Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue
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I've run across you twice in two days, what a treat!! 
No, no, no to your first two sentences though! Think that through some more.
No, no, no to your first two sentences though! Think that through some more.
The reason evil continues is because sinners still exist, and the enemy is at work. God permits its existence only for the sake of the few, for those that will at some point in time repent. It is emotionally jarring for people, but they must understand the larger picture, the finite in comparison to the infinite. We are here for but a time, yet for eternity we shall be experiencing the riches of God's grace towards us.
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour (Psalm 8:5).
Glory frequently means the brightness of glory, and the glory of God is divine Light, as much as His divine attributes. So if God "crowned" Adam and Eve (when created) with a robe of light, it is not unreasonable for those who were "a little lower than the angels" (not a great deal lower but just a little lower) to be radiating light.
Glory frequently means the brightness of glory, and the glory of God is divine Light, as much as His divine attributes. So if God "crowned" Adam and Eve (when created) with a robe of light, it is not unreasonable for those who were "a little lower than the angels" (not a great deal lower but just a little lower) to be radiating light.
Why does God allow evil? First thing we need is to define evil. What is evil and what is not evil? God said: Isa. 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Just how did God create evil? By defining it. When the third of the angels rebelled, they hadn't observed the results of evil. They set their hearts to do the evil and then they became fixed in their evil character. Now, they can't help but to be evil. All it takes for Satan to carry out his worst is for God to remove His hedge. Something obviously visible in the spirit realm. That is the only permission he gets. He does not meet with God and lay plans for his work, He is dependable/fixed to do it.
God is in the process of removing evil from the universe. God is a God of love. If He allowed the evil being to continue anywhere forever, that would be most unkind to them. Would not a God of love let anyone, that couldn't quite cut with Him, be destroyed instead of tortured forever. Some people are going to turn evil despite any influence acted upon them.
All this speculation about the fate of all unbelievers is moot. Even professing Christians that do not have the Holy Spirit, have no chance to serve God. Only the participants of the first resurrection have any chance of ruling with Christ.
There are many morally good people in the world, but unless our Father draws them into His fold: they will never understand God's word and His plan. We don't have to worry about anyone being tormented in flames forever. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Everybody sins and everybody pays. This is physical death. The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.
God's promise to resurrect "the rest of the dead" in Rev. 20 will be the first and only chance these that were not called in the first life will have. That is when they will have their chance to overcome Satan and his fallen army. This will be Satan's last act. When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.
Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity. Eze. 28:18, 19: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
Just how did God create evil? By defining it. When the third of the angels rebelled, they hadn't observed the results of evil. They set their hearts to do the evil and then they became fixed in their evil character. Now, they can't help but to be evil. All it takes for Satan to carry out his worst is for God to remove His hedge. Something obviously visible in the spirit realm. That is the only permission he gets. He does not meet with God and lay plans for his work, He is dependable/fixed to do it.
God is in the process of removing evil from the universe. God is a God of love. If He allowed the evil being to continue anywhere forever, that would be most unkind to them. Would not a God of love let anyone, that couldn't quite cut with Him, be destroyed instead of tortured forever. Some people are going to turn evil despite any influence acted upon them.
All this speculation about the fate of all unbelievers is moot. Even professing Christians that do not have the Holy Spirit, have no chance to serve God. Only the participants of the first resurrection have any chance of ruling with Christ.
There are many morally good people in the world, but unless our Father draws them into His fold: they will never understand God's word and His plan. We don't have to worry about anyone being tormented in flames forever. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Everybody sins and everybody pays. This is physical death. The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.
God's promise to resurrect "the rest of the dead" in Rev. 20 will be the first and only chance these that were not called in the first life will have. That is when they will have their chance to overcome Satan and his fallen army. This will be Satan's last act. When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.
Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity. Eze. 28:18, 19: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
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U
It is the addiction to the knowledge of good and evil with our finite minds that is the overall problem.
We simplify and try to understand that which we really cannot understand. Trying to explain what is beyond us is fraught with problems right from the get go.
Upon further reflection on this topic after the fiasco of the last thread on this topic, I know now, I can live with not knowing why God allows evil to continue ....my last post on this topic for sure.
We simplify and try to understand that which we really cannot understand. Trying to explain what is beyond us is fraught with problems right from the get go.
Upon further reflection on this topic after the fiasco of the last thread on this topic, I know now, I can live with not knowing why God allows evil to continue ....my last post on this topic for sure.
If I may,
It seems the Word which became Flesh may have given some insight into this in His Spiritual "Law and Prophets".
If we understand that we don't fight against flesh and blood.
Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Wouldn't this be our mind?)
The enemy is close to us, in our own mind, our own religion.
Ex. 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
My understanding of the Spiritual meaning of the "Nations" is that they are the evil that is around us like false doctrines, false religions, etc., and in our mind like Rebellion, disbelief, anger, pride, selfishness, etc., things that come from within. (Our mind, high places)
The Word which became flesh preserved these through the flood through Ham, He preserving them through Joshua.
Jesus said Himself He didn't come to bring peace, but division.
"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come;(To prove us) but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
How can we "Choose" His Good over Evil if both are not available to us?
The Word which became Flesh explains.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Word which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Paul agrees with this in Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.
So we all choose who to listen to, who to obey, who to trust. And God has set before us the choice and created the choices.
Anyway, these are some of my thoughts on the subject.
I had been talking about only the first two sentences of the post, where you said if God does away with evil, wouldn't that mean our destruction too because we still sin? That's what I was thinking you might want to rethink or reword. Because He WILL do away with evil one day and we will NOT be destroyed.
What Ben gave was sort of a different version of an apologetic argument for dealing with atheists, and he applied it to all people in general.
It works like this:
- Atheist says, "If there really IS a God, surely he would get rid of all the evil."
- Christian says, "If God got rid of ALL the evil, maybe he'd have to get rid of YOU."
- Atheist then stares... eyes wide... pondering, lol.
Ben sort of applied this argument in a more general way, to all humans, including lost and saved people.
I think Ben's point is sound, and logical, but obviously when we apply this argument to believers the doctrinal issues could become a little messy and complicated.
It's a good point, and I think it's sound, but I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
It works like this:
- Atheist says, "If there really IS a God, surely he would get rid of all the evil."
- Christian says, "If God got rid of ALL the evil, maybe he'd have to get rid of YOU."
- Atheist then stares... eyes wide... pondering, lol.
Ben sort of applied this argument in a more general way, to all humans, including lost and saved people.
I think Ben's point is sound, and logical, but obviously when we apply this argument to believers the doctrinal issues could become a little messy and complicated.
It's a good point, and I think it's sound, but I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
It is the addiction to the knowledge of good and evil with our finite minds that is the overall problem.
We simplify and try to understand that which we really cannot understand. Trying to explain what is beyond us is fraught with problems right from the get go.
Upon further reflection on this topic after the fiasco of the last thread on this topic, I know now, I can live with not knowing why God allows evil to continue ....my last post on this topic for sure.
We simplify and try to understand that which we really cannot understand. Trying to explain what is beyond us is fraught with problems right from the get go.
Upon further reflection on this topic after the fiasco of the last thread on this topic, I know now, I can live with not knowing why God allows evil to continue ....my last post on this topic for sure.
But also, we have managed to not have a fiasco in this thread, even though we're talking about the same topic. At least for the first 11 pages, there has been respect and no one acting awful. It has been taxing, mentally, but everyone has remained calm.
I realize that could end. It only takes one tongue to set a forest on fire. But this thread has been a true pleasure to me. I've even gotten to know a few regulars who I never really chatted much with.
I guess I'm saying...it's not the fact that a topic is emotional and difficult that makes a fiasco happen.
Jesus said in Mat_10:27 "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops." So that's what I'm going to do:
This topic happens to be one I asked God about (in a couple of questions) which He was kind enough to answer.
The first question (asked because I was running out of tough questions to ask him) was simply "What IS the purpose of this life" (referring to man's existence on earth). He answered me almost immediately "The purpose is (for man) to choose." Not that you asked but I was rather shocked that he answered so quickly because I thought it might take months or years like some other questions I'd asked.
2nd question asked on some other occasion was this: "If you hate evil so much, why didn't/don't you just get rid of the devil (and evil)?" and the answer to that goes back to the first answer. I don't remember the exact wording but it was basically "In order for man to choose, there has to be another option" (an option other than good).
1. If there has to be an option other than good, then that only leaves evil.
2. If God won't tempt man with evil (God never has and never will suggest to man that evil is somehow worth doing), then someone else is needed to provide an argument for the evil option. That's what the devil decided to do. That's why the devil was allowed in the garden of eden. And that's why the devil is still here.
3. If a person did evil actions without evil consequences being allowed, then the person would conclude that doing evil leads to good results just the same as doing good leads to good results. So God has to allow evil actions (like murder) to accomplish evil results (like death).
4. (Just a bonus question and answer) Q. And how long will evil and the devil be allowed to remain? A. Until the end of the choosing. Then death, hell, the devil, evil, and all that chose evil will be dealt with and cast away.
Hope that is beneficial to someone. I guess it's up for scrutiny if someone wants to do so, but it was just posted because I thought it was cool and thought others might gain from it.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
This topic happens to be one I asked God about (in a couple of questions) which He was kind enough to answer.
The first question (asked because I was running out of tough questions to ask him) was simply "What IS the purpose of this life" (referring to man's existence on earth). He answered me almost immediately "The purpose is (for man) to choose." Not that you asked but I was rather shocked that he answered so quickly because I thought it might take months or years like some other questions I'd asked.
2nd question asked on some other occasion was this: "If you hate evil so much, why didn't/don't you just get rid of the devil (and evil)?" and the answer to that goes back to the first answer. I don't remember the exact wording but it was basically "In order for man to choose, there has to be another option" (an option other than good).
1. If there has to be an option other than good, then that only leaves evil.
2. If God won't tempt man with evil (God never has and never will suggest to man that evil is somehow worth doing), then someone else is needed to provide an argument for the evil option. That's what the devil decided to do. That's why the devil was allowed in the garden of eden. And that's why the devil is still here.
3. If a person did evil actions without evil consequences being allowed, then the person would conclude that doing evil leads to good results just the same as doing good leads to good results. So God has to allow evil actions (like murder) to accomplish evil results (like death).
4. (Just a bonus question and answer) Q. And how long will evil and the devil be allowed to remain? A. Until the end of the choosing. Then death, hell, the devil, evil, and all that chose evil will be dealt with and cast away.
Hope that is beneficial to someone. I guess it's up for scrutiny if someone wants to do so, but it was just posted because I thought it was cool and thought others might gain from it.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Can't help but hear the words of Joseph in the old testament when I read the op.
"What you meant for evil God meant for good"
Satan is evil a theif and a murderer but as we learned from job he can do nothing without permission to believers in Christ. Are all men believers?
Where sin abounds grace abounds more.
If there were no evidence of sin then what would justify the truth? That would be like someone telling you what wet from water feels like without knowing what water is.
Wisdom cries in the streets but no man listens.
There is a cause and effect method that God controls. And his understanding is above ours. For the carnal man this is just how life is but for the spirit filled man whose eyes are opened to the truth this is the battle the Lord has called us to.
"What you meant for evil God meant for good"
Satan is evil a theif and a murderer but as we learned from job he can do nothing without permission to believers in Christ. Are all men believers?
Where sin abounds grace abounds more.
If there were no evidence of sin then what would justify the truth? That would be like someone telling you what wet from water feels like without knowing what water is.
Wisdom cries in the streets but no man listens.
There is a cause and effect method that God controls. And his understanding is above ours. For the carnal man this is just how life is but for the spirit filled man whose eyes are opened to the truth this is the battle the Lord has called us to.