Gospel or theology?

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Mar 14, 2011
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#81
It becomes theology when people intellectualize it instead of live it., and I see it all over the place. A rule of thumb I have ( my personal convictions alone ) is that I will not sit under the preached word of someone who isn't sharing Christ in their personal life with regularity.
Theology by defenition is the study of the Theos. Or God.

Now we have people who make doctrinal theology. Which is not always good theology. But true theology is how we learn about who and what God is.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,565
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#82
I believe if God truly “demanded” / “commanded” that “everyone” come to belief in Jesus, then it would occur, and everyone would be saved.
Since Adam disobeyed God's first command, men have been disobeying God. So you have incorrectly concluded that if God commands men, they will obey Him. However there are serious consequences to disobedience, and the Law of Sowing and Reaping is a law which is embedded in the universe.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,565
3,218
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#83
A believer does need more theology after hearing and believing the gospel.
Correct. Christians need to know Bible doctrine (which is included in theology). But too many evangelical and fundamental churches are failing their members by failing to properly and systematically teach Bible doctrine from the Bible. And some have already committed themselves to false doctrines from the get-go, but most of their members have swallowed these hook line and sinker.

Theology has been mistakenly placed within seminaries and Bible colleges when it really belongs to all Christians (without all the academic and philosophical terminology and claptrap). Jesus of Nazareth used plain and common language which anyone could understand, but was deeper than any theology.

Also, theologians love to hear themselves and use a multitude of words instead of being brief and to the point. This arose from the Scholaticism of the Catholic Church, where they wanted their theologians to be "doctors".

"Scholasticism is the term given to a medieval philosophical movement that combined Catholic theology with the philosophies of more ancient writers such as Augustine and Aristotle. During what is called the Carolingian Renaissance, Charlemagne set up schools in every church throughout the Holy Roman Empire. The monks began to study and learn in these schools, and the schools attracted learners from all over Europe. The word scholasticism comes from the word for “school” because the movement began in Charlemagne’s schools.

Plato’s and Aristotle’s ideas and traditional Catholic dogma were influences on Scholasticism. Scholars sought to apply logic and reason to theology and to create a “web” of distinct truths that, when compared to one another, show truth to be an internally consistent whole. The same process can be seen in many academic systematic theologies today..."


https://www.gotquestions.org/Scholasticism.html
 
Apr 22, 2019
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#84
The gospel is seeing the Person first, and theology is figuring out if the person you saw was the Person you were looking for. It doesn’t make much sense unless we see the record of how John the Baptist sent his disciples to inquire of Jesus if he was the Messiah they were looking for.
 

Yuccaman

New member
Jul 10, 2019
15
17
3
North Alabama
#85
Interesting. I always looked at John questioning if Jesus was the One , or should he expect someone else, as a moment of his faith being tried. He was imprisoned and Jesus was near, Jesus COULD have had him released, but didn't. There are so many different aspects to those scriptures that it's almost hard to conceive. BUT... John was the forerunner, the one who would make the way straight, and it was God's will for him to be where he was.

Jesus , however , didn't condemn him for the question. In fact , this is when Christ said that there was no greater man born of a woman !!!

He actually exalted the one that was questioning who He is.

Theology is a beautiful thing, right up to the point when it becomes an intellectual exercise simply for intellects sake. Then it becomes borderline idolatry. I know that sounds weird , but it's true.

I've seen multilingual doctorate's in theology who couldn't simply approach someone with the good news in a relational way. And to boot, these intellects ( again, nothing wrong with wisdom for the right purpose - to know God and to love your neighbor ) will actually condemn someone who shares the simple Gospel and asks for a response. I am telling the truth here. I've witnessed this first hand.

How else could we read in the bible that God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. That's some scripture you can hang your hat on.
 

Yuccaman

New member
Jul 10, 2019
15
17
3
North Alabama
#86
Correct. Christians need to know Bible doctrine (which is included in theology). But too many evangelical and fundamental churches are failing their members by failing to properly and systematically teach Bible doctrine from the Bible. And some have already committed themselves to false doctrines from the get-go, but most of their members have swallowed these hook line and sinker.

Theology has been mistakenly placed within seminaries and Bible colleges when it really belongs to all Christians (without all the academic and philosophical terminology and claptrap). Jesus of Nazareth used plain and common language which anyone could understand, but was deeper than any theology.

Also, theologians love to hear themselves and use a multitude of words instead of being brief and to the point. This arose from the Scholaticism of the Catholic Church, where they wanted their theologians to be "doctors".

"Scholasticism is the term given to a medieval philosophical movement that combined Catholic theology with the philosophies of more ancient writers such as Augustine and Aristotle. During what is called the Carolingian Renaissance, Charlemagne set up schools in every church throughout the Holy Roman Empire. The monks began to study and learn in these schools, and the schools attracted learners from all over Europe. The word scholasticism comes from the word for “school” because the movement began in Charlemagne’s schools.

Plato’s and Aristotle’s ideas and traditional Catholic dogma were influences on Scholasticism. Scholars sought to apply logic and reason to theology and to create a “web” of distinct truths that, when compared to one another, show truth to be an internally consistent whole. The same process can be seen in many academic systematic theologies today..."

https://www.gotquestions.org/Scholasticism.html
Great post and amen.
 

Yuccaman

New member
Jul 10, 2019
15
17
3
North Alabama
#87
Theology by defenition is the study of the Theos. Or God.

Now we have people who make doctrinal theology. Which is not always good theology. But true theology is how we learn about who and what God is.
Amen.

I love the study of God , who He is , and particularly how to apply what I've learned to my life. This seems to be the thing that irks me to no end concerning something so good, such as theology. All to often , what is learned is not applied.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,755
1,821
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#88
There is a lot of over cooked theology available to those who would rather study about God than know God. Do we see the apostles and disciples as theologians? We do see them as saints of God evangelizing the world. They the apostles and disciples had sound doctrine without all the theology.

I'm not against theologians if they know Jesus as Savior in fact we need them in the body of Christ. The problem is that they can see things and add complications to the basic essence of what men need to know to become saved.

Sound doctrine comes from the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So how much theology have you read? You keeping throwing out terms like "overcooked theology" but what do you mean? Which authors are you talking about? The Scholastics, like Nehemiah mentioned above? The Reformers, like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli? Maybe some people like Moltmann, Kant, or Barth? Or newer writers like Grenz, Boff or Elizabeth Johnson? Or Rahner, Douglas Hall, etc?

You don't have a clue what theology is! You say,

"Sound doctrine comes from the word of God."

I agree! So how do you find this doctrine? By studying! And who do you study? God, of course!

So you are studying the Bible about God. Do you remember what the definition of "Theology?"

It is the study of God! Theos= God, Logia=study of. Theology is the study of God.

Every time you pick up your Bible, with the intention of studying you are doing theology!!!

The only problem is so many people prefer ignorance to learning, there is not much God can do to help you know him better! My life and relationship with Christ have been greatly enriched by studying people who have spent a lifetime studying to show them self approved. Many are so gifted by God.

Knowing God better should never lead you astray, cause you to stumble, or take you down wrong paths! Instead:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your paths!" Prov 3:4-5

God will not lead you astray, but if you are not studying the Word, you are not doing theology, which everyone needs!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,588
1,872
113
#89
So how much theology have you read? You keeping throwing out terms like "overcooked theology" but what do you mean? Which authors are you talking about? The Scholastics, like Nehemiah mentioned above? The Reformers, like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli? Maybe some people like Moltmann, Kant, or Barth? Or newer writers like Grenz, Boff or Elizabeth Johnson? Or Rahner, Douglas Hall, etc?

You don't have a clue what theology is! You say,

"Sound doctrine comes from the word of God."

I agree! So how do you find this doctrine? By studying! And who do you study? God, of course!

So you are studying the Bible about God. Do you remember what the definition of "Theology?"

It is the study of God! Theos= God, Logia=study of. Theology is the study of God.

Every time you pick up your Bible, with the intention of studying you are doing theology!!!

The only problem is so many people prefer ignorance to learning, there is not much God can do to help you know him better! My life and relationship with Christ have been greatly enriched by studying people who have spent a lifetime studying to show them self approved. Many are so gifted by God.

Knowing God better should never lead you astray, cause you to stumble, or take you down wrong paths! Instead:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your paths!" Prov 3:4-5

God will not lead you astray, but if you are not studying the Word, you are not doing theology, which everyone needs!
I am not arguing against theologians. I am saying that you do not need a college education in theology to get saved. Theologians are good but men tend to make too much of them. The apostles and disciples were not theologians but simple men who lived the Lord and served Him out of a clean heart.

Many men who study theology become so respected that their teachings become the source of conflicts. Calvin and Arminius are two prime examples. Luther had enough bugs in his theology to keep a pond full of frogs well fed.

If you wish to see yourself as a theologian then go right ahead. Jesus wants theologians who will be soul winners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
3,068
738
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#90
What is mostly missing in this thread is "Spirit"
None of the Gospel makes sense mentally. The gospel is the meeting of God and man so intimately and personally the mind can not process but a fraction.

The disciples,after His resurrection talked with Him for a long time over a meal.
But the SAW HIM at the breaking of the bread. Their eyes were opened.
That is SPIRIT.
The gospel is recieved SPIRITUALLY.
Revivals are spirit based. Believers come alive. Love flows. Relationships restored. First love restored.
The gospel/salvation is a person,not theology.
The word says "the letter killeth,but the Spirit giveth life"

There is kinda of a joke amoung theologians;...."why did God give us theologians? To complicate the bible"
 
Sep 6, 2014
5,186
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biblehub.com
#91
Ephesians 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,093
2,025
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#92
The gospel is seeing the Person first, and theology is figuring out if the person you saw was the Person you were looking for. It doesn’t make much sense unless we see the record of how John the Baptist sent his disciples to inquire of Jesus if he was the Messiah they were looking for.


No,I don't think so.

Theology

A.H. Strong described it as "The science of God and of the relations between God and the universe." Charles Hodge wrote that it is "The science of the facts of divine revelation so far as those facts concern the nature of God and our relation to Him, as His creatures, as sinners, and as the subjects of redemption."

Interesting take on it.

For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of Yahweh, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel. (Ezra 7:10)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim

….and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim

So I believe we could say that theology is the study of the Word. And the Bible says we are to study the Word. It also says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". I believe the Bereans were a good example of theologians, they studied to see if what they were being told matched up with the Word. Theology is important.

The Gospel on the other hand can be summed up in John 3:16 which tells that God loved the world so much He sent His only begotten son (theology as some try to deny His deity) that whosoever believes will be saved. No need to complicate a very simple issue.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,716
1,042
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#93
No,I don't think so.

Theology

A.H. Strong described it as "The science of God and of the relations between God and the universe." Charles Hodge wrote that it is "The science of the facts of divine revelation so far as those facts concern the nature of God and our relation to Him, as His creatures, as sinners, and as the subjects of redemption."

Interesting take on it.

For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of Yahweh, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel. (Ezra 7:10)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim

….and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim

So I believe we could say that theology is the study of the Word. And the Bible says we are to study the Word. It also says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". I believe the Bereans were a good example of theologians, they studied to see if what they were being told matched up with the Word. Theology is important.

The Gospel on the other hand can be summed up in John 3:16 which tells that God loved the world so much He sent His only begotten son (theology as some try to deny His deity) that whosoever believes will be saved. No need to complicate a very simple issue.

The gospel has two purposes; to bind and to loosen.

God created, is the first good news of the gospel.

One question I do have for a while now. . Why call it the "gospel of Mark", Luke or the gospel of any human? Some would pit the gospel of Paul up against the gospel of James. It can cause confusion and make the good news limited to certain books. Its the gospel of Jesus the Christ, our Faithful and True Creator.

It would seem the verse (John3:16) is revealing the results of "hearing the gospel and believing" according to the living knowledge of God. The loosening power of the gospel.

Those who did not hear the gospel (verse 18) are already condememed because they did not hear and therefore did not believe in God the gospel maintains it binding power. .,

The work of the gospel shows us his labor of love. . working in mankind to both will and do his good pleasure,

The gospel, I would offer is that of the bible in its entirety is the Word of God .It alone in its entirety is the gospel of the Lord Jesus. The true gospel has everything to do with the Lord. . The Bible declares the gospel in 1 John 4:2-3

1 John 4 King James Version (KJV) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It would be impossible to separate the labor of God's love as a work of his faith from the knowledge of His faithfulness.

living thoughts came and living words. They formed that which was not there to begin with . Our Faithful Creator exercising, working His faith in us. . .it is the good news. The gospel of His faithfulness.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,716
1,042
113
#95
Where do you get that idea?

It certainly isn't from Matthew 16:19 or 18:18.
That's two . Antother the gospel key (binding losing ) in Revelation20 . That key sets the captive free to enter our fortress binding the evil spirts from entering in, chaining them in the endless bottomless prison .

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Whenever two or three new creatures gather under the authority of the gospel key. . he is there loosening His will binding the lies from entering our minds.

As the upside down god of this world he deceives men to beleive things are loosed from earth inspired of the devil.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,123
2,988
113
#96
Theology by defenition is the study of the Theos. Or God.

Now we have people who make doctrinal theology. Which is not always good theology. But true theology is how we learn about who and what God is.
I think you have said above what I have been trying to say.

But I seem to have not trying to convey correctly what I think.

You mentioned doctrinal theology.
What is doctrinal theology?

Is speaking in tongues or baptism saves or works save a doctrinal theology?

I tried to make the make the point that if the above is theology then it detracts from the gospel.

I personally believe that incorrect theology negates the gospel.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,093
2,025
113
#97
The gospel has two purposes; to bind and to loosen.

God created, is the first good news of the gospel.

One question I do have for a while now. . Why call it the "gospel of Mark", Luke or the gospel of any human? Some would pit the gospel of Paul up against the gospel of James. It can cause confusion and make the good news limited to certain books. Its the gospel of Jesus the Christ, our Faithful and True Creator.

It would seem the verse (John3:16) is revealing the results of "hearing the gospel and believing" according to the living knowledge of God. The loosening power of the gospel.

Those who did not hear the gospel (verse 18) are already condememed because they did not hear and therefore did not believe in God the gospel maintains it binding power. .,

The work of the gospel shows us his labor of love. . working in mankind to both will and do his good pleasure,

The gospel, I would offer is that of the bible in its entirety is the Word of God .It alone in its entirety is the gospel of the Lord Jesus. The true gospel has everything to do with the Lord. . The Bible declares the gospel in 1 John 4:2-3

1 John 4 King James Version (KJV) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It would be impossible to separate the labor of God's love as a work of his faith from the knowledge of His faithfulness.

living thoughts came and living words. They formed that which was not there to begin with . Our Faithful Creator exercising, working His faith in us. . .it is the good news. The gospel of His faithfulness.

Garee I appreciate your commitment to take any question and run with it. I know your answer will always be unique, even if I don't always understand it. Not being nasty either.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,093
2,025
113
#98
I think you have said above what I have been trying to say.

But I seem to have not trying to convey correctly what I think.

You mentioned doctrinal theology.
What is doctrinal theology?

Is speaking in tongues or baptism saves or works save a doctrinal theology?

I tried to make the make the point that if the above is theology then it detracts from the gospel.

I personally believe that incorrect theology negates the gospel.


There are different types of theology and when practiced properly is does not detract from the Gospel. The same as doctrines are important.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,776
512
113
#99
Theology by defenition is the study of the Theos. Or God.

Now we have people who make doctrinal theology. Which is not always good theology. But true theology is how we learn about who and what God is.
Doctrines are created by men's sincere interpretation of scripture. At times, even the blessed gospel of Christ has been used to lead away from truth when the blessing of Christ who was given all authority by the Lord blinds Christians to the truth of God the Father. They forget that Christ told them that in Him was the power and the glory.

I think the only way to lean true truth is to search for when and how every doctrine began and that takes dedication to truth, but we have scholars who have done that. Through the dead sea scrolls, history was opened up of ancient people. There are records kept of the decisions of church councils that told how to interpret scripture. As an example, it is simple to see from our distance when their interpretation was based on antisemitism. Just as in Jesus' day, the church is up in arms against searching for truth by checking beginnings for it leads to finding truth.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,242
1,653
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I look after church library, and nobody really reads those fat theology books. They are only in there because the pastor doesnt know what to do with them. Im sure nobody would miss them if they were thrown in the bin. (Gasp!)

Why because they are redundant when you read all of the Bible.

What really moves people are reading peoples testimonies.

Theologians dont have testimonies, they only have theories and arguments. And tonnes of footnotes. I have tried reading a few but my conclusion is most are written by a bunch of agnostics or academic christians trying to impress their athiest friends. But why are they friends with athiests in the first place? Athiests arent the most friendly people to hang around with, especially when you tell them you are a christian. Lol