Grace alone or grace plus works?

[DJ2]

I think we have been deceived in a way by the translators of the bible. They keep talking about works being needed for salvation when a better description would have been proofs of faith. Thereby the initial faith and the proofs of faith equal, saved by faith.

So it's the translators fault. Or maybe...just maybe the Bible means what it says.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Will the Avocado tree grow if the farmer only has faith that he planted the seed or will he have to actually plant the seed?

Sounds like "show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works."

But Without GRACE you would still be on your own and all would come short of the glory of GOD.
I see what you mean though.What has been found according to the flesh?There might be an occasion to boast In the flesh but not before GOD who Is a SPIRIT.

 

[notmyown]

So then you would agree that we are saved by GOD and you voted yes to we are saved by Grace through faith alone?

brother, i forgot to vote!

but yes, i believe our works are the fruit of being justified by faith, not the root of it.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I think we have been deceived in a way by the translators of the bible. They keep talking about works being needed for salvation when a better description would have been proofs of faith. Thereby the initial faith and the proofs of faith equal, saved by faith.

John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++
Nothing there about works.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There's 2 who voted grace + works?

 

[Lynx]

Do we really need another not by works thread?

Have you tried getting the Not By Works thread back on-topic lately?

This topic (and the many threads and millions of posts concerning it) is a good example of the wisdom of God confounding the wise though. The gospel is supposed to be so simple that a child can understand it, but lots of adults who are professional christians - got the church membership card, got the different bible versions and commentaries, know how to look up greek and hebrew definitions - make heavy weather out of deciphering it. Why I've even seen good christians insult each other over this topic.

Salvation is at the heart of this "good news" gospel that is supposed to be so simple, but when I follow these threads it sure is complicated enough to make my head hurt.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Some believe that salvation Is by Grace through faith alone but some believe That salvation Is by Grace by Grace through faith plus works.where do you stand on this Issue?

For the sake of clarity we should use the word JUSTIFIED by grace through faith, instead of "salvation". Of course it is a part of salvation, but there is a very specific connotation to being justified by GRACE through FAITH. So here is how the Bible sums it up (Rom 5:1,2), and what justification means:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Strong's Concordance

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous​

Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1344: δικαιόω
3.τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be, (cf. ὁμοιόωto declare to be like, liken, i. e. compare; ὁσιόω, Wis. 6:11; ἀξιόω, which never means to make worthy, butto judge worthy, to declare worthy, to treat as worthy; see also κοινόω, 2 b.);

So the question is how can God declare a guilty sinner righteous when he is totally unrighteous? By making a supernatural and spiritual "exchange". The sinners genuine faith (which must be accompanied by repentance -- which is not a work but a total repudiation of sin, evil, and idols) is "exchanged" for the perfect righteousness of Christ, which is imputed (put to the account of) the sinner.

In other words, the moment a sinner turns to Christ and receives Him as Lord and Savior, God removes his filthy rags of sin, guilt, and self-righteousness, and clothes him with the garment of salvation -- the "robe" of Christ's righteousness. Therefore any good deeds or good works are totally excluded from this exchange, and God says NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Now, having being justified by grace through faith, the sinner must begin to be sanctified, and therefore good works are required as proof of genuine faith and repentance. This is where the teaching of James comes in. What James says in colloquial language is "Talk is cheap, so don't just talk the talk, but walk the walk. In addition to God works, God demands that we live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present word. Which automatically means that GRACE IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN.

 

[notmyown]

Have you tried getting the Not By Works thread back on-topic lately?

This topic (and the many threads and millions of posts concerning it) is a good example of the wisdom of God confounding the wise though. The gospel is supposed to be so simple that a child can understand it, but lots of adults who are professional christians - got the church membership card, got the different bible versions and commentaries, know how to look up greek and hebrew definitions - make heavy weather out of deciphering it. Why I've even seen good christians insult each other over this topic.

Salvation is at the heart of this "good news" gospel that is supposed to be so simple, but when I follow these threads it sure is complicated enough to make my head hurt.

take two. don't worry, it's just acetylsalicylic acid.

 

[DJ2]

If grace unto itself saves, should not everyone be saved?

 

[SovereignGrace]

If grace unto itself saves, should not everyone be saved?

No, seeing grace comes solely from God.

 

[DJ2]

No, seeing grace comes solely from God.

Did Jesus not die for all?

 

[preacher4truth]

Grace should be defined. We are saved by grace, not by any works.

It is by grace that we do any works for God, Philippians 2:12-13, thus it is the saving grace of God working in the believer. The exercises of God's grace within a believer show the person is converted.

Those who believe they are saved by what they do (works) are gravely mistaken. The problem lies within a misunderstanding of what God's saving grace entails in the life of the believer.

 

[preacher4truth]

If grace unto itself saves, should not everyone be saved?

You show a profound misunderstanding of Scripture and namely the Gospel with your above statement.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did Jesus not die for all?

He said He gave His life for the sheep.[John 10:11,15]

Not everybody whoever lived is His sheep.

He died for the ekklesia, the body of Christ, the believing ones.[Ephesians 5:25]

 

[Laish]

If grace unto itself saves, should not everyone be saved?

Blessings
Bill

 

[Mercy4u]

For the sake of clarity we should use the word JUSTIFIED by grace through faith, instead of "salvation".

Exactly. That is why we should not use atonement and justified as synonymous.

He atoned for ALL sin. And propitiated (satisfied)the Father for ALL sin.

But not all are Justified. Only through belief can a person be justified.

 

[preacher4truth]

There's 2 who voted grace + works?

Of course, there are 2 who are swimming in the Tiber. Surprised there aren't more votes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Exactly. That is why we should not use atonement and justified as synonymous.

He atoned for ALL sin. And propitiated (satisfied)the Father for ALL sin.

But not all are Justified. Only through belief can a person be justified.

And if all are atoned, all are saved. Not one atoned for human dies eternally lost. That's saying the death of the Christ, which brings atonement to those He died for, His sheep, His elect, is not sufficient.

You're espousing heresy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Meanings of the word 'atonement'.

• • reparation for a wrong or injury
• (in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin.
• the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ
• 
  
  • To be atoned for means you are now guiltless before God, as your sins have been atoned for, the guilt has been removed. If the Christ made an atonement for everybody w/o exception, then everybody w/o exception is reconciled(two enemies made friends) and going to heaven.
  
  
  
• This is coming out weird and can't fix it. Sorry about that.
  

 

[Laish]

And if all are atoned, all are saved. Not one atoned for human dies eternally lost. That's saying the death of the Christ, which brings atonement to those He died for, His sheep, His elect, is not sufficient.

You're espousing heresy.

There also is the question of the unpardonable sin. That is sin and all can’t mean or be all then can it .
Blessings
Bill