Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

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peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#181
Feb 21, 2012
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#181
Stunnedbygrace said:
Lol!
You asked: what kind of battle is that if your enemy has to ask permission to attack??
My answer was: a battle with a referee?
And keep in mind that I didn't pull it out of thin air. There are two biblical precedents showing satan asking permission to attack 2 different men.
Another way to say it might be...a helper who levels the playing field so that no one has an undue advantage in which the other side has no hope of even getting their armor on before they are dead.

I mean, even you yourself agreed earlier that God has placed limits on satan. If he didn't, who would have a chance to even learn about what their armor was or putting it on before they were murdalized?
Click to expand...
Your definition of a referee is different than mine . . . A referee is one outside the game/match who watches to make sure rules are applied to. I was talking about the war, the battle between God and Satan . . . that's why I asked who was the referee.

"a helper who levels the playing field so that no one has an undue advantage in which the other side has no hope of even getting their armor on before they are dead." ​
God is not outside the battle but fully engaged - God has given us everything we need to fight in the battle, he has given us all the equipment there at our disposal to fight in the battle, we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices - it is up to us to know when to put on the armor - in fact, I believe we should always be suited up, ready and praying without ceasing. :)​
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#182
Nov 12, 2015
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#182
peacefulbeliever said:
Your definition of a referee is different than mine . . . A referee is one outside the game/match who watches to make sure rules are applied to. I was talking about the war, the battle between God and Satan . . . that's why I asked who was the referee.

"a helper who levels the playing field so that no one has an undue advantage in which the other side has no hope of even getting their armor on before they are dead." ​
God is not outside the battle but fully engaged - God has given us everything we need to fight in the battle, he has given us all the equipment there at our disposal to fight in the battle, we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices - it is up to us to know when to put on the armor - in fact, I believe we should always be suited up, ready and praying without ceasing. :)​
Click to expand...
Okay PB. I call uncle. :D
Maybe satan doesn't really have to ask permission but just did it with Job and peter out of plain polite manners and respect for God. :p
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#183
Aug 17, 2015
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#183
Stunnedbygrace said:
I agree he was not like an angel or immortal (yet).

But the point I was trying to make is that, though a physical seed, nevertheless, a physical seed superior to THIS (myself) physical seed. The very fact that his body lived for hundreds and hundreds of years more than mine suggests his body had far greater strength and properties than my own!

And the fact that God created him versus him fallen brought me forth, suggests some differences probably existed.
Click to expand...
Regarding his age, its good to realize that Adam did not have the longest life in Genesis genealogies, Methusalem (born after fall and even not direct Adam´s child) had.

So the properties of body of Adam and of his children born after the fall were not different.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#184
Nov 12, 2015
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#184
trofimus said:
Regarding his age, its good to realize that Adam did not have the longest life in Genesis genealogies, Methusalem (born after fall and even not direct Adam´s child) had.

So the properties of body of Adam and of his children born after the fall were not different.
Click to expand...
I suspect there were differences between one created unfallen versus one born inheriting fallen, but I can't prove it either way so I call uncle with you too. :D
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#186
Apr 18, 2013
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#186
Stunnedbygrace said:
Okay PB. I call uncle. :D
Maybe satan doesn't really have to ask permission but just did it with Job and peter out of plain polite manners and respect for God. :p
Click to expand...

The normal, orthodox view on Job is not that Satan has to ask permission for everything, but that rather, he cannot do anything which is outside of God's will.

It seems there are some things God "allows" Satan to do, and some things which God does not allow him to do.
If Satan wants to do something which isn't allowed, he would have to get special permission.

It is generally understood that Job was specially protected by God, and these kinds of attacks on Job were not allowed.
Therefore, to make such an attack, Satan had to get some kind of special permission... he essentially had to ask God to withhold his special protection.

Conclusion:
1. We cannot deduce from Job that Satan requires "special permission for everything", or, swinging to the opposite extreme, that Satan can do "whatever he pleases without exception." Neither of these extremes is what we find taught in Job.
2. From Job, what theologians deduce is that GOD IS ULTIMATELY IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEFINING BOUNDARIES AROUND SATAN'S ACTIVITIES.
3. The point of Job is that God is in control.
 
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S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#187
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#187
Maxwell, PB and I need you! :)
You have outlined it so wonderfully!!

It won't let me rep you but thank you!
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#188
Nov 12, 2015
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#188
But...some might still not be quite okay with it Maxwell because they think satan collapsing a house on Jobs children was not Gods' will...

And I do understand their insistence on that - not His will but He can nevertheless work it for our eternal good.
 
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maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#189
Apr 18, 2013
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#189
Stunnedbygrace said:
But...some might still not be quite okay with it Maxwell because they think satan collapsing a house on Jobs children was not Gods' will...

And I do understand their insistence on that - not His will but He can nevertheless work it for our eternal good.
Click to expand...

God's Will


Different Categories:

The phrase "God's will" can refer to a lot of COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things.

This phrase is actually ONE PHRASE which is used to refer to MANY DIFFERENT CATEGORIES of God's desires and purposes.



These different categories and distinctions are all IN the Bible, and then we describe them in theology by applying a list of adjectives to distinguish and separate them.

This is commonly called "different types of God's will."



Common breakdown of the different types of God's will:
(More fine distinctions are possible, but this is commonly accepted as a general breakdown.)

1. Sovereign / Decretive Will
2. Preceptive Will
3. Dispositional / Permissive Will



If you look these up, and do a bit of study, a lot of things will clear up.








 
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trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#190
Aug 17, 2015
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#190
Stunnedbygrace said:
I suspect there were differences between one created unfallen versus one born inheriting fallen, but I can't prove it either way so I call uncle with you too. :D
Click to expand...
I checked genealogies and it seems that the opposite is true. Adam had quite a short length of life compared to his children. Almost everybody had longer life than he, from the beginning.

So, your Adam´s "supremacy" hypothesis seems to fall apart :p
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#191
Nov 12, 2015
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#191
trofimus said:
I checked genealogies and it seems that the opposite is true. Adam had quite a short length of life compared to his children. Almost everybody had longer life than he, from the beginning.

So, your Adam´s "supremacy" hypothesis seems to fall apart :p
Click to expand...
I didn't base my musings solely on length of years. Although my own body couldn't possibly live hundreds of years, so there was something about adam that was hardier than me, personally. Some of my joints have barely lasted into my 50's! Not that I want to live here hundreds of years, thank you, no!
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#192
Nov 12, 2015
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#192
How do you make holy water?

You get regular water and boil the devil out of it. :D
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#193
Aug 17, 2015
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#193
Stunnedbygrace said:
I didn't base my musings solely on length of years. Although my own body couldn't possibly live hundreds of years, so there was something about adam that was hardier than me, personally. Some of my joints have barely lasted into my 50's! Not that I want to live here hundreds of years, thank you, no!
Click to expand...
Its possible that such old genealogies are more mythical or symbolic or maybe lunar etc.

But the fact is, that Adam lived shorter than many of his children.
 
lightbearer

lightbearer

Senior Member
#194
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
#194
maxwel said:
The normal, orthodox view on Job is not that Satan has to ask permission for everything, but that rather, he cannot do anything which is outside of God's will.
Click to expand...
Nice post.
Satan is a created being. Like us he gets his power from GOD for there is no power but GOD.

Faith is powerful even in the wrong hands.

Think on that for a moment.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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#195
Jul 3, 2015
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#195
FlSnookman7 said:
I notice we tend to focus on eve, but she was deceived, it was adam who sinned. Thank you all for the replies, gives me much to study. Shalom.
Click to expand...
Eve did sin, also, but the responsibility was Adam's, or placed on Adam. An aside here is that some people assume that God directly informed Eve of His command not to eat of the forbidden tree, but that is not in Scripture. What we do see in Scripture is that Eve added to what God commanded of Adam, in that she said they were not to touch the tree.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#196
Jul 3, 2015
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#196
trofimus said:
Its possible that such old genealogies are more mythical or symbolic or maybe lunar etc.

But the fact is, that Adam lived shorter than many of his children.
Click to expand...
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Seth[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]912[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Enosh[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]905[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Cainan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]910[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Mahalalel[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]895[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:17[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Jared[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]962[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:20[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]7[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Enoch[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]365 (translated)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Methuselah[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]969[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]9[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Lamech[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]777[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:31[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Noah[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]950[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 9:29[/TD]
[/TR]
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The ten patriarchs (excluding Enoch) who preceded the Great Flood lived an average of 912 years. Lamech died the youngest at the age of 777, andMethuselah lived to be the oldest at 969. https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/did-adam-and-noah-really-live-over-900-years/
​

After Noah, God shortened man's lifespan to 120 years.

Psalm 90:10 says,
The years of our life are seventy,
or even by reason of strength eighty;
yet their span is but toil and trouble;
they are soon gone, and we fly away.​
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#197
Jul 3, 2015
57,031
26,758
113
#197
Stunnedbygrace said:
Okay at this point I'm just going to begin to sound like a broken record but...it never occurred to me that anyone thought Adam was created with a tendency or a bent toward sinning. I get that I myself was born that way but not that he was created that way. I'll let the thing drop because I just need some time to grasp such a new and different thought.
Click to expand...
It is the idea that giving man a choice holds the potential for man to choose to do evil and oppose or go against the will of God. Satan also opposed the will of God. God allows it, even though His moral will opposes it, and in His sovereignty will some day bring it all to a screeching halt. It seems created beings, maybe not all but certainly what we know of earthly things and also a full one third of angels, all fight for self-preservation. The will to preserve, protect, prolong, and improve life's circumstances seems to be a built-in aspect of created beings. That is one of the reasons why I never get how people can say death is not a punishment, because the will to live surfaces even in people who might otherwise be considered suicidal. It is a tragic and very sad fact of life that some follow through with their plan to end their life, and it can often be easily seen that they were in a great deal of emotional pain/psychological distress due to their life's circumstances, some of which they themselves bear the responsibility for :(
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#198
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#198
Magenta said:
[TABLE="width: 1"]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TH="bgcolor: #999999"][/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #999999"]Patriarch[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #999999"]Age[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #999999"]Bible Reference[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Adam[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]930[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]2[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Seth[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]912[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]3[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Enosh[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]905[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]4[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Cainan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]910[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Mahalalel[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]895[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]6[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Jared[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]962[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]7[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Enoch[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]365 (translated)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]8[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Methuselah[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]969[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]9[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Lamech[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]777[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 5:31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: transparent"]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Noah[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]950[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Genesis 9:29[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The ten patriarchs (excluding Enoch) who preceded the Great Flood lived an average of 912 years. Lamech died the youngest at the age of 777, andMethuselah lived to be the oldest at 969. https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/genealogy/did-adam-and-noah-really-live-over-900-years/
​

After Noah, God shortened man's lifespan to 120 years.

Psalm 90:10 says,
The years of our life are seventy,
or even by reason of strength eighty;
yet their span is but toil and trouble;
they are soon gone, and we fly away.​
Click to expand...
"120 years" part was not about the possible age of human body, but about the time given to people for repentance before the flood.

People lived more then 120 years after the flood, for example Abraham.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#199
Jul 18, 2017
24,774
13,135
113
#199
FlSnookman7 said:
I notice we tend to focus on eve, but she was deceived, it was adam who sinned.
Click to expand...
Yes Eve was deceived, BUT SHE CHOSE TO BE DECEIVED. She knew exactly what God had said to Adam, but she added to His words and then Satan twisted His words and made them mean something else. But she did not have to listen to his lies or to yield to that temptation.

Let's look at the sequence of events are laid out in Scripture (Genesis 3).

SATAN LIES TO EVE
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

That is not what God had said. Actually the exact opposite. But only one tree was forbidden.

EVE CORRECTS SATAN
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

BUT THEN EVE ADDS TO WHAT GOD SAID
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Eve changed TWO THINGS in God’s commandment. So she was already on the road to disobedience: (1)God had said absolutely nothing about touching that tree or its fruit. They could have touched all they wanted to, and nothing would have happened. They were forbidden TO EAT of the fruit. (2) God did not say “lest ye die” (as though there was any uncertainty). God said “Ye shall SURELY DIE”. Big difference.

NOW SATAN CORRECTS EVE, BUT CONTRADICTS GOD
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Satan knew that God had said “Ye shall SURELY DIE”, not “lest ye die”. But then he blatantly contradicted God, and Eve did not correct him. Another step toward disobedience.

THEN SATAN INTRODUCES THE GREATEST TEMPTATION
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Lucifer had wanted to be “as God” and above God. But he was cast out of Heaven, so he brought this foolish notion and deliberate lie to Eve. Again Eve did not correct him and say “That is utter nonsense. God warned us that we would SURELY DIE, not become as gods”.

NOW EVE CHOOSES TO BE DECEIVED
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (THE LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (THE LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (THE PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,...

So we see how Eve chose to be deceived and allowed those lusts to become sin. Because she had free will, that TENDENCY was in her and in Adam.

NOW EVE CAUSES ADAM TO SIN (BUT ADAM KNEW IT WAS WRONG)
...and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

We will never know why Adam deliberately disobeyed God. Perhaps Eve was the most beautiful of women, and he did not desire to be separated from her.

BOTH IMMEDIATELY BECOME CONSCIOUS OF THEIR NAKEDNESS
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

We do not know if both were clothed in light (similar to the angels) while they were innocent, but the moment they sinned, the light was gone and they found themselves stark naked.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#200
Jul 3, 2015
57,031
26,758
113
#200
maxwel said:
God's Will

Different Categories:

The phrase "God's will" can refer to a lot of COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things.

This phrase is actually ONE PHRASE which is used to refer to MANY DIFFERENT CATEGORIES of God's desires and purposes.

These different categories and distinctions are all IN the Bible, and then we describe them in theology by applying a list of adjectives to distinguish and separate them.

This is commonly called "different types of God's will."

Common breakdown of the different types of God's will:
(More fine distinctions are possible, but this is commonly accepted as a general breakdown.)

1. Sovereign / Decretive Will
2. Preceptive Will
3. Dispositional / Permissive Will


If you look these up, and do a bit of study, a lot of things will clear up.
Click to expand...
I usually class God's will in the categories of sovereign, moral, and permissive :)
 
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