GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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This is true, Jesus was their High Priest now, The Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement if sins, as the Law of Moses prescribed, has been replaced by the Promise of the Word which became Flesh in Jer. 31.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, but I do. Blessed be the Name of the Lord Jesus.



I don't need a Moody Bible school course to figure this one out. This is Bible 101, you should be way past this simple truth.

When you admit that it was you who was wrong about Jesus calling the Pharisees "children of satan", then I might be obliged to answer another question.
I could care less if you answer me directly or not. I can prove you wrong either way.

for the record, I never denied that Christ said what He said about the Pharisees. He did say it. He also called Peter Satan .
Christ also said the Pharisees were searching the Scriptures for eternal life.

this is why we should not isolate Scripture and build opinion based theology around it.

and, for the 10th time, you have the wrong covenant . Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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one piece of information which may be beneficial is that the King James doesn't seem to use quotation marks.

if we use this translation, which I believe is used above in the post by Studyman, the quotes make a big difference

Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=HCSB

note the use of the double quotes versus the single quotes, indicating who is saying what.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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there's no punctuation in the original language at all; it's interpretive.

compare Luke's account of the same conversation:

And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them."
(Luke 21:8)

the "He" is italicized here ((in NKJV)) - it's not in the text. what Luke literally records is "many will come in My name, saying 'I AM'"
-- therefore do not go after them.
wherefore?
because they say "I AM" and "the time draws near"

how does it make sense,
they say Jesus is the Christ, therefore don't follow them?
are we supposed to conclude that everyone who proclaims that Jesus is the Messiah is a deceiver?


it's interesting to note, though, that cults like the JW and LDS give lip service, saying Jesus is the Christ, but they completely redefine the word 'Christ' and 'Messiah' -- so that it becomes heresy when you probe what they believe, though it sounds nice externally.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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You seem to preach that the reason the Law killed us is because we followed it. And Jesus saved us by paying the death our obedience caused so we can create your own religion now, each to his own, and transgress the Commandments of God by our own religious traditions.
you seem to slanderously pull this out of thin air.

please point to exactly what makes you think i've ever said the Law kills a man because he obeys it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But I already broke His Commandments, so I am "dead in my sins", I am under the "curse" of the Law, "the wages of sin is death". But Jesus has freed me from this death,
amen

He has given me a new chance to "Pick up my cross and follow Him" this time, instead of guiding my own footsteps which caused my death in the first place, I will not only have His Commandments, but this time I will strive, with His help, to follow His Instructions. Not the religions of the land as you preach, but the righteous instructions of the Word which became Flesh.
this sure sounds like you're trusting in works.
His salvation, as the scripture describes it, is not 'a second chance to attain a righteousness of your own' ((see: Philippians 3:9, e.g)) by keeping a list of commandments through your striving. His salvation is a righteousness imputed through faith, through immersion into Him, His death, and His life. this excludes boasting. can a person point to 'physical, ritual sabbath keeping' as making them more righteous than someone else, who considers all days alike? then boasting isn't excluded, and they're no longer talking about the same gospel preached in the scripture; not a message of redemption by grace through faith, but a gospel of works.


it does not depend on human will & exertion ((re: Romans 9:16)) but on God who has mercy. i don't get this 'from men' - i get this from believing what the Word says, without trying to change it, without trying to justify myself, without trying to compare myself to others, setting myself up as some kind of inquisitor.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This is saying that "many" will come in His Name.

Every self proclaimed Christian preacher since the Pope claims to "Come in the Name of Jesus Christ". Every single one of them Preach Jesus is truly the Christ.

Mormons, Catholics, AOG, Methodists, Baptists, the list goes on and on. They all "come in Christ's name, preaching that Jesus is truly the Son of God. Not the Jews Dan, Jesus isn't talking about Jews who don't preach He is the Son of God, who don't come in the Name of Jesus. Not Islam, who doesn't come in Christ's name, who don't preach that Jesus is truly the Christ. But Self Proclaimed Christians, that is who jesus warned about in the last days.

It's right there in your Bible.

These who come in His name will claim that Jesus is the Christ, not that they are the Christ. At least that's what the text says. How could man deceive anyone by claiming he is God? But claiming he is from God, or was sent by God (in His Name) that guy could deceive, like the Protestants claim the Pope did..

Paul says basically the same thing in another place.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

They don't transform themselves into Christ as your preaching suggests, they become "ministers" of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Why would "Many" follow a Path to destruction? Could it be because they have been convinced by the father of lies that their Path leads to life, not destruction? Isn't that what satan convinced Eve of in the first place? And once again Jesus says "Many" will "go in" on the broad Path followed by the majority. This is in perfect line with the theme through out the Bible. Caleb vs. the rest of the Jews. Noah vs. the people of the world. Abraham vs. Sodom and Gomorrah, The Pharisees vs. Zechariahs and Elizabeth, Stephen vs. the Mainstream Church of his time, Jesus and the Mainstream Jewish religion which taught for doctrines the commandments of men, the examples continue.

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



"Few" is not the majority no matter what scriptures you alter to try and make it this way.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is my issue with your modern religion. You have the tradition first, then you try and make the scriptures fit it. And when someone sheds light on this, you stop your ears and close your eyes. IMO.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

He that endures to the end shall be saved!

He that does not allow iniquity to abound; therefore their Love in them is fervent! Boiling hot through the Spirit.
Christ in them the hope of Glory!

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What Gospel? He that endures to the end shall be saved.

I find it quite interesting that verse 14 can be translated like this Yet the one remaining under, into consummation; this one shall be saved.

Consummation; End; Finish of what?

Faith! Real Faith!

For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith of Christ Jesus. For we keep (guard) the Commandments and Faith of Jesus Christ. The Testimony of Jesus Christ, "There is none good but GOD; HE doeth the work". For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
 

lightbearer

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the death in Romans 7:1 is the death of Romans 6: Christ's death, and He did not perish by being condemned by the Law, but gave Himself as our ransom.

do you believe it?
Romans 6:11? The whole premise of the chapter is our death and resurrection in Him. And on this premise Paul moves into chapter seven. It is our Spiritual death and resurrection to which he speaks not Christ's on our behalf.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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there's no punctuation in the original language at all; it's interpretive.

compare Luke's account of the same conversation:

And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them."
(Luke 21:8)

the "He" is italicized here ((in NKJV)) - it's not in the text. what Luke literally records is "many will come in My name, saying 'I AM'"
-- therefore do not go after them.
wherefore?
because they say "I AM" and "the time draws near"


how does it make sense,
they say Jesus is the Christ, therefore don't follow them?
are we supposed to conclude that everyone who proclaims that Jesus is the Messiah is a deceiver?


it's interesting to note, though, that cults like the JW and LDS give lip service, saying Jesus is the Christ, but they completely redefine the word 'Christ' and 'Messiah' -- so that it becomes heresy when you probe what they believe, though it sounds nice externally.
JW and Mormons you use as examples are good examples. They both come in Christ's name, they both preach that Jesus is truly the Christ. But as you have stated, they are deceivers in your view because they have "Re-defined" the Word of God.

So they don't run around claiming to be Jesus do they? Of course not. But they do come in Christ's, and they do preach Jesus is the Messiah. They do "re-define" God's Word as you have said, so we should "Take Heed" that we are not tricked by their preaching.

How can you preach this isn't the message Jesus gives His Disciples in Matt. 24.

how does it make sense,
they say Jesus is the Christ, therefore don't follow them?


Isn't that exactly what you just said about the Mormons and the JW.

Jesus isn't over there in the JW church, He isn't over there in the Mormon church, He is here in this church. The Mormons say the same thing about you, and the Baptists say the same thing about the Catholics. The Catholic say the same thing about AOG, and on and on.

This is Babylon. This is confusion. There isn't a nickels worth of difference in the whole lot of them.

I think your example of JW's and Mormons is exactly what Jesus warned about. But from an intellectually honest position, there is zero difference between them and any other church that "re-defines" the Word of God. They all do it.

in 2016;

GUAYAQUIL, Ec. – Pope Francis kicked off the start of a three-nation trip across South America today with his first mass, with over a million Ecuadorians in attendance, in the coastal city of Guayaquil.

During his sermon, Pope Francis announced to Christians around the world that God had called upon him, instructing him “to revise (Re-Define) the most sacred of texts, the Ten Commandments.” Given to the Israelites by God himself at Mount Sinai, the Commandments include instructions for worship and list several prohibited practices.

How are the Mormons and the JW any different? They too teach that "God" called on them to re-define the Word.

I believe it is a huge deception to preach that we need to wait until some man claims to be Jesus, before we "take Heed" of the preaching of the "MANY" who come in Christ's name.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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there's no punctuation in the original language at all; it's interpretive.

compare Luke's account of the same conversation:

And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them."
(Luke 21:8)

the "He" is italicized here ((in NKJV)) - it's not in the text. what Luke literally records is "many will come in My name, saying 'I AM'"
-- therefore do not go after them.
wherefore?
because they say "I AM" and "the time draws near"


how does it make sense,
they say Jesus is the Christ, therefore don't follow them?
are we supposed to conclude that everyone who proclaims that Jesus is the Messiah is a deceiver?


it's interesting to note, though, that cults like the JW and LDS give lip service, saying Jesus is the Christ, but they completely redefine the word 'Christ' and 'Messiah' -- so that it becomes heresy when you probe what they believe, though it sounds nice externally.
good points! And true, the ancient manuscripts are often written using only capital letters, no punctuation, spaces, verse numberings

truly amazing that Bible translators are able to read them! I've looked at images of them on the Internet, I can make out a word here or there.

**************
what follows is just another example of how the King James can cause difficulties for us modern readers.

I was talking with a Mormon here on these CC forums, and he was convinced that Genesis 2:5 was a weird sentence that didn't make sense (thus the need for Joseph Smith to make his own translation).

what he didn't realize is that verse 5 by itself is just a sentence fragment. I believe he was confused because in the King James the first letter of a verse is capitalized, giving the impression to us modern readers that it starts a new sentence.

if one reads versus 4 and 5 together, it makes a nice sentence, although it's far longer than most of the sentences we write today.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,


5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


don't get me wrong, the King James is a valuable resource. I'm just saying it can cause problems for modern readers.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Can you give a verse that tell the thief has been accept Jesus before he was on the cross
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

He knew both who Jesus was, and that He didn't deserve to be there. He didn't learn these things while they were nailing him to the cross. He knew of the Christ before the cross.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

He knew both who Jesus was, and that He didn't deserve to be there. He didn't learn these things while they were nailing him to the cross. He knew of the Christ before the cross.
He knew Christ before, is that mean he accept Christ before?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

He knew both who Jesus was, and that He didn't deserve to be there. He didn't learn these things while they were nailing him to the cross. He knew of the Christ before the cross.
Big sign over Jesus saying "king of the Jews"

The Roman guards became believers because of what they saw that day, too.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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How are the Mormons and the JW any different? They too teach that "God" called on them to re-define the Word
It's called "false Prophets" in the Bible, maybe you've heard of it :)
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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He knew Christ before, is that mean he accept Christ before?
Jesus was kinda famous.
And a sign over Him said "king"
This doesn't make everyone who's heard of Him and is literate a believer: see, for example, the other thief, and all the people mocking Him. Even the Sanhedrin knew they couldn't pin any sin on Him, and Pilate said so to everyone. And had the sign made. So, will we meet Pilate in heaven? I hope so, tbh.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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amen


this sure sounds like you're trusting in works.


I am trusting in His Word's, not my works. I don't believe that Jesus repents for me, that He picks up my cross for me. That He follows God's instructions for me as "many" who come in His Name, preach.

I don't believe your "re-defining" of the Word of God.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


Jesus, the Word which became Flesh, said He would help those who Love Him and Keep His Commandments. He doesn't Love Himself for us while we create images of Him in the likeness of some long haired Levi Jean model.

Jesus, the Word which became Flesh said He would help those who Love Him and Keep His Commandments, not keep His Commandments for us while we Transgress the Commandments of God by our ancient religious traditions of the land.


Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repent from what to what?


His salvation, as the scripture describes it, is not 'a second chance to attain a righteousness of your own' ((see: Philippians 3:9, e.g)) by keeping a list of commandments through your striving. His salvation is a righteousness imputed through faith, through immersion into Him, His death, and His life. this excludes boasting. can a person point to 'physical, ritual sabbath keeping' as making them more righteous than someone else, who considers all days alike? then boasting isn't excluded, and they're no longer talking about the same gospel preached in the scripture; not a message of redemption by grace through faith, but a gospel of works.
it does not depend on human will & exertion ((re: Romans 9:16)) but on God who has mercy. i don't get this 'from men' - i get this from believing what the Word says, without trying to change it, without trying to justify myself, without trying to compare myself to others, setting myself up as some kind of inquisitor.


Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

And who has the Great God of Abraham promised to show Mercy to?

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Do you believe Paul trusted some of God's Word's, but not ALL of them?

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Preaching that the Will of God is for you to reject the very instruction (list of rules as your re-define them as) He created for us to walk in is exactly what Jesus warned about in the beginning of Matt. 24. IMO.

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jer. 6:13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. (Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Jw's, Baptists, AOG, Methodists, SDA, the list goes on and on.)
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. ( they all carry the same message, You are saved, nothing to worry about)

Jer 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? (Creating images of God in the likeness of man, rejecting His Holy Days and Laws and creating their own High Days, and doctrines) nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Transgress God's Commandments)

Jesus has warned us over and over, both about the consequences of rejecting His Words, and the preacher who preach to reject His Words.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, (that God has before ordained that we should walk in them) where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.


And you have certainly made your case Post. "You will not walk in them", religious traditions of the land, yes, you walk in them all the time, but the Righteous Commandments of God He created for you, Nope!!! You and the entire Mainstream Christian Church with their thousands of differing sects all coming in Christ's Name, all teaching Jesus is truly the Christ, all say the same thing.

"We will not walk therein".

I find this reality astounding that God knew this would happen all those years ago. And that you can read it, but can't hear it. This does more for my faith than just about anything. Thank you Jesus for the comfort you give me through your Word.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Romans 4:13-17

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

Christ gave commandments. One of them is give to whoever asks of you without demanding it back.
That's not in the Law of Moses.

Thinking that when He says "keep my commandments" He means the Law of Moses is therefore a logical fallacy, and it doesn't make Romans ch. 3-8 go away. It doesn't destroy the book of Galatians. It doesn't make believers commanded to keep the Law of Moses, as the other believing Pharisees thought.

Old news, mate. You're just another believing Pharisee yourself, with the same wrong understanding that was cleared up in the council of Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.

"previously covered" :)
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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It's called "false Prophets" in the Bible, maybe you've heard of it :)

Yes, I have, as Jesus warned about, men who come in His Name, who preach He is the Christ, but tell lies about the Word of God.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Hi Studyman,
something weird seems to be happening with some of your posts, there.

in one of ones above the things you wrote are attributed to posthuman