresy - Just another word for I am right and you are wrong and I am going to kill you now to shut you up!!!
First century Christians were being persecuted and were mostly in hiding, they weren't killing anyone. The one I am referring to wrote letters to the emperor in attempt to get him to stop killing Christians. He also wrote letters to other Christians in other locations to help them to stay on the path, they didn't have the Bible as we know it today, many didn't have anything more than the letters that an apostle or pastor had written them. It helps to actually study and learn church history rather than hold to the assumptions taught in secular history.
Anyway I have you a biblical account of a new testament pastor baptising in water. So you can accept the text or reject it. That's up to you.
 

Lanolin

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Dec 15, 2018
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well a rainbow doesnt save us (has anyone been saved by a rainbow, put your hands up?) but it defintiely is a good sign, brightens out day and gives us hope.
I would rather have a rainbow as a token of our covenant and a reminder that God loves us than say, thunder and lightening

as for water baptism, definetly a fun thing to do and also a sign that God loves us and a sign that WE are willing to obey Him. And just be thankful Hes not suggesting you walk through the fire.

Another thing is the Lords Supper. Now some people think oh I can just have chips and coke to remember the Lord by...but actually Jesus declared some special foods he ate on passover to remember Him by.
 

Lion222

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Jul 6, 2020
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It doesn’t do any good getting irritated with others, we all learn differently and have all kinds of doctrinal “baggage.”

Just share what you understand and leave others in God’s Hands. He’ll fix all of us! :love:(y)
Baggage, Cant bring it with you.
Might as well stop lugging it around.
 

Lion222

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Jul 6, 2020
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First century Christians were being persecuted and were mostly in hiding, they weren't killing anyone. The one I am referring to wrote letters to the emperor in attempt to get him to stop killing Christians. He also wrote letters to other Christians in other locations to help them to stay on the path, they didn't have the Bible as we know it today, many didn't have anything more than the letters that an apostle or pastor had written them. It helps to actually study and learn church history rather than hold to the assumptions taught in secular history.
Anyway I have you a biblical account of a new testament pastor baptising in water. So you can accept the text or reject it. That's up to you.
I am all for restoring the Church to its original ways.
Just saying, John baptized with water and Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
If some continued to do it like John fine. But clearly that was the foreshadowing of what was to come, what Jesus brought.
Johns baptism and john himself are the pinnacle of man under law.
But the least in the kingdom of Jesus is greater then him.
You wanna get WET before you get HOLY go for it!
The gift of the Holy Spirit is received through the laying of of Hands of someone who has already been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
But if you haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit, you just got wet.
Are you practicing the laying on of hands for receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit as well?
 

Lion222

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Jul 6, 2020
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well a rainbow doesnt save us (has anyone been saved by a rainbow, put your hands up?) but it defintiely is a good sign, brightens out day and gives us hope.
I would rather have a rainbow as a token of our covenant and a reminder that God loves us than say, thunder and lightening

as for water baptism, definetly a fun thing to do and also a sign that God loves us and a sign that WE are willing to obey Him. And just be thankful Hes not suggesting you walk through the fire.

Another thing is the Lords Supper. Now some people think oh I can just have chips and coke to remember the Lord by...but actually Jesus declared some special foods he ate on passover to remember Him by.
Thunder and lightning is just as good as any rainbow.(y)
Those are just the arrows breaking the sound barrier.
The rainbow is the bow of God, a weapon....
I love that my God and father is a powerful warrior more then able to fight for me.
That that same power that He spoke the universe into existence by is right here in my chest, inside of me.
 

Locoponydirtman

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I am all for restoring the Church to its original ways.
Just saying, John baptized with water and Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
If some continued to do it like John fine. But clearly that was the foreshadowing of what was to come, what Jesus brought.
Johns baptism and john himself are the pinnacle of man under law.
But the least in the kingdom of Jesus is greater then him.
You wanna get WET before you get HOLY go for it!
The gift of the Holy Spirit is received through the laying of of Hands of someone who has already been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
But if you haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit, you just got wet.
Are you practicing the laying on of hands for receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit as well?
That passed away with the apostles, the evidence is in scripture where the pastoral Epistles never say to continue to do so, and in the book of acts when ever Philip preached and baptized he never did that, when he was in Samaria, Peter and John came down and played hands on the disciple that Philip had baptized, and no one did that with the Ethiopian eunuch.
Wouldn't it seem odd that Philip who was full of the Holy Spirit didnt do it yet no one admonished him to? And not one word to the pastors in any letter written to them?
This was a sign to the Jews as it was prophecied that foreigners would preach to them in strange languages. This was a sign that their ways was over, this is no longer needed after 70 ad when they were scattered to the wind and the temple utterly destroyed.
Water baptism is the conveyance of the new covenant where by the seal of the Holy Spirit is placed.
 

Lion222

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Jul 6, 2020
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That passed away with the apostles, the evidence is in scripture where the pastoral Epistles never say to continue to do so, and in the book of acts when ever Philip preached and baptized he never did that, when he was in Samaria, Peter and John came down and played hands on the disciple that Philip had baptized, and no one did that with the Ethiopian eunuch.
Wouldn't it seem odd that Philip who was full of the Holy Spirit didnt do it yet no one admonished him to? And not one word to the pastors in any letter written to them?
This was a sign to the Jews as it was prophecied that foreigners would preach to them in strange languages. This was a sign that their ways was over, this is no longer needed after 70 ad when they were scattered to the wind and the temple utterly destroyed.
Water baptism is the conveyance of the new covenant where by the seal of the Holy Spirit is placed.
1 Tim 5:22 do not be to quick in the laying on of hands...
 

Corban

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The key is to understand the term "kingdom of heaven" is found in 2 places.

The Lord's prayer

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven

The 12 are to pray that God's will in heaven, to be done on Earth as well.

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

The Kingdom of heaven is at hand, this gospel of the kingdom is only for Israel. A taste of that kingdom is given to Israel because all the 12 were given signs and wonders to heal anyone and to raise the dead.

That is to show Israel that, when Jesus is reigning on Earth, that is what they can expect, no sickness, no death, no disease.

But you are correct, Israel as a nation rejected Jesus, and put him on the cross. Thus this Kingdom of Heaven is no longer "at hand".

Instead its the Kingdom of God that is promised to the Body of Christ, which, as you have stated, is heavenly. Your pt 2 and 3 will only come in the future, after the 2nd coming of Jesus.
Amen. We are in agreement. Go well bro.
 

Lion222

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1 Tim 5:22 do not be to quick in the laying on of hands...
They are two different baptisms.
For two different purposes.
One is about repentance from dead works and perhaps a clean conscience towards God.
The other is about receiving the holy spirit in power to do the work(s) of God.
 

Lion222

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Jul 6, 2020
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But you are correct, Israel as a nation rejected Jesus, and put him on the cross. Thus this Kingdom of Heaven is no longer "at hand".

Instead its the Kingdom of God that is promised to the Body of Christ, which, as you have stated, is heavenly. Your pt 2 and 3 will only come in the future, after the 2nd coming of Jesus.
Dude NOOOO.
Mat 13 and the parable of the weeds should show you the truth of what the kingdom of God really is.
Just because they where unfaithful, God remains faithful.
You risk nullify the word of God! "No longer at hand"
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:4‭-‬5 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.6.4-5.NASB

We have been buried with him.
We are United with him.

Will we be resurrected or is it only symbolic. I know you use in the likeness here to mean symbolic, but if you say we are symbolically joined to his death then we can't change the meaning when he says likeness again in raised up. Either we will be only symbolically raised up or we will be actually raised up. If we are to be actually raised up then we are actually buried.

This would also make Peter a false teacher when he says "baptism now saves you". When he contrasted baptism with the flood. Because he says it straight forward, that corresponding to the flood that God brought only 8 people through, that baptism now saves you. So if God actually saved those 8 through the flood then corresponding to that baptism must also actually save you.
You did not say anything different. Other than you emphasized incorrectly what symbolic.
 

Lion222

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Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Matthew 19:23). In the very next verse, Christ proclaims, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (verse 24). Jesus makes no distinction between the two terms but seems to consider them synonymous.

Mark and Luke used “kingdom of God” where Matthew used “kingdom of heaven” frequently in parallel accounts of the same parable
 

Locoponydirtman

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1 Tim 5:22 do not be to quick in the laying on of hands...
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
1 Timothy 5:19‭-‬22 NASB
Context matters .
They laid hands on people to confer ministry office, to heal sick, and many other reasons. Here is is talking about not being joined in their sin. That would be about passing along the Holy Spirit.
 

Lion222

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Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
1 Timothy 5:19‭-‬22 NASB
Context matters .
They laid hands on people to confer ministry office, to heal sick, and many other reasons. Here is is talking about not being joined in their sin. That would be about passing along the Holy Spirit.
Yes.
Why would it not?
The context is perfectly fitting.

Where do you think the practice of laying on of hands to confer power and authority to an elder comes from?
It is the same laying on of hands for the same purpose.

Being a part of theirs sins as in giving it to people who are not ready for it
 

Locoponydirtman

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Yes.
Why would it not?
The context is perfectly fitting.

Where do you think the practice of laying on of hands to confer power and authority to an elder comes from?
It is the same laying on of hands for the same purpose.

Being a part of theirs sins as in giving it to people who are not ready for it
So you do know that is in context of conferring office of the ministry, and not "baptism of the Holy Spirit".