Have you believed the false grace message?

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FreeNChrist

Senior Member
Aug 24, 2015
7,877
160
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No just as I stated above in another post we are not completely out of the equation. Their is a reason why we have the name Christian. Which was insulted at us for trying to be like Christ. Why be like Christ if our actions does nothing to improve our faith in salvation?
You don't make yourself "like Christ". Let go of those reins and let Christ be who He is in you and through you.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
5,620
1,242
113
You also forgot some of it
Luke 17:1-7
All the tax collectors and sinners were approaching to listen to Him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Pharisees and scribes were complaining, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them!”[SUP]3 [/SUP]So He told them this parable: [SUP]4 [/SUP]“What man among you, who has 100 sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open field[SUP][a][/SUP] and go after the lost one until he finds it? [SUP]5 [/SUP]When he has found it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and coming home, he calls his friends and neighbors together, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my lost sheep!
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]
I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance.

Oh and Jesus was also speaking to anyone who is living in sin or back slides. As he was speaking to sinners.
I didn't "forget" any of it. I posted relevant to your point. I can post the WHOLE Bible if you like. It all says the same thing.

YOU are not a CO- savior! YOU following Jesus doesn't save you. HE DOES!

This is a vital difference. It is at the heart of your works based salvation doctrine.
Please pray for revelation from the Holy Spirit on this matter. I can explain it to you, but only HE can reveal it to you.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Yes and the reason I highlighted it was not to make it more important but you was saying our efforts has nothing to do with the building of our faith in salvation when he plainly says Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. so in 2 senses this is what leads to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say, "You must do this. I can't.”
I don't think you understand the point being made.

Saul was a Pharisee striving to follow the Law. That lead him to killing Christians.

Many people claim to be following God but are just like Saul before he met Jesus on the road.

They cling to their filthy rags and hold them up as "good works" that helps them to be saved. Then turn around to find Christians teaching grace and seek to kill them with their words.

Grace and salvation is realising that all your efforts to save yourself are filthy rags. Only what Jesus did was good enough.

What happens after you are born again is that God helps you tear down the spiritual strongholds that war against His wisdom.

Some people preach you have to work to bring water to the world. Yet do you make water flow downhill?

God makes the water move.

You just need to stop building a dam to prevent the water from flowing into your life and the lives of others.

God isn't asking you to strive more, He is asking you to trust more.

Your efforts doesn't save you. Faith is a gift. Grace is a gift.

Both are from God and that is how God saves.

He gives His people rest. He shows them how to grow. How to remove the weeds, stones and lies they have believed and wash away the hurts so that we might heal.

He shows us the truth of how sin hurts not only others and God but ourselves, he teaches us how to stop cutting and abusing ourselves. He is kind,patient and gentle.

God is so much more than people portray him as.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,113
40
48
You don't make yourself "like Christ". Let go of those reins and let Christ be who He is in you and through you.
Trying to be is the same as imitating the teachings of Christ and the Word of God. Are you saying we should not do this?
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
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You don't make yourself "like Christ". Let go of those reins and let Christ be who He is in you and through you.
Now let us look at this question. Does our behaviour make us like Christ or not like Christ?

In Christ we are purified, made holy, acceptable to God. Walking in the Spirit we walk unto
life and eternity. Walking in rebellion, doing sinful acts, walking according to the passions
of the flesh leads to death. We can choose to do either.

So you can walk in the way of Christ. It does not save you, it is what salvation gives us,
the ability to walk righteously. But if you believe this is impossible, the language does not
apply because our walk is always sinful, so the choice is not even there.

And if the choice is not there, then you can never become like Christ by behaviour, because
that is impossible and a pipe dream.

It means the language of consequences is based also on belief and experience. Unfortunately
there will never be a coming together on this because if you reject Pauls exhortations to walk in
a pure, holy way, either you can or you are not on the stage at all.
 
Mar 2, 2016
8,896
106
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Now let us look at this question. Does MY behaviour make ME like Christ or not like Christ?

In Christ we are purified, made holy, acceptable to God. Walking in the Spirit we walk unto
life and eternity. Walking in rebellion, doing sinful acts, walking according to the passions
of the flesh leads to death. We can choose to do either.

So you can walk in the way of Christ. It does not save you, it is what salvation gives us,
the ability to walk righteously. But if you believe this is impossible, the language does not
apply because our walk is always sinful, so the choice is not even there.

And if the choice is not there, then you can never become like Christ by behaviour, because
that is impossible and a pipe dream.

It means the language of consequences is based also on belief and experience. Unfortunately
there will never be a coming together on this because if you reject Pauls exhortations to walk in
a pure, holy way, either you can or you are not on the stage at all.

I fixed it for you.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,113
40
48
I don't think you understand the point being made.

Saul was a Pharisee striving to follow the Law. That lead him to killing Christians.

Many people claim to be following God but are just like Saul before he met Jesus on the road.

They cling to their filthy rags and hold them up as "good works" that helps them to be saved. Then turn around to find Christians teaching grace and seek to kill them with their words.

Grace and salvation is realising that all your efforts to save yourself are filthy rags. Only what Jesus did was good enough.

What happens after you are born again is that God helps you tear down the spiritual strongholds that war against His wisdom.

Some people preach you have to work to bring water to the world. Yet do you make water flow downhill?

God makes the water move.

You just need to stop building a dam to prevent the water from flowing into your life and the lives of others.

God isn't asking you to strive more, He is asking you to trust more.

Your efforts doesn't save you. Faith is a gift. Grace is a gift.

Both are from God and that is how God saves.

He gives His people rest. He shows them how to grow. How to remove the weeds, stones and lies they have believed and wash away the hurts so that we might heal.

He shows us the truth of how sin hurts not only others and God but ourselves, he teaches us how to stop cutting and abusing ourselves. He is kind,patient and gentle.

God is so much more than people portray him as.
Got to go bed for work but I would read all my post before thinking I am pushing selfish works gain our salvation. Its just a marry go round with some of you without the marry.

As it always is with everyone else that started threads like this.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
You don't make yourself "like Christ". Let go of those reins and let Christ be who He is in you and through you.
He is saying it's not your efforts but God working in you that can produce true godliness.

He is NOT sayng people shouldn't desire to be more like Christ. Just disagreeing on How and who makes them more like Christ.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
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It is funny how long conversations can be had between different belief systems
as if they are the same thing.

It is good though to see how scripture supports the ability to walk as Christ walked
and is not defeatest, while the defeatests continually claim they alone have all the
truth and reality.

A just for instance, if behaviour does not matter, why have long lists for elders etc
and their behaviour patterns. If behaviour does not matter, why exclude believers
from the body because of the sin they do. If behaviour does not matter why say
we should imitate good examples, spend our time dwelling on things of God and not
things of the world, and be a holy pure people.

And once you utter the words, behaviour matters, you have admitted the rules should
be rejected theology is heresy and false. Legalism is also false because it put too much
emphasis on the letter of the law and not the relationship and love that empowers life.

But this is paradigm we are working with. You do choose how far you go down it, but
rest assured upon our behaviour we will be judged. Does it testify to our faith in God,
or to works of evil?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Got to go bed for work but I would read all my post before thinking I am pushing selfish works gain our salvation. Its just a marry go round with some of you without the marry.

As it always is with everyone else that started threads like this.
I was commenting on the article you posted for discussion.

You can walk away offended.

I have never accused you of pushing works salvation...especially selfish works.

It's easier to be offended and ignore what is being said then to actually pray and understand.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,113
40
48
He is saying it's not your efforts but God working in you that can produce true godliness.

He is NOT sayng people shouldn't desire to be more like Christ. Just disagreeing on How and who makes them more like Christ.
The Spirit is your answer
Galatians 5:25
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.

This is what helps us imitate Christ
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Now let us look at this question. Does our behaviour make us like Christ or not like Christ?

In Christ we are purified, made holy, acceptable to God. Walking in the Spirit we walk unto
life and eternity. Walking in rebellion, doing sinful acts, walking according to the passions
of the flesh leads to death. We can choose to do either.

So you can walk in the way of Christ. It does not save you, it is what salvation gives us,
the ability to walk righteously. But if you believe this is impossible, the language does not
apply because our walk is always sinful, so the choice is not even there.

And if the choice is not there, then you can never become like Christ by behaviour, because
that is impossible and a pipe dream.

It means the language of consequences is based also on belief and experience. Unfortunately
there will never be a coming together on this because if you reject Pauls exhortations to walk in
a pure, holy way, either you can or you are not on the stage at all.
When do you learn what is true and holy and right before God?

Before or after you repent?

How can you repent if you aren't shown your sin?

Salvation is more than giving people a choice to walk righteously.

The world under the old covenant was given that choice.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
2,113
40
48
I was commenting on the article you posted for discussion.

You can walk away offended.

I have never accused you of pushing works salvation...especially selfish works.

It's easier to be offended and ignore what is being said then to actually pray and understand.
I wasn't offended I respect what everyone has to say. Its a beautiful things God created us to think and come to differing thoughts. I was just stating I'm tired and its a never ending process.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
It is funny how long conversations can be had between different belief systems
as if they are the same thing.

It is good though to see how scripture supports the ability to walk as Christ walked
and is not defeatest, while the defeatests continually claim they alone have all the
truth and reality.

A just for instance, if behaviour does not matter, why have long lists for elders etc
and their behaviour patterns. If behaviour does not matter, why exclude believers
from the body because of the sin they do. If behaviour does not matter why say
we should imitate good examples, spend our time dwelling on things of God and not
things of the world, and be a holy pure people.

And once you utter the words, behaviour matters, you have admitted the rules should
be rejected theology is heresy and false. Legalism is also false because it put too much
emphasis on the letter of the law and not the relationship and love that empowers life.

But this is paradigm we are working with. You do choose how far you go down it, but
rest assured upon our behaviour we will be judged. Does it testify to our faith in God,
or to works of evil?
This post doesn't make sense.

Behavior is important because sin causes harm to the world and ourselves and goes against God's will for our lives. Good behavior helps those around us.

Theology can be good or bad depending on if it's based upon the Bible and God's truth.

Legalism is bad in all of its forms.

Who would put faith in works of evil?

Who are you labeling defeatest?

Who says behavior doesn't matter?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I wasn't offended I respect what everyone has to say. Its a beautiful things God created us to think and come to differing thoughts. I was just stating I'm tired and its a never ending process.
Well get some rest, I have been avoiding BDF AND only checked this thread because I wanted to see how you were holding up here.

Saw your post in the family forum and you mentioned attending a Methodist church, so I was curious.

Going back to the prayer forum now.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
166
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When do you learn what is true and holy and right before God?

Before or after you repent?

How can you repent if you aren't shown your sin?

Salvation is more than giving people a choice to walk righteously.

The world under the old covenant was given that choice.
In the old covenant they had a choice from a distance, without communion through
the Holy Spirit. They had a pillar of smoke and a pillar of fire to know God was there.
And after all this demonstration of power, authority and might, they still made a calf
of god and worshiped it.

Now our choice is much deeper in our souls, and is eternal in nature, in a way that
was not true in Israel. But the choice still remains once we have come to Christ.

Before we come there is no choice, because how can the lost choose to be saved
or to walk in things that sin stops them from experiencing.

My question is more about, is there truly a single experience of salvation or just
the experience of the beginning of the way. So many times I could talk about
knowing the way, but not that well, and then growing and going deeper, and yet
as I go, it just gets vaster and more interesting and involved.
And when we are washed clean, do we really know what we are washed clean of?

I get the impression grace abounds in faith, so as we grow we become something
different so the issues are dealt with, but almost without our knowledge.
Like if I have a root of bitterness removed, everything in my life changes, but I
did not know the links or the changes, it was as a result of healing and repentance.

For me personally I have a life experience that took me by surprise. I knew the Lord
loved my, died for me, yet when I met my wife to be, deep down, I seriously could not
believe I could be loved. I do not know why I had this doubt or hurt, but it was like
I knew it was not true, but until I found real love in this way, I still had a part of me
hurting and not trusting.

I therefore think we easily talk of things, but crossing some boundaries in our lives
you only become aware of later in life. So I do not want to say descriptions necessarily
change these realities.
 
Mar 2, 2016
8,896
106
0
In the old covenant they had a choice from a distance, without communion through
the Holy Spirit. They had a pillar of smoke and a pillar of fire to know God was there.
And after all this demonstration of power, authority and might, they still made a calf
of god and worshiped it.

Now our choice is much deeper in our souls, and is eternal in nature, in a way that
was not true in Israel. But the choice still remains once we have come to Christ.

Before we come there is no choice, because how can the lost choose to be saved
or to walk in things that sin stops them from experiencing.

My question is more about, is there truly a single experience of salvation or just
the experience of the beginning of the way. So many times I could talk about
knowing the way, but not that well, and then growing and going deeper, and yet
as I go, it just gets vaster and more interesting and involved.
And when we are washed clean, do we really know what we are washed clean of?

I get the impression grace abounds in faith, so as we grow we become something
different so the issues are dealt with, but almost without our knowledge.
Like if I have a root of bitterness removed, everything in my life changes, but I
did not know the links or the changes, it was as a result of healing and repentance.

For me personally I have a life experience that took me by surprise. I knew the Lord
loved my, died for me, yet when I met my wife to be, deep down, I seriously could not
believe I could be loved. I do not know why I had this doubt or hurt, but it was like
I knew it was not true, but until I found real love in this way, I still had a part of me
hurting and not trusting.

I therefore think we easily talk of things, but crossing some boundaries in our lives
you only become aware of later in life. So I do not want to say descriptions necessarily
change these realities.
And still..after all the grace Christ has extended to you you make a golden calf out of your own goodness and worship it. Can't even bring yourself to shut up about how much you love it.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
166
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And still..after all the grace Christ has extended to you you make a golden calf out of your own goodness and worship it. Can't even bring yourself to shut up about how much you love it.
Sirk - imagine this - in the new earth, when God dwells with us where is the goodness in your
life? In God and you are still a sinner or also in you as well.

So now Kingdom of Heaven has come to earth now, and our bodies are the holy temple of
the Holy Spirit, where is the goodness of God dwelling? In us or only in heaven?

Now I am not living a life of debauchery, orgies, pagan worship, or saying I worship anything
else that God the Father through His son, but you are accusing me of being an idolator worthy
of death and the lake of fire by saying God has made me holy and righteous.

I suspect anyone who says the Lord has done something good in their lives will equally be
condemned by you. How can the Lords work be worthy of such ill will?

Or to put it in testimony terms. I was a sinner, I met Christ, He changed my life and now I
am a loving caring human being, into, I was sinner, I met Christ, I am still a sinner and nothing
has changed.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
166
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I wonder how many here have done open airs, street witnessing.
The main aspect is for people to say, what they were like before they met Christ,
how they met Christ, and how their life is changed after the experience.

Now in all good testimonies the idea is the experience was beneficial and made a
difference. Part of this is testifying to it being a far better place to be after the
event than before, and it is down to Gods work in our lives.

Now if you have never done this, I could imagine you might be a bit confused about
the idea of testifying to the work God has done in our lives as if this is boasting.
It is meant always as an encouragement and spur for each other to go further
and believe greater things of our Father.