Have you believed the false grace message?

[Ariel82]

Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done.

So this is what you believe?

Barely skims upon what I believe.

I don't get stuck on terms like Arminian or Catholic.

I do believe that God Grace was given before humans even realized they needed saving. That many people experience God's grace without recognizing it for what it was.

They foolishly think that it was their decision alone that saved them. They don't recognize how God worked in their lives to bring them to a point where they had humble and contrite hearts good soil, able to accept the gospel Seed.

Many people don't see God working in the lives of others and leading them to that point. Because of their false view of how they were saved (by their own choice, not acknowledging the divine hand in their acceptance) they add burdens to make it harder.

We look at the Pharisees in Jesus time and learn that many people have outward obedience without the inward joy and acceptance as children of God.

Got to drive my daughter to school,

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Are we slaves or are we free children of the King?

Do we belong to Hagar or Sarah?

Jerusalem below or above?

Old or new covenant?

we are in servanthood by choice that adopts us into children of God

This is the gift of God. This is what happens when we invite Jesus into our hearts. We are choosing to serve him and others for life. Jesus died to give all the chance to be saved. And so the predestined are all who choose to believe and God the all knowing can see the beginning, present, and the end. He can see who will believe and who wont but this doesn't take away from the free will. God is just all knowing.

 

[PeterJens]

Can you elaborate, maybe a scenario? When you say "Will they come back?" What do you mean, back to salvation? When you say "no one is safe" Do you mean in salvation?

I have two friends.
The first was very sensitive, and took hurts very seriously.
He seemed to follow the Lord, but his way of being got too much and he wandered away.

The second was very commited.
One day his son rebelled and upset him deeply. He felt he could never forgive him for what
he had said and done. This burnt in his heart to the extent he renounced his faith and stopped
coming to church. It was a bolt from the blue, totally unexpected but threw him totally.

I talked to him in this period and his words were "I do not mind going to hell for this, I do
not care. I am not going to forgive my son."

This carried on for a whole year until he realised how futile this position was and why
was he holding out so strongly for something that was not that significant.

Now until this kind of thing happens, you do not know how you are going to react,
because it comes down to you emotional foundations. But these foundations define
us though are unspoken it is where we find our security and sense of identity.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

 

[Roughsoul1991]

“Now we cannot...discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going tobring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

 

[PeterJens]

FIVE MARKS OF THE FALSE-GRACE DOCTRINE

ONE. We believe in a theology of exemption.

TWO. Sin is treated as temporally troubling but eternally benign.

THREE. Repentance and confession of sin is not necessary after we have been saved.

FOUR. A biblical works message is renounced as legalism.

FIVE. Salvation is depicted as easy and/or permanent.
Jesus didn’t die on the cross to make it easy for us to get saved. He died so it would be possible for us to get saved

..,,,,

His bullet points.

I like the summary because it is exactly what the false grace group preach.
The problem we suffer in the christian church is definning what sin is and what
walking in the Spirit is. Coming on cc has made it plain to me, this sense of we
are all total failures, sinning left right and centre is actually a mistake.

We are disappointed on our goals but they are not Christs goals or expectations.
We know we should be doing something, but often we have no clue really what
that is. We try lots of different things, which often lead to disappointment and
failure.

But the sense of sin and the sense of disappointment are not good things to be
focused on. There is truly much more than this, in the cross and love.

 

[FreeNChrist]

“Now we cannot...discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going tobring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Good quotes. Do they reflect what John Burton is preaching and teaching, or those he is preaching and teaching against??

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It only needs a heart from the wizard of Oz.....burns nicely though doesn't it?

It actually appears to be some of every denomination of you don't have a firm understanding of the theology behind general statements. So would be a useful tool to turn people from most established churches and have them feel justified in judging all those who attend such churches as going to hell.

It's a dangerous road many walk and attempt to tempt others to follow them when they begin to judge others salvation.

In the article he mentions Many in the false-grace movement will be subject to hell. True or False? Is his assumption judging or based off scripture

2 Peter 2:1-3Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[h=3]The Judgment of False Teachers[/h]2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.

If someone is teaching false grace then the bible is the one judging.

 

[FreeNChrist]

In the article he mentions Many in the false-grace movement will be subject to hell. True or False? Is his assumption judging or based off scripture

2 Peter 2:1-3Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)The Judgment of False Teachers

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.

If someone is teaching false grace then the bible is the one judging.

Right. We need to pray for John Burton that he repents.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Good quotes. Do they reflect what John Burton is preaching and teaching, or those he is preaching and teaching against??

Quote from the article,"Sin can still separate a follower of Christ from him."

“Now we cannot...discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Seems similar to me. I do not know anything about this John guy and only read his article here which point to like 5 things people misunderstand. I do believe people misunderstand them.

I have been saying over and over works do not save us but doing nothing even as we screw up wont save anyone either as C.S.Lewis says.

Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home.

So in both senses this is explained by james 2:22

[SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

 

[MadebyHim]

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:20-26


[SUP]8 [/SUP](For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 2 Peter 2:8-10




[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2Peter 20-22

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Right. We need to pray for John Burton that he repents.

I pray we all remember to repent everyday from our deliberate sins against God. I seem to remember only one man being perfect.

 

[Ariel82]

God can see into people's hearts: do they teach Christ's gospel as much as they know and understand from love of Him or do they teach in order to gain power, control and material wealth over other people?

Two people can say the same words and one will end up in hell and another in heaven because the motives in their hearts are different.

Don't believe me?

Compare Satan and those who he quoted while tempting Jesus.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Quote from the article,"Sin can still separate a follower of Christ from him."

“Now we cannot...discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Seems similar to me. I do not know anything about this John guy and only read his article here which point to like 5 things people misunderstand. I do believe people misunderstand them.

I have been saying over and over works do not save us but doing nothing even as we screw up wont save anyone either as C.S.Lewis says.

Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home.

So in both senses this is explained by james 2:22

[SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

Those quotes perfectly describe those who Burton is railing against. Those who understand that it is not our keeping the Law that saves us, it is our accepting our failure to keep the Law that does. Because that is what leads to that vital moment when we turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”

That IS the very grace message that Burton has labeled as the "false grace message".

 

[Ariel82]

“Now we cannot...discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest (and then failing). Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going tobring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

This quote shows how trying to follow the Law leads people to Christ and His grace.

It's ironic that you highlight the striving part, when I set my eyes and my hope that all will come to the end of striving to acceptance of Christ and giving all control back to God.

That is what true faith is: trusting in God's grace and power to save unworthy sinners from ourselves and our follies.

Until people reach that vital moment of surrender, they haven't died with Christ and can't understand what it means to be born again in Him.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Those quotes perfectly describe those who Burton is railing against. Those who understand that it is not our keeping the Law that saves us, it is our accepting our failure to keep the Law that does. Because that is what leads to that vital moment when we turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”

That IS the very grace message that Burton has labeled as the "false grace message".

No just as I stated above in another post we are not completely out of the equation. Their is a reason why we have the name Christian. Which was insulted at us for trying to be like Christ. Why be like Christ if our actions does nothing to improve our faith in salvation?

 

[PennEd]

I respect your opinion but I feel the need to enlighten you.

John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[SUP]16 [/SUP]“For God loved the world in this way:[SUP][a][/SUP] He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

I would be careful talking about God in that way when it could be your just lacking in understanding and that's okay. Oh and yes believing and coming to repentance is a personal choice. God may first seek us but he will never force anyone to seek him. He predestined all
once he sent his son to die for all. The only thing anyone must do is answer the call and invite our Lord and Savior in.

1 Timothy 2:3-4New International Version (NIV)[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [SUP]4[/SUP]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


Also when you take scripture out of context to fit OSAS, you must post everything that belongs to the scripture that are before it or after it. This why it gives everyone the choice to figure out if that scripture fits your view.

John 10:27-29Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
[SUP]27[/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. [SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

As long as we follow, no one can take eternal life from you. If we choose to follow our own desires, no where in scripture does it say we are forced by God to never be able to backslide and fall away. The spirit is our seal and if we do not walk in the spirit. We are again under the law.

[SUP]25[/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit And the only way to not be under the law of sin is to follow and be led by the spirit [SUP]18[/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.





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Ahh! This young man is so mixed up. I honestly pray the Lord will open his eyes.

The bolded part is pure works doctrine. There really is no other way to say it. You are saying that unless YOU perform in a certain manner YOU will not be saved. This is really a form of what we have seen alot of here recently, which is a sinless perfection doctrine. Do you believe it is YOUR following that keeps you saved? If so, how many sins do you have to commit before you are lost?
Luke 15:[FONT=&quot]4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

[/FONT]There is your Scripture you asked for. The Lord will retrieve ALL His sheep. He will go after them UNTIL He finds them!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This quote shows how trying to follow the Law leads people to Christ and His grace.

It's ironic that you highlight the striving part, when I set my eyes and my hope that all will come to the end of striving to acceptance of Christ and giving all control back to God.

That is what true faith is: trusting in God's grace and power to save unworthy sinners from ourselves and our follies.

Until people reach that vital moment of surrender, they haven't died with Christ and can't understand what it means to be born again in Him.

Yes and the reason I highlighted it was not to make it more important but you was saying our efforts has nothing to do with the building of our faith in salvation when he plainly says Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. so in 2 senses this is what leads to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”

 

[blue_ladybug]

There is no such thing as FALSE grace. God does not extend false grace, then say "sorry false grace is all you get". He only extends REAL grace.. End of story.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Ahh! This young man is so mixed up. I honestly pray the Lord will open his eyes.

The bolded part is pure works doctrine. There really is no other way to say it. You are saying that unless YOU perform in a certain manner YOU will not be saved. This is really a form of what we have seen alot of here recently, which is a sinless perfection doctrine. Do you believe it is YOUR following that keeps you saved? If so, how many sins do you have to commit before you are lost?
Luke 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

There is your Scripture you asked for. The Lord will retrieve ALL His sheep. He will go after them UNTIL He finds them!

You also forgot some of it
Luke 17:1-7
All the tax collectors and sinners were approaching to listen to Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Pharisees and scribes were complaining, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them!”[SUP]3 [/SUP]So He told them this parable: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“What man among you, who has 100 sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open field[SUP][a][/SUP] and go after the lost one until he finds it? [SUP]5 [/SUP]When he has found it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and coming home, he calls his friends and neighbors together, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my lost sheep!
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance.

Oh and Jesus was also speaking to anyone who is living in sin or back slides. As he was speaking to sinners.