Have you believed the false grace message?
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I know the thought of Hell is not a good one, and I agree trying to make fear of Hell the ONLY motivating factor isn't the best approach, but please let us not forget that Hell is what God saved us from. God didn't want us to go there to the point that he stepped into time and space to take that full penalty of our transgressions to save us from Hell. It's truth, it's a fact, and it's why Jesus even came in the first place. We SHOULD fear Hell, how could you not? Now while I am not saying I'm going out to use it as my main approach to share the Gospel, you know the "Good News" we are saved from Hell. I am also in no way suggesting that we as Christians should live in fear at all either. I'm not curled up in the corner, shaking, chewing on my fingernails in fear God might change His mind and send me to Hell. I have to say I feel the reality of Hell, the fact that without Christ it's where we are all headed, and the fact that it is kind of "the point" of this whole thing (being SAVED from a Godless eternity, i.e. "hell") leads me to believe that a healthy fear of Hell is not a bad thing.
I KNOW Gods love is infinite, and on a level we humans can't understand. All God's attributes are infinite, this includes His justice and mercy. The cross of Christ is the only way these infinite attributes can logically all come together. I personally see the genius of this design to be FAR beyond what man could think up. Praise the Almighty King, and one true God!!!
I KNOW Gods love is infinite, and on a level we humans can't understand. All God's attributes are infinite, this includes His justice and mercy. The cross of Christ is the only way these infinite attributes can logically all come together. I personally see the genius of this design to be FAR beyond what man could think up. Praise the Almighty King, and one true God!!!
I am not including or excluding anyone. It is up to you where you put yourself.
And we very much know boundaries of faith. You want for whatever reason
to reject certain perspectives and those who hold them.
It seems you do not like street witnessing and testimonies then.
It is wrong to say the Lord has done anything in our lives?
It sounds like you are saying the less the better.
I did hear this from some of your general group, that to be like the world is the goal,
to show even as a normal guy, you can believe in Christ and everything else is the same.
And we very much know boundaries of faith. You want for whatever reason
to reject certain perspectives and those who hold them.
It seems you do not like street witnessing and testimonies then.
It is wrong to say the Lord has done anything in our lives?
It sounds like you are saying the less the better.
I did hear this from some of your general group, that to be like the world is the goal,
to show even as a normal guy, you can believe in Christ and everything else is the same.
I have to ask you, what exactly do you mean by "Let go of those reins and let Christ be who He is in you and through you"? Do you mean we turn off our minds and the Holy Spirit just takes control and "autopilots" us through the trial, then gives us back control when done? I though I saw you say we have free will still before, but I can't remember exactly, but do you believe we still have free will after salvation? After I know the answer to this I will have more questions after that, if you don't mind.
Ariel - A group here have been trying to say that I care about my behaviour to justify
myself before God. They feel everything I share puts focus on behaviour.
So for the sake of argument, one member said if after one year they would be less sinless
than me. So they are saying I behave the same as them, and they sin continuously, and
it does not matter. This suddenly struck me as exactly what we have been pointing out.
If how I behave is not relevant, because I am lying and behaving the same as them or
worse, why include it. That is defeatism, and saying I am commiting sin without specifying
how or why, is just projection.
Now once you accept as taken works of evil are expected, then the theology of salvation is
despite behaviour we are saved, despite rebellion there are no issues etc.
So this was the issue I was trying to address.
Put simply you cannot devalue sin. Either it does not exist, because there are no rules,
or if there are rules, you need to abide by them. If you say there are rules and your fail,
then you have to say how this is mitigated, and if the rules must be followed at some point
in the future how this is achieved. In faith we have lived without an answer to this, other
than we will be changed, but I do not believe this is Gods message. His message is we
are already changed, we have to work hard to enter in and take hold of that for which
Christ died to obtain.
myself before God. They feel everything I share puts focus on behaviour.
So for the sake of argument, one member said if after one year they would be less sinless
than me. So they are saying I behave the same as them, and they sin continuously, and
it does not matter. This suddenly struck me as exactly what we have been pointing out.
If how I behave is not relevant, because I am lying and behaving the same as them or
worse, why include it. That is defeatism, and saying I am commiting sin without specifying
how or why, is just projection.
Now once you accept as taken works of evil are expected, then the theology of salvation is
despite behaviour we are saved, despite rebellion there are no issues etc.
So this was the issue I was trying to address.
Put simply you cannot devalue sin. Either it does not exist, because there are no rules,
or if there are rules, you need to abide by them. If you say there are rules and your fail,
then you have to say how this is mitigated, and if the rules must be followed at some point
in the future how this is achieved. In faith we have lived without an answer to this, other
than we will be changed, but I do not believe this is Gods message. His message is we
are already changed, we have to work hard to enter in and take hold of that for which
Christ died to obtain.
Each group will say they are the representation of what Christ intended.
Now everyone has their own process of elimination and choice, which you have distinctly shown,
so when push comes to shove, you need to decide. The reason I am an evangelical charismatic
because this reflects my position.
But then your group often says we are not a religion, which is just an absurd denial of what
you are, while trying to distinguish yourself from others. It is simpler to just be honest and
declare your own take on things. I have gone in the past to open brethren, anglican, house
church, congregational and baptist churches, and there is little difference.
And to stop divisiveness and this different use of the same words, it helps to just say I follow
this group. It stops confusion and the kind of intended insults without recognising these are
legitimate self contained belief systems. In a broader sense whether you group is called
evangelical or a new phrase will have to be invented to describe your theology I do not know,
but it is obvious you want this divide to be clearly defined, and have great animosity that people
like myself should dare to suggest we worship the same King.
Now everyone has their own process of elimination and choice, which you have distinctly shown,
so when push comes to shove, you need to decide. The reason I am an evangelical charismatic
because this reflects my position.
But then your group often says we are not a religion, which is just an absurd denial of what
you are, while trying to distinguish yourself from others. It is simpler to just be honest and
declare your own take on things. I have gone in the past to open brethren, anglican, house
church, congregational and baptist churches, and there is little difference.
And to stop divisiveness and this different use of the same words, it helps to just say I follow
this group. It stops confusion and the kind of intended insults without recognising these are
legitimate self contained belief systems. In a broader sense whether you group is called
evangelical or a new phrase will have to be invented to describe your theology I do not know,
but it is obvious you want this divide to be clearly defined, and have great animosity that people
like myself should dare to suggest we worship the same King.
I was drawn by this question, seeing it in the sidebar for New Forum Posts... it drew my attention because there is a person who repeatedly refused to address me as an individual, almost always reverting to calling me "you people" and lumping me in with those who support teachers I do not... I would point out this person's offensive behavior, and he would pretend he did not know what I was talking about, give a phony apology, and then do it again. The denial, dishonesty, and blindness of some people is epic.
I don't understand why people think they see that peter says he has made himself holy or has grown his own self in virtue.
I see him always talking about how God has changed him.
And I see him saying that he sees in some a defeatist attitude. I see this same attitude sometimes, especially when one says, walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Or, if we abide, we do not sin.
Especially on that last one, people often answer: no. If we abide in Him we WILL still sin.
They see they still sin, so they refuse that good news.
It seems to not occur to them that the problem is inconstant abiding, not that God has lied!
So they just want to argue what is good news and say it is impossible for God to make a man to keep His laws in spirit and truth.
And then, any discussion on what abiding is and how to abide more and more just becomes one man testifying to the truth of it and another berating him for testifying to the truth of it.
So the argument becomes: Are you saying you never sin?
And the answer is: no, I'm saying that when I abide in Him, I do not sin. It is when I stop abiding that I sin.
They think a man is saying something awful in trying to talk about the struggle to abide more and more. And it is a struggle.
I see him always talking about how God has changed him.
And I see him saying that he sees in some a defeatist attitude. I see this same attitude sometimes, especially when one says, walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Or, if we abide, we do not sin.
Especially on that last one, people often answer: no. If we abide in Him we WILL still sin.
They see they still sin, so they refuse that good news.
It seems to not occur to them that the problem is inconstant abiding, not that God has lied!
So they just want to argue what is good news and say it is impossible for God to make a man to keep His laws in spirit and truth.
And then, any discussion on what abiding is and how to abide more and more just becomes one man testifying to the truth of it and another berating him for testifying to the truth of it.
So the argument becomes: Are you saying you never sin?
And the answer is: no, I'm saying that when I abide in Him, I do not sin. It is when I stop abiding that I sin.
They think a man is saying something awful in trying to talk about the struggle to abide more and more. And it is a struggle.
D
I agree with you. People wiser than you have spoken to you.
You seem stuck on repeat, instead of actually listening. AND you have this overall tendency to think you alone (and some guy you don't agree with, but do, but don't, but enough to link his advertising link) know all and must teach all others what you know.
Which brings me back to my question,
Originally Posted by Depleted
What's the purpose in telling someone they're falling in sin, when the person isn't listening?
BTW, just for the record, I haven't told you my beliefs. So, exactly how do you disagree?
That speaks volumes on the problem that you don't listen.
You seem stuck on repeat, instead of actually listening. AND you have this overall tendency to think you alone (and some guy you don't agree with, but do, but don't, but enough to link his advertising link) know all and must teach all others what you know.
Which brings me back to my question,
What's the purpose in telling someone they're falling in sin, when the person isn't listening?
That speaks volumes on the problem that you don't listen.
gb9 - you belong to a group which holds no one can reach the mark as you call it,
even after one comes to faith.
Maybe you do not identify yourself in a group who hold this common belief.
It is certainly a common thought among many in the church we can never
aspire to true holiness in this life. The methodists did aspire to such things
at various times.
Now there are people who commonly hold this view, which tend to be
calvanists who hold to tulip and total inability. Now this is not an
unreasonable proposition.
even after one comes to faith.
Maybe you do not identify yourself in a group who hold this common belief.
It is certainly a common thought among many in the church we can never
aspire to true holiness in this life. The methodists did aspire to such things
at various times.
Now there are people who commonly hold this view, which tend to be
calvanists who hold to tulip and total inability. Now this is not an
unreasonable proposition.
A
You spend too much time projecting what you think others are trying to do.
God tells us there are rules but also there is grace that supersedes the rules. The rules says we should die and be punished for our sins. God's grace says we are forgiven and Jesus had died for us already,
God is changing who we are NOT just the outside but our inward heart and mind. Our task is to learn to eat meat and discern good from evil. To learn To be mature and help others grow in heavenly wisdom through kindness gentleness and grace.
It's not something that comes naturally to mankind. Grace and love can only be shown to others when we first receive it from God for ourselves. The depth and cleansing of God's love and truth dives deep and reveals wounds that fester long and leak putrid smells.
God tells us there are rules but also there is grace that supersedes the rules. The rules says we should die and be punished for our sins. God's grace says we are forgiven and Jesus had died for us already,
God is changing who we are NOT just the outside but our inward heart and mind. Our task is to learn to eat meat and discern good from evil. To learn To be mature and help others grow in heavenly wisdom through kindness gentleness and grace.
It's not something that comes naturally to mankind. Grace and love can only be shown to others when we first receive it from God for ourselves. The depth and cleansing of God's love and truth dives deep and reveals wounds that fester long and leak putrid smells.