God, what's Water Baptism for?

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Guojing

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Yes, over Israel now.

Who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Are they literal keys?

if the keys of David are spiritual why would you think the Throne of David would not be?

The throne of David is the lordship of the saints aka Israel - The children according to faith in the promise.

There are not two different paths or two different kingdoms.
In the end the children according to the flesh of Jacob, get included in the Israel according to faith in the promise.
At that time the physical people do have some very special tasks.
Especially if you are a virgin and male.


We have already established that the kingdom of God and the Kingdom are used interchangeable in the gospels and by Jesus in about the same sentence.


But who is Israel?
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. - Jesus

Israel has always been the chosen of God.
The chosen of God has always been Israel.

The physical people like the law where stewards, keepers of the promises of God or the singular promise of God in that they all are found in Christ Jesus.
The promises where never to the physical seed of Abraham but the singular seed, that being Christ.

The child of faith and child of promise is always how Abraham's children have been counted.
No according to the flesh, not the natural branch.

The natural physical people where cut off from the promises (or the promised one, the promised kingdom if you like)
But we are grafted into that promise and become citizen of Israel and are placed under the lordship of Christ and his rule of that kingdom.
The throne of David is the rule of Israel, not the physical Jew but the Spiritual descendants of the father of faith, Abraham the father of many nations (not one physical nation).

Jesus says his kingdom not of this world or his disciples would fight.
His kingdom is spiritual and so His throne would be also spiritual.

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh (that is the Jews according to the flesh) by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one ( that is one Israel, one citizenship in one kingdom ) and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, (two different flesh into one new spirit man fit for a spiritual kingdom) thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens(in regards to citizenship of Israel), but you are fellow citizens with the saints (AKA The Israel of God, AKA Gods chosen), and are of God’s household ,(which is what it means to be Israel)

It has never been according to the flesh.

One house, one new race, one new nation
So the doctrine you hold is that the current body of Christ is spiritual Israel?
 

Lion222

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So the doctrine you hold is that the current body of Christ is spiritual Israel?
If spiritual Israel is something other then the body of Christ, then they are dead in there trespasses and sins. As far as current body I read nothing of Jesus switching bodies or finding a second bride. Their is no other path, no other body, or race or people or nation, just the promised one (not two).
 

Guojing

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If spiritual Israel is something other then the body of Christ, then they are dead in there trespasses and sins. As far as current body I read nothing of Jesus switching bodies or finding a second bride. Their is no other path, no other body, or race or people or nation, just the promised one (not two).
Paul distinguished between the nation of Israel and gentiles who believed in Romans 9 to 11.

I will provide 2 examples for you

Romans 9:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So, in both of them, a clear distinction is made between Israel, which refers to the nation, his kinsmen according to the flesh, and the Body of Christ.
 

Lion222

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Paul distinguished between the nation of Israel and gentiles who believed in Romans 9 to 11.

I will provide 2 examples for you

Romans 9:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So, in both of them, a clear distinction is made between Israel, which refers to the nation, his kinsmen according to the flesh, and the Body of Christ.
Like Jesus said not all Israel are Israel.
The term is use of both the physical and the Spiritual.
above it is clearly used of the physical only.
It just strengthens my point,
 

Lion222

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until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (into what?)
and so all Israel shall be saved (Into the spiritual Israel?)
Because it is clear all physical Israel is not saved or some would not be blinded to Christ.
if it was about some time in the future all who are left of the physical people are saved then why does it say "and so"
"and so" means the above bit fulfilled the the next bit
That being the fullness of the Gentiles coming is part of all Israel being saved.


take that and add to it the verse
you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel,

It makes clear that being separate or not from Christ is being separate or not from Israel. That is the Spiritual Israel.
 

Guojing

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Like Jesus said not all Israel are Israel.
The term is use of both the physical and the Spiritual.
above it is clearly used of the physical only.
It just strengthens my point,
So do you agree there the Body of Christ is not the nation Israel?

For example, when you read Hebrews 8:8

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Would you place the Body of Christ in that verse as either of the 2 houses?
 

Guojing

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until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (into what?)
and so all Israel shall be saved (Into the spiritual Israel?)
Because it is clear all physical Israel is not saved or some would not be blinded to Christ.
if it was about some time in the future all who are left of the physical people are saved then why does it say "and so"
"and so" means the above bit fulfilled the the next bit
That being the fullness of the Gentiles coming is part of all Israel being saved.


take that and add to it the verse
you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel,

It makes clear that being separate or not from Christ is being separate or not from Israel. That is the Spiritual Israel.
There is no such thing as spiritual Israel in my books.

Israel is the nation. The Body of Christ is separate from Israel.

God still has a plan for the nation Israel, as Romans 11 clearly states
 

Lion222

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So do you agree there the Body of Christ is not the nation Israel?

For example, when you read Hebrews 8:8

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Would you place the Body of Christ in that verse as either of the 2 houses?
Not the physical people, no.
The new covenant is the promise of Christ. realized
 

Lion222

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There is no such thing as spiritual Israel in my books.

Israel is the nation. The Body of Christ is separate from Israel.

God still has a plan for the nation Israel, as Romans 11 clearly states
So was Jesus talking nonsense when He said not all Israel are Israel?
When Jesus clearly delineated between those who are of the flesh and those who are of the Spirit of Israel?
What do you do with that?

Yes the physical people still have a role to play I believe.
But just as we are a new race we also are a new nation. a spiritual nation.
 

Guojing

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So was Jesus talking nonsense when He said not all Israel are Israel?
When Jesus clearly delineated between those who are of the flesh and those who are of the Spirit of Israel?
What do you do with that?

Yes the physical people still have a role to play I believe.
But just as we are a new race we also are a new nation. a spiritual nation.
Are you talking about what Paul stated in Romans 9:6?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Blain

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So the doctrine you hold is that the current body of Christ is spiritual Israel?
Yes we are the spiritual Israel. In god's p[lan he always used Israel even today there is a clear warning on harming Israel he is very protective of them even if right now they are lost in their ways but they have always been the apple of his eye his children of the promised covenant that came and was fulfilled in Christ.
We coming into his body are then brought into this covenant and thus made his children, salvation is not excluded from Israel in fact it is promised and that time is closer than most think. Israel has a position and a standing with God as do we he brought in his sacrifice the bonds that were seperate togther God and man jews and gentiles there are no longer jews and gentiles only in Christ. I am of Jewish descent but my blood does not make me any different than one who isn't.
 

Guojing

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Yes we are the spiritual Israel. In god's p[lan he always used Israel even today there is a clear warning on harming Israel he is very protective of them even if right now they are lost in their ways but they have always been the apple of his eye his children of the promised covenant that came and was fulfilled in Christ.
We coming into his body are then brought into this covenant and thus made his children, salvation is not excluded from Israel in fact it is promised and that time is closer than most think. Israel has a position and a standing with God as do we he brought in his sacrifice the bonds that were seperate togther God and man jews and gentiles there are no longer jews and gentiles only in Christ. I am of Jewish descent but my blood does not make me any different than one who isn't.
For me, I regard us as the Body of Christ. We were formed because the nation Israel has rejected their Messiah, for the final time by stoning Stephen.

But we are not Israel in any sense, literal or spiritual. God still has a plan for Israel, which Paul described in Romans 11, which will take place during the Tribulation.

Its like the story of Joseph in Genesis. In their first meeting, Joseph's brothers could not recognize him, and Joseph had an Egyptian/foreign bride to comfort him. But in their 2nd meeting, Joseph will reveal himself to his brothers and they will all accept him.
 

Blain

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For me, I regard us as the Body of Christ. We were formed because the nation Israel has rejected their Messiah, for the final time by stoning Stephen.

But we are not Israel in any sense, literal or spiritual. God still has a plan for Israel, which Paul described in Romans 11, which will take place during the Tribulation.

Its like the story of Joseph in Genesis. In their first meeting, Joseph's brothers could not recognize him, and Joseph had an Egyptian/foreign bride to comfort him. But in their 2nd meeting, Joseph will reveal himself to his brothers and they will all accept him.
Yes we are the body of Christ however if we are the body then what is Israel? They rejected him yes but not all of them did we gentiles also reject him but not all that is why there are so many unbelievers.
Jews gentiles none of that matters in Christ he loves all his sheep. Does a shepherd not leave the entire flock to chase after one lost sheep? is that sheep when found not brought back into the same herd? love is not picky and does not choose favor over one or the other, regardless of our origins he accepts and loves all who come to him whether that be isral or us to exclude israel as not part of the body would not be love.

Jesus was both physically God and spiritually a perfect representation of the physical and spiritual Israel but one body one king one savior and one heart and mind
I am both Jew and gentile but I am one person I am in the body of Christ. I have memebrs of my family who reside in Israel but does that mean my Jewish blood would exclude me from the body of Christ? because if the physical blood of Israel runs in my viens then if the covanent was given to the gentiles but not also to the jews then that would mean I would be excluded because of my origins and the blood of Israel in me which is physical
 

Guojing

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Yes we are the body of Christ however if we are the body then what is Israel? They rejected him yes but not all of them did we gentiles also reject him but not all that is why there are so many unbelievers.
Jews gentiles none of that matters in Christ he loves all his sheep. Does a shepherd not leave the entire flock to chase after one lost sheep? is that sheep when found not brought back into the same herd? love is not picky and does not choose favor over one or the other, regardless of our origins he accepts and loves all who come to him whether that be isral or us to exclude israel as not part of the body would not be love.

Jesus was both physically God and spiritually a perfect representation of the physical and spiritual Israel but one body one king one savior and one heart and mind
I am both Jew and gentile but I am one person I am in the body of Christ. I have memebrs of my family who reside in Israel but does that mean my Jewish blood would exclude me from the body of Christ? because if the physical blood of Israel runs in my viens then if the covanent was given to the gentiles but not also to the jews then that would mean I would be excluded because of my origins and the blood of Israel in me which is physical
In this current age, the nation Israel has fallen and is now an enemy with God (Romans 11:28), just like all the gentile nations were enemies with God since Genesis 12.

If you are an ethnic Jew, as what Paul would say in Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, then you are also in the Body of Christ, a remnant of Israel that God preserved.

Some people believe that such Jews who believe will be part of the 144,000 during the Tribulation. I am curious though, are you looking forward to being in that group?
 

Blain

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In this current age, the nation Israel has fallen and is now an enemy with God (Romans 11:28), just like all the gentile nations were enemies with God since Genesis 12.

If you are an ethnic Jew, as what Paul would say in Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, then you are also in the Body of Christ, a remnant of Israel that God preserved.

Some people believe that such Jews who believe will be part of the 144,000 during the Tribulation. I am curious though, are you looking forward to being in that group?
Whether or not I am a part of that group I do not know but yes I actually asked God in my first year of salvation to serve him and others in the tribulation, I sought after a kind of love that is far deeper far more rich far more beautiful and intimate than anyone has ever known with him, whether I can have this or not even I do not but I still to this seek it.

This for me is what it really means to be strong, what it really means to be a Christian but I didn't seek this strnegth merely for myself. The strong have an obligation to stand for those who cannot to uphold and strengthen the weak and persicuted, they are strong for the sake of others and use that strength for the very reason Jesus died on the cross- Love.

I do not know if this would be any evidence of me beingg in the 144,000 but I was marked by mine on my forhead when I was a new believer, he and I were having a very intimate moment together in which he and I were pouring our love and affection for each other into each others hearts it was like a language being spoken without words but the depth of the love being poured on both side was immense. I saw in my minds eye his heart and I affectionately branded it with the words mine and as I did he branded my forehead with the same words.

I also had a vision soon after thaty where I saw a dove flying towards me carring a scroll with a red seal on it it came to me and when I accepted the scroll my eyes and my entire body was consumed in a blazing fire and I somehow knew that many others around the world at the very same time experienced this. The seal was not broken because it was not time for it to be unsealed and I only knew this scroll was my calling the vision ended after that.
 

Lion222

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Are you talking about what Paul stated in Romans 9:6?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Yeah sorry I was thinking of John 8 which is a stated reality of this verse by Jesus.
Where Jesus acknowledges they are of Abraham's sperm but says Abraham is not their Father the Devil is.
That they where physical decedents but not spiritual ones so Abraham was not their true father in the eyes of Jesus and God.
That is why Abraham is the Father of all who believe by Faith.
The same reason there is a spiritual Israel as is His chosen.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil,
 
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blood is blood, no matter where the 'world tries to draw and define it' -
All of God's children will 'hear HIM, and arise at His/their appointed time'...
 

Guojing

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Yeah sorry I was thinking of John 8 which is a stated reality of this verse by Jesus.
Where Jesus acknowledges they are of Abraham's sperm but says Abraham is not their Father the Devil is.
That they where physical decedents but not spiritual ones so Abraham was not their true father in the eyes of Jesus and God.
That is why Abraham is the Father of all who believe by Faith.
The same reason there is a spiritual Israel as is His chosen.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil,
Yes, the entire book of John is about the signs that Jesus performed to Israel for them to believe he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31)

John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

But despite the 8 signs he performed in John, Israel still refuse to accept him. The 7th sign, which was the raising of Lazarus, had so many Jews believing in him that the leaders of Israel knew they had to kill him before the entire nation ended up believing in him

45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

God ordained that, for Israel, as their leaders go, so goes the nation (1 Kings 15:34). So you are correct, Israel as a nation has rejected their Messiah, which goes against what Moses told them in Deut 18

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

As of now, only a remnant of Israel believed in Jesus, the nation has fallen.
 
Apr 18, 2017
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You know....in Revelation 21, the Wall of Jerusalem is made up of ONLY Israel- NO Gentiles in the Foundations or Walls at all.

However, the City of Jerusalem is ALL nations, tongues, people. The Lamb's Wife is the New Jerusalem.......I wonder if the Wall is part of the New Jerusalem? I would think it is........so, there is a distinction - a special purpose only for Israel.

God is good and has not, and will never forget Israel! :love:(y)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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You know....in Revelation 21, the Wall of Jerusalem is made up of ONLY Israel- NO Gentiles in the Foundations or Walls at all.

However, the City of Jerusalem is ALL nations, tongues, people. The Lamb's Wife is the New Jerusalem.......I wonder if the Wall is part of the New Jerusalem? I would think it is........so, there is a distinction - a special purpose only for Israel.

God is good and has not, and will never forget Israel! :love:(y)
I wonder if in the millinuim age reigning with Christ for a thousand years has something to do with it? Or perhaps when the new heaven and earth are made? Jerusalem is called the holy city so I wonder if maybe it being the holy city has something to do with it:unsure: