God, what's Water Baptism for?

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Oct 9, 2018
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You did not say anything different. Other than you emphasized incorrectly what symbolic.
I guess it's possible that I were not clear. If in context one is symbolic so is the other. They either both are or neither are. That's how language works.
I tell ya what, you can be symbolically joined to him in his death, and then symbolically raised up. I will be actually joined to him in his death, and therefore actually raised up.
Sound good to you? Ok cool.
 
Oct 9, 2018
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This argument comes down to symbolism vs reality. I choose reality. Yes really joined to him in his death, yes really dead to sin, and yes really raised up. Y'all can have all the symbology y'all want, I prefer actuality.
 
Jul 6, 2020
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So you do know that is in context of conferring office of the ministry, and not "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
I get that you think there is a difference.
All authority is of the Spirit, authority in Spirit is also power in Spirit.
All roles of ministry as such are conferred by the Spirit not simply the will of man.

It is an amazing thing to consider.
"what I do have I give you. "
 
Jul 6, 2020
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This argument comes down to symbolism vs reality. I choose reality. Yes really joined to him in his death, yes really dead to sin, and yes really raised up. Y'all can have all the symbology y'all want, I prefer actuality.
Do not be deceived it is the righteous who are righteous.
Im all for the reality.

Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Not an apostle.
Most likely a Greek considering his name.
The gift is greater then you think!
 
May 23, 2012
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I guess it's possible that I were not clear. If in context one is symbolic so is the other. They either both are or neither are. That's how language works.
I tell ya what, you can be symbolically joined to him in his death, and then symbolically raised up. I will be actually joined to him in his death, and therefore actually raised up.
Sound good to you? Ok cool.
symbolic does not change the truth of the Actual death burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. WE are saved by faith in The Lord Jesus Christ and you and I have not actually seen HIM Die and raise again. IT is faith we accept the as Truth. Water baptism doesn't save you no more than circumcision saved Abraham. the context od symbolism is the water which one is baptized in. iT is faith that moves one to be baptized not believe after one is baptized. You are just being argumentative about the sister application.
 
May 23, 2012
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This argument comes down to symbolism vs reality. I choose reality. Yes really joined to him in his death, yes really dead to sin, and yes really raised up. Y'all can have all the symbology y'all want, I prefer actuality.
it is both. because you may not like it but the Bible has symbolism and prophecy , and literal context. Baptism in the word of God if you like it our not, has both. It is not symbolism vs reality it its all context to the subject I guess you hold the the doctrine of false doctrine of " Transubstantiation" where the wine and bread turn into the literal Blood & Body of Jesus ?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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it is both. because you may not like it but the Bible has symbolism and prophecy , and literal context. Baptism in the word of God if you like it our not, has both. It is not symbolism vs reality it its all context to the subject I guess you hold the the doctrine of false doctrine of " Transubstantiation" where the wine and bread turn into the literal Blood & Body of Jesus ?
That is what I love about the bible and why I love to liken it to an onion or the earths crust it has many layers. I love how sometimes what appears to be literal is actually symbolic and the more understanding the holy spirit gives us the deeper we can see into tose aspects.

What good is it to search for gold without a little digging?
 
Jul 6, 2020
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That is what I love about the bible and why I love to liken it to an onion or the earths crust it has many layers. I love how sometimes what appears to be literal is actually symbolic and the more understanding the holy spirit gives us the deeper we can see into tose aspects.

What good is it to search for gold without a little digging?
Layers, Onions, like Ogres ? :LOL:
 
Oct 9, 2018
2,823
1,696
113
Texas
it is both. because you may not like it but the Bible has symbolism and prophecy , and literal context. Baptism in the word of God if you like it our not, has both. It is not symbolism vs reality it its all context to the subject I guess you hold the the doctrine of false doctrine of " Transubstantiation" where the wine and bread turn into the literal Blood & Body of Jesus ?
No not transubstantiation, something a bit different. While the material is wine and bread, the substance in blood and body. Jesus was clear about this too. He said, (after saying you must eat my body and drink my blood and his disciples balked at it a bit) my words are spirit and truth. So yes it is bread and wine, but it is blood and body. And no not symbolic, but is. I know this isn't easy fro folks to understand but spirit is not symbols, spirit is real. Spirit and truth, not symbolic.
Like I said believe what ya want. I will believe what is actually written with out trying to impose my logic to it. I will walk by faith. Y'all do what ya want.
 
Oct 9, 2018
2,823
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Do not be deceived it is the righteous who are righteous.
Im all for the reality.

Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

Not an apostle.
Most likely a Greek considering his name.
The gift is greater then you think!
Yet he didn't confer upon anyone the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only after Peter and John got there did they lay hands on people got the gifting of the Holy Spirit. This kind of helps my point.
Also while I disagree with the Pentecost interpretation of these things I not a cessationist. I just believe the Pentecostal interpretation is wrong, very very wrong. I hope not damnably wrong, but that's not my call, thank the Lord. Therefore I say believe what you think you ought because ultimately we all stand or fall before the Lord.
So I live by this axiom, study to show thyself approved.
 
May 23, 2012
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No not transubstantiation, something a bit different. While the material is wine and bread, the substance in blood and body. Jesus was clear about this too. He said, (after saying you must eat my body and drink my blood and his disciples balked at it a bit) my words are spirit and truth. So yes it is bread and wine, but it is blood and body. And no not symbolic, but is. I know this isn't easy fro folks to understand but spirit is not symbols, spirit is real. Spirit and truth, not symbolic.
Like I said believe what ya want. I will believe what is actually written with out trying to impose my logic to it. I will walk by faith. Y'all do what ya want.
Hey we are trying to impose his human logic? Nope , not at all. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God. You can have it all to yourself guy.
 
Oct 9, 2018
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I get that you think there is a difference.
All authority is of the Spirit, authority in Spirit is also power in Spirit.
All roles of ministry as such are conferred by the Spirit not simply the will of man.

It is an amazing thing to consider.
"what I do have I give you. "
I agree with this statement.
I do not believe the practice of Pentecostalism where by they "baptized in the Holy Spirit". They lay hands on everyone expecting them to speak in tongues, and or fall on the ground ( the later of which I have never seen any form of support for scripturally). There is a stark difference between what they practice and what is in scripture. Baptism in water joins you to Christ in his death, and therefore also in his resurrection. The laying on of hand confers the office of the ministry. Yes all by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the works or authority of man. Just because we participate and God uses us in contact with the world does not make it a work of our doing. No different than preaching, we say the Gospel, the Holy Spirit imbues those words with power to convict and to persuade the heart of Christ. We simply say words that he gave us to say, ( He gave those words in writing in scripture, so we don't have to make them up ourselves).
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Dude NOOOO.
Mat 13 and the parable of the weeds should show you the truth of what the kingdom of God really is.
Just because they where unfaithful, God remains faithful.
You risk nullify the word of God! "No longer at hand"
I didn't say that God did not remain unfaithful to Israel.

Paul himself explained in Romans 11.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This will happen in the future.
 
Jul 6, 2020
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Yet he didn't confer upon anyone the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only after Peter and John got there did they lay hands on people got the gifting of the Holy Spirit. This kind of helps my point.
Also while I disagree with the Pentecost interpretation of these things I not a cessationist. I just believe the Pentecostal interpretation is wrong, very very wrong. I hope not damnably wrong, but that's not my call, thank the Lord. Therefore I say believe what you think you ought because ultimately we all stand or fall before the Lord.
So I live by this axiom, study to show thyself approved.
I agree its messed up.
Error on both sides of the narrow path.

the misuse on one side
the failure to use on the other.

You do know not everything was written down.
From any account you can not exclude what it does not exclude.

I guess one axiom for me would be,
"if you think you know, you have yet to know as you should"
You know it when you live it.
Until then we are just a bunch of peeping tom's, Simple Simon's, Smart Alex's, Plain Jane's and Chatty Cathy's
 
Jul 6, 2020
489
153
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www.restoring.chruch
I agree with this statement.
I do not believe the practice of Pentecostalism where by they "baptized in the Holy Spirit". They lay hands on everyone expecting them to speak in tongues, and or fall on the ground ( the later of which I have never seen any form of support for scripturally). There is a stark difference between what they practice and what is in scripture. Baptism in water joins you to Christ in his death, and therefore also in his resurrection. The laying on of hand confers the office of the ministry. Yes all by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the works or authority of man. Just because we participate and God uses us in contact with the world does not make it a work of our doing. No different than preaching, we say the Gospel, the Holy Spirit imbues those words with power to convict and to persuade the heart of Christ. We simply say words that he gave us to say, ( He gave those words in writing in scripture, so we don't have to make them up ourselves).
Yeah but my sheep hear my voice right?
They follow that... right?

The written word is what we use to test the spirits and develop discernment about spiritual things.
We serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (written words of God)
Our faith should not rest in words but in the power of God.

Just because Satan took a big dump in front of the armory should not stop us from going there and being equipped to fight
 
Jul 6, 2020
489
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www.restoring.chruch
I didn't say that God did not remain unfaithful to Israel.

Paul himself explained in Romans 11.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This will happen in the future.
OH OK.
But I still say you are wrong about the two kingdom of God.
A house divided, that's not His way.
The word speaks of the two interchangeably.
The kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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OH OK.
But I still say you are wrong about the two kingdom of God.
A house divided, that's not His way.
The word speaks of the two interchangeably.
The kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.
Luke 1
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Do you think Jesus is reigning over Israel now, sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem?
 

Lion222

Active member
Jul 6, 2020
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Luke 1
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Do you think Jesus is reigning over Israel now, sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem?
Yes, over Israel now.

Who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Are they literal keys?

if the keys of David are spiritual why would you think the Throne of David would not be?

The throne of David is the lordship of the saints aka Israel - The children according to faith in the promise.

There are not two different paths or two different kingdoms.
In the end the children according to the flesh of Jacob, get included in the Israel according to faith in the promise.
At that time the physical people do have some very special tasks.
Especially if you are a virgin and male.


We have already established that the kingdom of God and the Kingdom are used interchangeable in the gospels and by Jesus in about the same sentence.


But who is Israel?
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. - Jesus

Israel has always been the chosen of God.
The chosen of God has always been Israel.

The physical people like the law where stewards, keepers of the promises of God or the singular promise of God in that they all are found in Christ Jesus.
The promises where never to the physical seed of Abraham but the singular seed, that being Christ.

The child of faith and child of promise is always how Abraham's children have been counted.
No according to the flesh, not the natural branch.

The natural physical people where cut off from the promises (or the promised one, the promised kingdom if you like)
But we are grafted into that promise and become citizen of Israel and are placed under the lordship of Christ and his rule of that kingdom.
The throne of David is the rule of Israel, not the physical Jew but the Spiritual descendants of the father of faith, Abraham the father of many nations (not one physical nation).

Jesus says his kingdom not of this world or his disciples would fight.
His kingdom is spiritual and so His throne would be also spiritual.

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh (that is the Jews according to the flesh) by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one ( that is one Israel, one citizenship in one kingdom ) and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, (two different flesh into one new spirit man fit for a spiritual kingdom) thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens(in regards to citizenship of Israel), but you are fellow citizens with the saints (AKA The Israel of God, AKA Gods chosen), and are of God’s household ,(which is what it means to be Israel)

It has never been according to the flesh.

One house, one new race, one new nation