Has Covid-19 changed/refined anyone's beliefs about how God heals today?

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Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,520
691
113
#21
With Covid-19, we have seen how many churches, even megachurches who strongly believe that the signs and wonders of Jesus in the 4 Gospels are still present for us today, having to switch to online service broadcasts, and stopping their healing groups from going around praying for healing.

What happen to these churches who often teach us the following:
  1. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13:8
  2. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12
  3. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
We read about how churches, who still insist on gathering today and going against social distancing, some of them ended up being new clusters of covid-19, and even today, I read about Rodney Howard Browne being arrested by the police. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/florida-pastor-arrested-river-church/index.html

Anyone has their views about how God heals today being modified by this real life incident?

For me, my view has been refined to this, covid-19 has shown that the era of healing as "signs and wonders" is truly over. If Jesus were to come to earth now, as he did during the 4 Gospels, he would have healed people with covid-19 who are brought to him, to show us a sign that he is God among us.

But now, in the present evil age , as Paul would say in Galatians 1:4, there are no more signs and wonders to expect, the body of Christ is groaning in our earthly bodies, waiting eagerly for the rapture and our bodies to be transformed into one just like Christ had when he resurrected.

Until that comes to past, healing is not guaranteed to anyone. Just as Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:20 that "Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.", and advise his "son" Timothy to drink a little wine instead of the dirty water because of his illness in 1 Timothy 5:23, likewise, the church is to exercise common sense, wash their hands, and practice social distancing.

Any views from interested Christians?
It only proves how bogus Pentecostal claims are when given ample opportunity to test them.
 

Runningman

Active member
Mar 4, 2020
133
140
43
#22
What's interesting is that we were already neck deep in pandemics that most of us, except the vulnerable, had already developed strong resistances against. The thing with COVID-19 is that it's novel, so people are overly-concerned because they're suddenly vulnerable to a dangerous virus.

I think if we look at plagues from a broader historical perspective, dating back thousands of years up until the present and then re-ask ourselves the question of how God heals today then the answer becomes apparent that nothing has changed.

We do, in fact, live in a fallen world; thorns, thistles, and plagues are part of that package deal.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,348
870
113
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#23
What's interesting is that we were already neck deep in pandemics that most of us, except the vulnerable, had already developed strong resistances against. The thing with COVID-19 is that it's novel, so people are overly-concerned because they're suddenly vulnerable to a dangerous virus.

I think if we look at plagues from a broader historical perspective, dating back thousands of years up until the present and then re-ask ourselves the question of how God heals today then the answer becomes apparent that nothing has changed.

We do, in fact, live in a fallen world; thorns, thistles, and plagues are part of that package deal.
We are not neck deep in Pandemics. The last world wide pandemic happened between 1918 and 1920. This current one attacks anyone
not just the weak, although the effects of getting it varies considerably in each individual. You are more likely to die from it if you are
elderly or have some underlying medical condition. There have been cases of young healthy people who have died. One example is a
21 year old woman who had no medical conditions whatsoever.
 

Runningman

Active member
Mar 4, 2020
133
140
43
#24
We are not neck deep in Pandemics. The last world wide pandemic happened between 1918 and 1920. This current one attacks anyone
not just the weak, although the effects of getting it varies considerably in each individual. You are more likely to die from it if you are
elderly or have some underlying medical condition. There have been cases of young healthy people who have died. One example is a
21 year old woman who had no medical conditions whatsoever.
(Sources: CDC)

Pandemic- Epidemic over a wide geographic area and affecting a large proportion of the population.

Current known cases of COVID-19 worldwide in 2020: 693,224

Current known cases of influenza worldwide in 2020: 38,000,000 - 54,000,000

Current known cases of HIV worldwide in 2020: 38,000,000

I can keep going, but you get the point now. There are pandemics everywhere already, but we're just used to them being around because we've figured out how to deal with them.

COVID-19 seems sensational because of alarmists and yes it is dangerous, but I think this is just indicative of how desensitized we are to how many deadly diseases are actually going around.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,348
870
113
72
#25
(Sources: CDC)

Pandemic- Epidemic over a wide geographic area and affecting a large proportion of the population.

Current known cases of COVID-19 worldwide in 2020: 693,224

Current known cases of influenza worldwide in 2020: 38,000,000 - 54,000,000

Current known cases of HIV worldwide in 2020: 38,000,000

I can keep going, but you get the point now. There are pandemics everywhere already, but we're just used to them being around because we've figured out how to deal with them.

COVID-19 seems sensational because of alarmists and yes it is dangerous, but I think this is just indicative of how desensitized we are to how many deadly diseases are actually going around.
We can be vaccinated against influenza. I have a vaccine every winter. As yet there is no vaccination against Covid 19 You appear to sound very complacent about it all. Do you suggest we all carry on as normal and participate in some bizarre form of Russian Roulette with our lives?
 

Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
189
74
28
#26
Well may I speak some truth? "Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching."

Now lets look at how some talk and Gods answer to that "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;"

Look how some talk about their family, brothers and sisters in Christ. Knowing that Christ will some day tell the sheep and goats "if you did it to the least of these my brethren". The ones that are being talked about are HIS brethren.. His kids.

I have no clue why "pentecostal and charismatic" get talked about like this. I can't find Jesus ever using those words those groups. So YOU please tell me what Christ means by who so ever and in my name "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The simple fact is.. why are you not praying for the sick? No where is it written ONLY Pastors, prophets and Apostles can pray for the sick. We read in the gospels a man was going around healing. The 12 wanted to stop him. Christ said.. these signs shall follow them that believe. They follow me. There happening all over the world right now. Focus on the bad or negative and thats what you will see.

I am no one. My word have no wright. I can share with you SO many stories of the things GOD has done in my life. Blow you away. But.. makes me shine and.. not wise. I sin just as much or more then anyone else. I repent all the time. I cry out to be so much like Him to see people through His eyes.. to feel to have that compassion He has. My only reasoning to why this happens is.. I just believe what He said. A verse to this very day that just JUMPS out is where Peter and John at the gate. What they had you and me have. They even said it at the end.. we didnt do this by our own power its faith in that name.

These signs follow them that believe. THOSE are the people I put around me. I put those of faith. That say "if we say anything that is now written do not believe us". If I doubt I will not get anything from God. He provided all we will ever need. No gift is gone.. its all working today. Take a trip to some 3rd world nation. You will see SO much power of God there. Then come back to America.... WOW...so much doubt. You have JESUS in you.. those SIGNS are HIM in you. Its not you. You just do what HE said.. just believe. Not what I say or anyone else. DONT BELIEVE ME Jesus is real.. Hes alive. You can pray seek and simply ASK HIM!

Faith works BOTH WAYS! You and me do receive just what we believe and say. So look listen to the word you speak. Are they HIS? Do you watch listen feel as the world does? ON earth as it IS in heaven. No sickness there. HIS will be done. If I offended forgive me
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,844
659
113
#27
Well may I speak some truth? "Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching."

Now lets look at how some talk and Gods answer to that "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;"

Look how some talk about their family, brothers and sisters in Christ. Knowing that Christ will some day tell the sheep and goats "if you did it to the least of these my brethren". The ones that are being talked about are HIS brethren.. His kids.

I have no clue why "pentecostal and charismatic" get talked about like this. I can't find Jesus ever using those words those groups. So YOU please tell me what Christ means by who so ever and in my name "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The simple fact is.. why are you not praying for the sick? No where is it written ONLY Pastors, prophets and Apostles can pray for the sick. We read in the gospels a man was going around healing. The 12 wanted to stop him. Christ said.. these signs shall follow them that believe. They follow me. There happening all over the world right now. Focus on the bad or negative and thats what you will see.

I am no one. My word have no wright. I can share with you SO many stories of the things GOD has done in my life. Blow you away. But.. makes me shine and.. not wise. I sin just as much or more then anyone else. I repent all the time. I cry out to be so much like Him to see people through His eyes.. to feel to have that compassion He has. My only reasoning to why this happens is.. I just believe what He said. A verse to this very day that just JUMPS out is where Peter and John at the gate. What they had you and me have. They even said it at the end.. we didnt do this by our own power its faith in that name.

These signs follow them that believe. THOSE are the people I put around me. I put those of faith. That say "if we say anything that is now written do not believe us". If I doubt I will not get anything from God. He provided all we will ever need. No gift is gone.. its all working today. Take a trip to some 3rd world nation. You will see SO much power of God there. Then come back to America.... WOW...so much doubt. You have JESUS in you.. those SIGNS are HIM in you. Its not you. You just do what HE said.. just believe. Not what I say or anyone else. DONT BELIEVE ME Jesus is real.. Hes alive. You can pray seek and simply ASK HIM!

Faith works BOTH WAYS! You and me do receive just what we believe and say. So look listen to the word you speak. Are they HIS? Do you watch listen feel as the world does? ON earth as it IS in heaven. No sickness there. HIS will be done. If I offended forgive me
My view is that there is a clear distinction between the signs and wonders "healings" during the 4 gospels vs the miraculous healings we see nowadays.

Those signs and wonders Jesus did left people in no doubt that something really special has happened.

The healings we see now, in the church that I am attending in Singapore, are mostly the senior pastor calling out people with body aches, arm pains, etc etc, that really, even when the person in the congregation stands up and testify publicly, any objective person can tell these healings are a far cry from the signs and wonders performed by Jesus in the 4 Gospels.

The best example was the final sign recorded in John, the resurrection of Lazarus. Jesus deliberately waited until Laz was dead for 4 days. In the Jewish custom, someone who is dead for 3 days or less, the Jews believe that the spirit still linger near the body, so if it were to come back to life, people can easily deemed that as, you said, "mild cases".

So when Jesus approached Laz in the burial at day 4, every Jew who is there, including Mary and Martha, have zero doubt that Laz is dead.

So when Jesus cause Laz to resurrect, it was such a powerful sign that even the Priests and others were aware that, if they don't do anything, all the Jews would really acknowledged Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah.

John 11:47-48
47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many [l]signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,844
659
113
#31
Well they are trying to do what Jesus did to the fig tree, cursing it but the physical manifestation of what is true in the spiritual realm only came forth later.

No harm, no foul there.
 

chanchuinchoy

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2015
335
50
28
Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
#32
So what were your views on whether we can expect the same signs and wonders in the 4 Gospels to happen again today?
2000 years ago, Jesus came to this world in humanity. We ere tld in the Bible hat Jesus will come again the second time, as Kings of Kings, Lords of Lords, to judge the world and to defeat Satan and his companions.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,844
659
113
#33
2000 years ago, Jesus came to this world in humanity. We ere tld in the Bible hat Jesus will come again the second time, as Kings of Kings, Lords of Lords, to judge the world and to defeat Satan and his companions.
Are you answering with a yes or no? Are signs and wonders still in force today or after the rapture of the Body of Christ?
 

chanchuinchoy

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2015
335
50
28
Sungei Buloh, Selangor, Malaysia
#34
Are you answering with a yes or no? Are signs and wonders still in force today or after the rapture of the Body of Christ?
I dont' really understand your question" are the signs and wonders still in force today or after the rapture ..........
Before I answer your question, may ask you;
1) Do you have any knowledge on the Bible about this subject? If not, very difficult for me to explain it to you and you wont believe and we might end up arguing which I am trying to avoid.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,844
659
113
#35
I dont' really understand your question" are the signs and wonders still in force today or after the rapture ..........
Before I answer your question, may ask you;
1) Do you have any knowledge on the Bible about this subject? If not, very difficult for me to explain it to you and you wont believe and we might end up arguing which I am trying to avoid.
No worries, I respect anyone with a different point of view, I seek mainly to understand where others are coming from.

Signs and wonders are miracles that point towards "something". They are not random acts.

You can just explain your point of view, what you believe in.
 

Runningman

Active member
Mar 4, 2020
133
140
43
#36
We can be vaccinated against influenza. I have a vaccine every winter. As yet there is no vaccination against Covid 19 You appear to sound very complacent about it all. Do you suggest we all carry on as normal and participate in some bizarre form of Russian Roulette with our lives?
Having vaccines, low mortality rates, and minimal news coverage doesn't change what a pandemic is.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
1,795
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#37
Well they are trying to do what Jesus did to the fig tree, cursing it but the physical manifestation of what is true in the spiritual realm only came forth later.

No harm, no foul there.
Except it will prove they are false, impotent claimants.

But, I already know that :)

And, so do thinking Christians.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,348
870
113
72
#38
So Kenneth Copeland thinks the Virus is finished. Bad news here in the UK on 1 April its still killing people including a boy of 13 and
a young man of 19 both were in good health at the time. How long will it take for people to see through these false teachers like
Copeland?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
1,795
113
#39
So Kenneth Copeland thinks the Virus is finished. Bad news here in the UK on 1 April its still killing people including a boy of 13 and
a young man of 19 both were in good health at the time. How long will it take for people to see through these false teachers like
Copeland?
Sad....yeah, it should be apparent....I think it is spiritual bondage rather than a knowledge issue.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,798
699
113
#40
I believe this is a warning shot. I believe God has allowed this to happen to get all of our attention. Saints and sinners.
The same as in the past with the other plagues.
I believe we need to listen very carefully on what the Lord will have us do. Social distancing is not against the Lord but to go against it is tempting him.
Has he got your attention now?
The time is coming and is already here that these events and many others shall be common in our lives.
God uses cause and effect in my opinion to serve his purpose.
In the days of Moses the Israelites were to stay inside after painting the door post and follow the instructions of the Lord.
Are your door post painted?
The Lord in many cases calls upon his people to repent not the wicked but his people.
I must say that personally I have been luke warm in my walk and need the holy spirit to bring the fire again not only for me but for the sake of others.
The church needs to get back on track and that begins when we seek our first love.
Moses and Jesus were prime examples of standing in the stead of others. Praying for those who don't pray. Seeking for those who don't seek. Upholding those that are weak, diligently seeking the lost.