Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

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trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#241
Aug 17, 2015
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#241
lightbearer said:
GOD did not make a mistake we did. We were made in GOD's image and likeness. We were not made to sin. This world is not as GOD intended. This world is the result of our choosing not GOD's. Because of our choices GOD had a plan in motion from the start. But GOD's intention from the beginning for mankind was to live in harmony in HIM; in love. We chose this through our own devising not GOD. This world and it's system is a result of sin not GOD's plan. HE is just working with it.
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I have some problems with such view:

1. It makes God to be just a reactive God, not a creator. Its like a chemicist who do something and wonders what will be the outcome. It makes God not knowing all and his actions to be random, experimental.

2. It makes no sense logically. If God is creator of everything what exists, He is the one setting rules and laws leading to everything that happens. So how can something that was not planned happen?
 
beta

beta

Senior Member
#242
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
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#242
lightbearer said:
GOD did not make a mistake we did. We were made in GOD's image and likeness. We were not made to sin. This world is not as GOD intended. This world is the result of our choosing not GOD's. Because of our choices GOD had a plan in motion from the start. But GOD's intention from the beginning for mankind was to live in harmony in HIM; in love. We chose this through our own devising not GOD. This world and it's system is a result of sin not GOD's plan. HE is just working with it.
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But the point being God KNEW how it would go, that we would sin and make a mess of it. God had already had experience with the angels who turned to sin so it was a given that inferior man would not-could not do better seeing we are a natural creation to start with who indeed can not submit to God.
So question is...God knowing all that still allowed it to happen....why ?
There is no other way but for man to ''experience in the flesh the results of DISagreeing with God ....since just telling them to obey had no effect on them !!!
Look at commandment-keeping as an example....God has been struggling with man for thousands of years to keep His Commandments and man still won't accept them...especially the 7th day Sabbath and therefore also rejecting the Lord of the Sabbath. Telling or commanding people to do something is sadly only working for a FEW Mat 7v13, 14, not even realising their resistance to God !
The more people THINK they know the less they are willing to submit because it 'clashes with their intellect upon which they rely....it's the nature of the natural man grounded in DISobedience.
Will experience teach them ? let's hope so !(just telling them won't).
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#243
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#243
trofimus said:
I have some problems with such view:

1. It makes God to be just a reactive God, not a creator. Its like a chemicist who do something and wonders what will be the outcome. It makes God not knowing all and his actions to be random, experimental.

2. It makes no sense logically. If God is creator of everything what exists, He is the one setting rules and laws leading to everything that happens. So how can something that was not planned happen?
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Contingency planning?
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#244
Nov 12, 2015
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#244
KelbyofGod said:
SBG,
Sorry to veer off topic for a minute there.
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Oh, I never , ever care about veering off topic! I think a thread like this has to be let to go in whatever direction the Spirit takes it. Otherwise, what would even be the point of starting a discussion on such a difficult and emotional topic? We would get absolutely nowhere on it without the Spirit! And if we hadn't been walking in the Spirit in love, it would have turned ugly within a few pages.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#245
Nov 12, 2015
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#245
trofimus said:
Of course it was intended. Our names were written in the book of life before the creation of the world.

Everything that lead to us was intended to be and to happen. Every detail. One insect flying a different direction than planned would cause a chain of causalities.
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We're back to if Gods' will was for the fall (evil) to happen or if it is just that He can work all things for our good - even things that weren't His will.

Just because God knows the end of me from the beginning, before I'm even born, and so knew I would be His, and so wrote my name in the book of life, does not mean that it was Gods' will that the fall happen. It just means that only Gods' will will out, in the end.

You have to admit it's odd, that even when you yourself would strenuously speak against that being Gods' will, if you discuss it enough, you sometimes find yourself saying what you spoke against being so. How does that happen?? I'm amazed everytime I see it happen to me and then I stop and go back through it all again to try to find what my objection was that led me to say the opposite of what I really know and believe.
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
#246
Oct 11, 2017
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#246
trofimus said:
I have some problems with such view:

1. It makes God to be just a reactive God, not a creator. Its like a chemicist who do something and wonders what will be the outcome. It makes God not knowing all and his actions to be random, experimental.

2. It makes no sense logically. If God is creator of everything what exists, He is the one setting rules and laws leading to everything that happens. So how can something that was not planned happen?
Click to expand...
But what if God created the world, created examples for us to learn by (OT), and instructions for us to follow (Commandments) and Created a way for us to "Choose" Him. What if He created "time" as a beginning and end of our "race" as Paul calls it.. Knowing how the flower looks when you plant the seed doesn't mean you made the flower. Just because God knows the end from the beginning doesn't mean He controls it all.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

He would have all men saved, but He knows "Many" will create their own path and will not be saved. Because He made them do it?

No, because He sees the end from the beginning and He knows who will deny themselves and follow Him and who will follow religions of the land.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#248
Nov 12, 2015
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#248
trofimus said:
Only God is perfect.

Any creation has limits ("flaws") that can be exploited if allowed. Even angels make mistakes, as the Bible says. How much more physical creatures having chemistry, fears, pains, diseases etc.

Our spiritual bodies will make us much better in power and glory, but angels are not without flaws either.
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I saw someone else respond to this and realized I missed this post yesterday.
God makes things flawed?
He creates flawed beings?
He doesn't create perfectly?
He even says about satan, you were perfect on the day I created you, until iniquity was found in you.

How could He create flawed beings and then punish them for being flawed...?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#249
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#249
Stunnedbygrace said:
We're back to if Gods' will was for the fall (evil) to happen or if it is just that He can work all things for our good - even things that weren't His will.

Just because God knows the end of me from the beginning, before I'm even born, and so knew I would be His, and so wrote my name in the book of life, does not mean that it was Gods' will that the fall happen. It just means that only Gods' will will out, in the end.

You have to admit it's odd, that even when you yourself would strenuously speak against that being Gods' will, if you discuss it enough, you sometimes find yourself saying what you spoke against being so. How does that happen?? I'm amazed everytime I see it happen to me and then I stop and go back through it all again to try to find what my objection was that led me to say the opposite of what I really know and believe.
Click to expand...
Logically, if God knew before creation how it will all goes if He will create it in this way, He created it willfully.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#250
Aug 17, 2015
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#250
Studyman said:
Knowing how the flower looks when you plant the seed doesn't mean you made the flower. Just because God knows the end from the beginning doesn't mean He controls it all.
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Its a human perspective. We, when we plant the seed, do not make the flower.

God is the creator of seed, of its functions, of the goal, of water, of earth, of every atom.

So He does control it.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#251
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#251
trofimus said:
I have some problems with such view:

1. It makes God to be just a reactive God, not a creator. Its like a chemicist who do something and wonders what will be the outcome. It makes God not knowing all and his actions to be random, experimental.

2. It makes no sense logically. If God is creator of everything what exists, He is the one setting rules and laws leading to everything that happens. So how can something that was not planned happen?
Click to expand...
You're doing it again here. Was it Gods' good plan for corruption/evil of any sort to enter all that He had made or is it just that
Gods' good will can work all for our good, even evil plots that it would never enter His mind to cause to happen?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#252
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#252
Stunnedbygrace said:
I saw someone else respond to this and realized I missed this post yesterday.
God makes things flawed?
He creates flawed beings?
He doesn't create perfectly?
He even says about satan, you were perfect on the day I created you, until iniquity was found in you.

How could He create flawed beings and then punish them for being flawed...?
Click to expand...
Flaw is your term. I prefer "limited".

When I create a bow, is it a flaw that it does not shoot as far as automatic rifle? Its just semantics.

Every creation is limited, only God is perfect, without limit, without "flaws".
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
#253
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#253
trofimus said:
Its a human perspective. We, when we plant the seed, do not make the flower.

God is the creator of seed, of its functions, of the goal, of water, of earth, of every atom.

So He does control it.
Click to expand...
So then you must believe all those who will be cast in the Lake of Fire were picked by God for this condemnation and didn't even have a choice?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#254
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#254
Stunnedbygrace said:
You're doing it again here. Was it Gods' good plan for corruption/evil of any sort to enter all that He had made or is it just that
Gods' good will can work all for our good, even evil plots that it would never enter His mind to cause to happen?
Click to expand...
Did God knew everything what will happen if He will create our Universe?

If He did, than everything that happens was planned and has its place.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#256
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#256
Studyman said:
So then you must believe all those who will be cast in the Lake of Fire were picked by God for this condemnation and didn't even have a choice?
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Our choices are based on various inner and external sources we have no control of. God does. But He does not force us.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#257
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#257
trofimus said:
Logically, if God knew before creation how it will all goes if He will create it in this way, He created it willfully.
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You have come around to PB's original thought.

Yes it was His will to create all this we see.

If I buy a car and protect my interest with an insurance policy, it is not my will that my car become marred or that anyone comes to harm. It just means that I either know beforehand something bad will happen OR, I'm planning in case something bad happens.

God bought the car (created). He didn't create with the intent of the ruinitation we live in, but He saw what would happen because He sees everything at once (sees the end from the beginning). So He bought the insurance policy (had all finished/planned from the beginning) and rested on the 7th day.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#258
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#258
Stunnedbygrace said:
You have come around to PB's original thought.

Yes it was His will to create all this we see.

If I buy a car and protect my interest with an insurance policy, it is not my will that my car become marred or that anyone comes to harm. It just means that I either know beforehand something bad will happen OR, I'm planning in case something bad happens.

God bought the car (created). He didn't create with the intent of the ruinitation we live in, but He saw what would happen because He sees everything at once (sees the end from the beginning). So He bought the insurance policy (had all finished/planned from the beginning) and rested on the 7th day.
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Your example is human again.

You protect yourself with insurance, because you:

a) do not know the future
b) do not have power to change the future

God is different.
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#259
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#259
trofimus said:
Did God knew everything what will happen if He will create our Universe?

If He did, than everything that happens was planned and has its place.
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I know you will see this. It's the beginning of PB's and my conversation that you and I are now having.

God knowing all that will happen does not mean He planned the corruption - just that He knew it would happen.

God planned only what was good because He is good. Satan planned the bad, not God. But God is more powerful than satan, so He works the evil satan intends for good.

The main thing in the argument is that we not work ourselves into the corner in which we begin to say God planned evil and corruption. Do you see?
 
S

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#260
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#260
trofimus said:
Your example is human again.

You protect yourself with insurance, because you:

a) do not know the future
b) do not have power to change the future

God is different.
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Yes, please note that I said you buy insurance(have a plan in place) for one of two reasons. Either you know something bad is going to happen OR you're planning in case something bad might happen.

I'm not all knowing. I plan in case. God is allknowing , He plans because He knows it will happen.
 
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