GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Can you say you believe God's words if you do not follow what it says?
Can a person be baptized into Moses and also into Christ?
((re: 1 Corinthians 10:2, Ephesians 4:5, Romans 1-9, etc.))

i think that's really what we're grappling with here..
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Peter and James knew better because they had a different Spirit on them than the believing Pharisees, as Peter said to these same converts.

Acts 5:
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
What makes you think the people who were trying to kill Peter were believers?

Are you saying these are the same people in Acts 15:5?

Why are you saying this?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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The term "Sinai Covenant Law" is your words, not the Bibles
Acts 15 calls it "the Law of Moses" yes

tbh i thought about it, and decided you might attack the phrase, saying it wasn't Moses who wrote the Law ((though we all know that)) and that it might steer off needless bickering by making it clear what we're talking about. i was not successful in that endeavour ;p

but "the Law of Moses" is the Law of a covenant ((re: Exodus 27:21, Exodus 31:7, Exodus 31:18, Numbers 1:53, Numbers 17:4, Leviticus 24:3, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 5:2, Deuteronomy 29:1, Psalm 78:10, Hosea 8:1, etc))
and that Covenant was certainly made at Sinai:

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves
(Galatians 4:24)

what's the context of this part of Galatians 4? what's the apostle writing by the breath of God about?

Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, are you not aware of what the Law says?
(Galatians 4:21)

"the Law" -- a Law of a covenant, made at Sinai, which bears children to be slaves.
the same, given through Moses ((Re: John 1:17, John 7:19, Galatians 3:17, Exodus-Deuteronomy))
"
Sinai" and "Covenant" and "Law" are in fact, the Bible's words.

which of this is in dispute?

and btw, does the Bible say anything about the usefulness of "arguing over words" ?
maybe in 2 Timothy 2:14 . . ? :)
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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This is not an easy question. David believe in God, David kill Uriah.
David lost his son over his sin, was humiliated in front of Israel.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

David paid a great price for his sin. You didn't mention that. Men have used David as an excuse to disobey God's Laws ever since, just as Nathan said they would. And it is continues to this day.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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David lost his son over his sin, was humiliated in front of Israel.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

David paid a great price for his sin. You didn't mention that. Men have used David as an excuse to disobey God's Laws ever since, just as Nathan said they would. And it is continues to this day.
and I suppose you perfectly obey the Law?? because to get into the Kingdom without Jesus, you would have to.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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David lost his son over his sin, was humiliated in front of Israel.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

David paid a great price for his sin. You didn't mention that. Men have used David as an excuse to disobey God's Laws ever since, just as Nathan said they would. And it is continues to this day.
You missed my point. My point is: is David consider as non believer, because he kill Uriah?

I did not say God not punish David, but I will remind myself that believer is not perfect. Only Jesus perfect, but the fact we not perfect do not mean we not believer.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Acts 15 calls it "the Law of Moses" yes

tbh i thought about it, and decided you might attack the phrase, saying it wasn't Moses who wrote the Law ((though we all know that)) and that it might steer off needless bickering by making it clear what we're talking about. i was not successful in that endeavour ;p

but "the Law of Moses" is the Law of a covenant ((re: Exodus 27:21, Exodus 31:7, Exodus 31:18, Numbers 1:53, Numbers 17:4, Leviticus 24:3, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 5:2, Deuteronomy 29:1, Psalm 78:10, Hosea 8:1, etc))
and that Covenant was certainly made at Sinai:


There are two Laws referenced in the Bible.

One Law was given to Abraham and again to Abraham's Children in Egypt when they cried out for reason of bondage.

Ex. 2:
23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

This Law, given to the Children of Israel, and the Strangers which sojourned among them, teaches how to Love God and how to Love our neighbor.

The other Law was given specifically to the Levites, Aaron and his sons. This Law was for the "administration of God's Laws, and contained sacrificial, ceremonial, "works" for the atonement of sins.

Paul speaks to this in Rom. 3.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Here are examples of the "LAW of WORKS" performed by the Priesthood!!!

Ex. 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Num. 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
48 For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying,
49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.

Law of Faith!!!

Ex. 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt(Sin), out of the house of bondage.(Deception)

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Two Laws, one for the "Ministers of the Priest's Office" and one for the Children of Israel. One shows how to Love God and how to Love our neighbor, One specifically for a single "tribe" of Israel to perform Priesthood duties "On the Children of Israel's behalf", "until the Seed should Come".

The Word which became Flesh spoke of a time when the Priesthood would change.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is speaking to 2 things here, How God's Word is administered, and how sins are forgiven. Both of these things were not part of God Laws for the People on how to love God and our neighbors, but Laws specifically given to the Levites.

God had His Laws from the foundation of the earth. He gave these Laws to Abraham, and again to his children in Egypt. Paul said He "ADDED" a Law that Abraham didn't have. Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. This Law, which pertained to how God's Laws are administered, and how sins were forgiven, were specific duties of the Priesthood. It was the "Priesthood" Jesus changed. "A Mediator of a better covenant". No more Levite Priests to filter God's Words, no more animals to sacrifice for the sin's of the people.

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves
(Galatians 4:24)

what's the context of this part of Galatians 4? what's the apostle writing by the breath of God about?

Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, are you not aware of what the Law says?
(Galatians 4:21)
These same Levite Priests didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, so they didn't attribute Jer. 31 to Him. They continued to corrupt God's Word and push their version of the Levitical priesthoods "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. They did this to the New Converts on Acts 15, and to the Galatians.​
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​
We are not arguing over mere "words" here. We are talking about a fundamental disagreement regarding the very foundation of the teaching of the Word which became Flesh.

Heb. 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb. 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, (Levites Priests) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

For Jesus to inherit the Priesthood and become our High Priest, this Law had to be changed to allow someone other than a Levite to perform the Priesthood duties,

Now Jesus is the High Priest, by His Blood we are forgiven our sins. No more "Works of the Law" for remission or justification of sins as Paul says in Romans 3.

But we are still required to Love God and Love each other as the Old Testament Commandments God gave to the people instructs.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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You missed my point. My point is: is David consider as non believer, because he kill Uriah?

I did not say God not punish David, but I will remind myself that believer is not perfect. Only Jesus perfect, but the fact we not perfect do not mean we not believer.
and I suppose you perfectly obey the Law?? because to get into the Kingdom without Jesus, you would have to.
"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". With the Word which became Flesh to guide my "Walk", and give me strength in the times of weakness, I have Faith He will finish what He started. As long as I am not snared by those who call Him, Lord, Lord, but do not what He says, I believe I can "endure to the end". I'm not sure what post you refer to that I ever said I could make into heaven another way.

If you could show the post where I implied that I could give myself eternal life, I would appreciate you showing me.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". With the Word which became Flesh to guide my "Walk", and give me strength in the times of weakness, I have Faith He will finish what He started. As long as I am not snared by those who call Him, Lord, Lord, but do not what He says, I believe I can "endure to the end". I'm not sure what post you refer to that I ever said I could make into heaven another way.

If you could show the post where I implied that I could give myself eternal life, I would appreciate you showing me.
not one specific post, but your belief that one has to keep the Law/Sabbath to be saved. that wrong belief is what I was referring to.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". With the Word which became Flesh to guide my "Walk", and give me strength in the times of weakness, I have Faith He will finish what He started. As long as I am not snared by those who call Him, Lord, Lord, but do not what He says, I believe I can "endure to the end". I'm not sure what post you refer to that I ever said I could make into heaven another way.

If you could show the post where I implied that I could give myself eternal life, I would appreciate you showing me.
That is God perfect will, for us to be perfect, but the Bible also say,

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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not one specific post, but your belief that one has to keep the Law/Sabbath to be saved. that wrong belief is what I was referring to.
I don't tell anyone they must do anything to be saved, you will also not find a post where I have said this. I do believe in the Bibles instruction though, and share them with others. I believe the Word which became Flesh created His Sabbath for me as He said. He also Declares to be "Lord of the Sabbath", and the Word which became Flesh said it was a sign between Him and His People. Therefore I, personally, don't reject it. But as Paul said, "let each person by convinced in their own mind".
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
You missed my point. My point is: is David consider as non believer, because he kill Uriah?

I did not say God not punish David, but I will remind myself that believer is not perfect. Only Jesus perfect, but the fact we not perfect do not mean we not believer.
Just because we confess that we believe does not mean we believe either.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
not one specific post, but your belief that one has to keep the Law/Sabbath to be saved. that wrong belief is what I was referring to.
He does not believe that either. He believes and lives the New Covenant. GOD has put HIS Laws; HIS Word; His Christ in our hearts and in our mouths. That is the Faith in which we preach.
 

beta

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Aug 8, 2016
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I don't tell anyone they must do anything to be saved, you will also not find a post where I have said this. I do believe in the Bibles instruction though, and share them with others. I believe the Word which became Flesh created His Sabbath for me as He said. He also Declares to be "Lord of the Sabbath", and the Word which became Flesh said it was a sign between Him and His People. Therefore I, personally, don't reject it. But as Paul said, "let each person by convinced in their own mind".
Agree with you SM....we do not tell others what they must do but we exhort them to walk with Christ and be obedient to HIM the AUTHOR of our SALVATION Heb 5v9. There is only ONE Lord of the Sabbath who is truly the same yesterday, today and forever who can save us ....NONE of the other false christs who have found their way into christianity to deceive MANY....but the choice is theirs....free to go any way they like - but there are consequences !
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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There are two Laws referenced in the Bible.

One Law was given to Abraham and again to Abraham's Children in Egypt when they cried out for reason of bondage.
What I mean is this: The Law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
(Galatians 3:17)

four laws mentioned here:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
(1 Corinthians 9:20-21)

"
the Law" -- obvious reference to the one given to Israel as the terms of the covenant made with them at Sinai
"
law" -- sic, 'without law' -- regulation in abstract sense, non-specific
"
the law of God" -- clearly not identical to the Law of Moses, as Paul is not under 'the Law' but is under 'the law of God'
"
the law of Christ" -- the one that the apostle is actually under, includes him in 'the law of God' while he is simultaneously not under 'the Law' being free either to act as though he is under Moses or not to


re: "
law of faith / law of works"

((it must be noted again, scripture does not break and separate "
the Law" into parts like human tradition does. there is no Biblical basis for such a view, see for ex. Deut. 4:5, 4:13-14 -- it is one covenant, and one Law))
The Law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
(Galatians 3:12)

"
the Law" is singular here. Paul ((and no one else in the Bible)) ever talks about the Law of Moses / Sinai / covenant given in the wilderness as though it is separable components.
that Law -- the whole Law -- is not based on faith. it is a law of works: "
the one who does these things will live by them"