Has Covid-19 changed/refined anyone's beliefs about how God heals today?

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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
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#41
Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.

 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,520
691
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#42
Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8088740
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#43
This association between mental disorders and charismatic theology is valid, I think.

There was a young man here who attended the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry in the UK. After he realized he was believing lies, and they could not teach him how to walk through walls like Jesus, he became very despondent and depressed. I don't even know if he professes faith anymore, sadly.

Before anyone claims anything to the contrary, I do believe God heals according to his sovereign will, and he doesn't heal according to his sovereign will.

I simply don't believe that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith types have a correct understanding on the related issues. For instance, Bill Johnson denies that suffering is used by God to sanctify the believer. Nor am I amused by his angel feathers/gold dust claims, or his kenotic view of the Incarnation.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,520
691
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#44
This association between mental disorders and charismatic theology is valid, I think.

There was a young man here who attended the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry in the UK. After he realized he was believing lies, and they could not teach him how to walk through walls like Jesus, he became very despondent and depressed. I don't even know if he professes faith anymore, sadly.

Before anyone claims anything to the contrary, I do believe God heals according to his sovereign will, and he doesn't heal according to his sovereign will.

I simply don't believe that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith types have a correct understanding on the related issues. For instance, Bill Johnson denies that suffering is used by God to sanctify the believer. Nor am I amused by his angel feathers/gold dust claims, or his kenotic view of the Incarnation.
I think they start normal and drive themselves crazy through false doctrine. I saw one douse herself with gas and light a match. A THD mainline seminary professor goes crazy and kills himself and over 100 people from various mainline backgrounds, all from treatable conditions. Jim Jones? You don't see this stuff in mainline churches.
 

biker

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2020
1,389
244
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#45
No, I do not believe the deaths and progression of this virus in how it continues to evolve into something that can now attack all age groups reflects God's Healing Power. If anything, since we know locust has destroyed much of South Africa and parts of Muslim Territory and it continues to be growing out of hand, plus this covid-19 has not just crashed the markets but the economy is on verge of tanking, and then we have Saudi Arabia not obeying OPEC Laws with Russia and forcing our own oil prices to tank to the point we have shut down and laid off several hundred thousand oil related workers, I have no issue in calling this a Plague.

If anything, it confirms we are indeed in the End of Times. And with it being "prophesied" all the suffering upon humanity including the "Elect," I have no doubts we are watching portions of Matthew 24 and Revelations taking place before our very eyes.
 

ArtsieSteph

Senior Member
Apr 1, 2014
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Arizona
#46
Honestly I’ve been taken aback by how how hard it’s hit the country, and how hard sometimes God is willing to let stuff hit us when we as humans need a rebuke.
 

biker

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2020
1,389
244
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#47
Honestly I’ve been taken aback by how how hard it’s hit the country, and how hard sometimes God is willing to let stuff hit us when we as humans need a rebuke.

I agree, it's a true awakening. But then again, we know for years other true Believers in Nations separate from our own have been persecuted for their beliefs. This could be the doorway to our turn to suffer. We murder innocent babies by abortion, we have allowed same sex to be a norm and allowed it to even infiltrate some churches, our Presidents have been known for centuries to go to California and practice a secret sect of Moloch Worship, we have a nation who believes more in Science over God being real. This Nation has turned its back on God. What did we think, we were exempt? Not any more.
 

biker

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2020
1,389
244
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#48
The one thing I must confess that fascinates me the most about covid-19, the A-List of Celebrities dying. Just proves money and fame cannot save you from God. And HollyWeird has destroyed the purpose and people of God for years now. I know many are dying who no one is even aware that exist, but I have never seen so many actors, actresses, dj's, singers, song writers, whatever die so fast within weeks and days of one another from the "same source."

I'd say God is either trying to wake some people up, or He is starting to clean house.
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
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#50
Honestly I’ve been taken aback by how how hard it’s hit the country, and how hard sometimes God is willing to let stuff hit us when we as humans need a rebuke.

I'm happy you've had such an uneventful life. Most Native Americans aren't afraid like most of the rest of the population, because most of this crap we've already experienced. :cool:
 

laughingheart

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2016
1,461
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#51
Righteousness is only rewarded by God, by Grace through Faith in Christ and Him Crucified (Rom. 4:5)...these are the children of God.
So no one with cancer is right relationship with God? Paul, with his physical afflictions, the blind, the deaf, those with any disease, myself with lupus, none of us are loved and forgiven by God through Christ? This is not scriptural. It does not match the nature of God. His blessings must not be limited to health and wealth. I know one day I will be healed but it just might not be on this side of life. Whether healthy or ill I trust that God works all things for good for His purposes. If His purposes are best served by me in this condition then it is not for man to interfere with what God is creating.
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
2,058
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#52
So no one with cancer is right relationship with God? Paul, with his physical afflictions, the blind, the deaf, those with any disease, myself with lupus, none of us are loved and forgiven by God through Christ? This is not scriptural. It does not match the nature of God. His blessings must not be limited to health and wealth. I know one day I will be healed but it just might not be on this side of life. Whether healthy or ill I trust that God works all things for good for His purposes. If His purposes are best served by me in this condition then it is not for man to interfere with what God is creating.

This person likely has mental health issues, and doesn't listen to reason.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
13,595
7,374
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#54
This association between mental disorders and charismatic theology is valid, I think.

There was a young man here who attended the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry in the UK. After he realized he was believing lies, and they could not teach him how to walk through walls like Jesus, he became very despondent and depressed. I don't even know if he professes faith anymore, sadly.

Before anyone claims anything to the contrary, I do believe God heals according to his sovereign will, and he doesn't heal according to his sovereign will.

I simply don't believe that charismatics/Pentecostals/Word of Faith types have a correct understanding on the related issues. For instance, Bill Johnson denies that suffering is used by God to sanctify the believer. Nor am I amused by his angel feathers/gold dust claims, or his kenotic view of the Incarnation.
You're grasping at any anomaly to support your view. It's the same approach that treats The View like it's neutral journalism.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,844
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#55
Nope. He hasn't changed. :cool:
So why do you think Paul advised Timothy to drink wine instead of water because of the latter's illness? Why not just tell him about Mark 16:17-18?

Didn't he get the memo that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
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#56
Here's a few more videos demonstrating some of the problems with the charismatic movement.

First one is Kenneth Copeland's alleged destruction of the Corona virus. Second one is a great show by John Sampson and Steven Bancarz concerning the many problems with the charismatic movement. John used to work for Copeland, and Steven was brought up as a Pentecostal. He got involved in New Age teaching as a young adult, but was then converted by God to Christianity. He has visited charismatic churches since becoming a believer, and recognizes some of the same evil spirits that are involved in charismatic teachings.

Particularly, he plays a few clips by Bob Jones, who is the father of the charismatic movement. Bob Jones was a major figure in the life of Kenneth Copeland, as well as other charismatics. Listen to his words yourself and determine if he is a sound believer. I think not.

With regards to charismatics, they have repeatedly shown bad judgement in terms of doctrine. Besides their own doctrinal issues, charismatics have called men like William Branham "God's general". William Branham was a oneness Pentecostal who claimed to be a prophet. Well, he missed the boat with that claim, because he was one of the endorsers of Jim Jones' ministry.

The fact that significant charismatics laud William Branham is telling, because, in essence, they are approving the teachings of a heretic who denies the Trinity, and who claimed all kinds of weird experiences.

Jim Jones is the cult leader who lead about 900 people to their deaths.

You guys might as well forget about convincing me that charismatics are worthy of serious consideration. I have seen way too much to fall for that. And, the video with John Sampson and Steven Bancarz will give you some of the reasons why the movement is discredited by all sound Christians.

Like Steven says, 50 percent of the church thinks that recent charismatic teaches are Satanic, 25 percent think it's of the flesh, and the other 25 percent believes it.

By the way, Steven believes that the miraculous sign gifts are still in existence today, but he does not support the charismatic movement as a whole.

One notable remark was that this skyscraper of charismatic teaching is built on a dime-size piece of real estate.

Notice that Bob Jones claims that unbelievers have the Kingdom of God within them at birth, and they just need to access it. He doesn't seem to realize that man is fallen, and needs to be born again. Such basic facts about Christianity are being denied by charismatics like him, and he is one of the main teachers of charismatics.

 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
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#57
I think they start normal and drive themselves crazy through false doctrine. I saw one douse herself with gas and light a match. A THD mainline seminary professor goes crazy and kills himself and over 100 people from various mainline backgrounds, all from treatable conditions. Jim Jones? You don't see this stuff in mainline churches.
Jim Jones was a charismatic.

I attended a church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. One of the members told me he was part of Jim Jones' congregation in Indianapolis, before he moved out to California.

He would push the podium over with his leg and claimed that the Holy Spirit did it. Apparently he was pretty good at disguising the fact that he did it himself.

Anyways, you are right that he was a charismatic...and William Branham spoke at an event meant to gather membership for Jim Jones' congregation. Branham was a Oneness Pentecostal who claimed to be a prophet.

Yet, he apparently didn't have a prophetic gift because he promoted the ministry of a man who killed almost 900 people. Seems like his prophetic gift wasn't working that time.

By the way, charismatics will still call Branham "God's general". They do this even though he was a heretic who denied the Trinity and promoted the "serpent seed" doctrine.

That's one of the problems with charismatics. They don't study the theology of those that they select as heroes.

Another example is Charles Finney. Finney denied justification by faith alone, imputed righeousness, original sin, and believed in sinless perfectionism. Yet, noteable charismatics proclaimed him to be a great evangelist. These doctrines are core Christian salvation teachings. One person who lauded Charles Finney was Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel. This is amazing to me, because Chuck wasn't a totally ignorant guy, but apparently he didn't know Finney was heretical and made many positive remarks about him.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,503
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#58
This video basically summarizes my thoughts on a significant portion of charismatic organizations....it is demonic, and reflects the work of a counterfeit spirit.

2 Cor 11:3 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough

2 Cor 11: 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Those who are excessively interested in spiritual manifestations and doing things like leaving their bodies are most assuredly being seduced by these false teachers.

I also respect Costi Hinn, a nephew of Benny Hinn, who is also involved in exposing individuals like Kenneth Copeland and Bill Johnson.

By the way, Steven Bancarz is apparently associated with the charismatic movement in some way so he isn't totally dismissive of them (which is my tendency). He was a New Age teacher before being saved. John Sampson, the other person, was associated with Kenneth Copeland at one point.

Why am I dismissive of charismatics? Their understanding adds nothing to me. I enjoy studying the Bible and relishing in doctrines like union and identity in Christ, and seeing the shadows and types of the OT. I already know I'm joined with Christ, and I don't need to go looking for emotional experiences to validate my faith. I don't need the sense of power or emotional stimulus that apparently charismatic beliefs give some people.

 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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#59
That's one of the problems with charismatics. They don't study the theology of those that they select as heroes.
How many are there in your congregation or are you a member of a congregation? So theology is what you based your heroes on? Do I have heroes, yes I do. Mercy, Truth, Equity, Justice, Compassion are a few of my heroes but those principles are probably a little too charismatic for you.

Why am I dismissive of charismatics? Their understanding adds nothing to me
Sounds like in your wisdom that you built your house on the rock? But of course if one doesn't understand him when he spoke about earthly things then do you think they would have any understanding of the heavenly things he spoke of?

. They deny that God gave them a heart of flesh, to replace their stony, dead heart, and this heart produces faith
The truth reproves that theology. We speak of things we know and have seen, not things we believe and have read. If you consider it to be true that which is flesh is born of the flesh then what would a heart of flesh profit?

Have you not read why is written that Jesus said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. They contain the light that transforms us by the renewing of our minds.

Do you believe that there are three that bear witness in the earth? Breath, the mind and the beat that make the soul but it is the Holy Ghost that gives it life. If the vipers being evil can't speak good things then do you think that the LORD would give the Holy Spirit to those vipers who asked since the demons believe in one God too?

Of course, those children who are tossed to and fro by the winds of the doctrines of men wouldn't have anything in their understanding since the Greek term, pneuma (4151) means forced air; breath which translates into English a spirit. But the term pneuma does not mean nor even suggest light.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Cor 2:12-13