Hebrew Roots Movement

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sparkman

Guest
I found another source concerning Hebrew Roots movement online.

This one is written by an ex Armstrongite, Peter Ditzel.

He says that the HRM was heavily influenced by Armstrongism, Sacred Name Movement and Messianic Jews. The bigger source of their teachings is Armstrongism.

William Dankenbring and Dean Wheelock, who owns the Hebrew Roots trademark, were former Armstrongites.

I found his analysis to be pretty good, given conversations I've had with Hebrew Roots people in the past in the chatroom.

The Hebraic Roots Movement part one
 
S

sparkman

Guest
If anyone wants to dialogue with a former Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law observer who changed from that view, feel free to contact me through email here on christianchat.com. I observed these things from about 1985 to 1995 as a member of Worldwide Church of God. In addition, I have made a lot of remarks regarding this topic in my profile if you care to read it.

I am no longer a Sabbath observer and attend an Evangelical Free Churches of America congregation.

My remarks below are not concerning Sabbathkeepers who observe Saturday as a matter of individual preference. The remarks are concerning those who claim that Sabbathkeeping is a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation.

Most Sabbathkeepers (not all) believe that non-observers are sinning by non-observance, whether knowingly or unknowingly. They probably won’t tell you that up front, though. Their belief in this regard largely comes from their misunderstanding of I John 3:4.

Sabbathkeepers generally fail to understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They will attempt to lead you down the path of a certain group of “proof texts” that lead you to think that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement for Christians, and that you are in sin for non-compliance. Their reasoning sounds pretty good on a surface level to those who are unacquainted with the context of their proof-texts, but when studied at a deeper level they aren’t credible.

Quite often, their indoctrination includes a faulty view of church history which portrays Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church as the villains in a conspiracy theory to do away with “God’s law”, even though Sunday meetings within the church occurred much earlier and for different reasons than they claim.

It is plain what the focus of Christianity is; the focus is embedded in the name itself. It is about the unique God-man who came to die a substitutionary death on the behalf of the redeemed, so that those who repent and place their faith in Him can be forgiven and restored to a good relationship with God. In recognition of the monumental event of the crucifixion and the resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week, it is appropriate for Christians to assemble on this day to celebrate and worship.

The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ and our life of faith in Him and his atonement as our spiritual rest (Matt 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-10, Colossians 2:16-17). The Sabbath was a type relating to this reality. It was a mere shadow. We have the Reality now, in our relationship with Jesus Christ. This relationship is a continuing rest; not just a certain day. We have peace now through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).

It's a waste of time to argue with Sabbathkeepers concerning this issue, though. They are already indoctrinated into a worldview which is impossible to penetrate, except through the power of the Holy Spirit. They are convinced that they are the ones who know "the Truth" (their worldview) and that everyone else is deceived. I was exactly the same way, but I was the deceived one.

If you are troubled by this issue, I suggest reading the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to study the issue of Sabbathkeeping and the Old and New Covenants before wasting years with their teachings…years that could be spent proclaiming Jesus Christ and him crucified. That’s the true gospel.

In addition to their lack of focus on Jesus Christ, the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observance is usually only the tip of the iceberg as far as doctrinal problems. As an example, the cultic group I was involved with, Armstrongism, denied the Trinity, claimed they were going to be fully God in the resurrection, and denied the salvation of all other believers outside of their organization. They considered Sabbath-breaking to be the Mark of the Beast. Other organizations deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, the writings of the apostle Paul, and follow extra-biblical writings such as their prophet or prophetess or the writings of Judaism such as the Talmud.

Sabbathkeepers are largely taught by people who are full of intellectual pride and vanity, and proclaim their superior knowledge to the world. These teachers view everything within Christianity with evil suspicions, and seek to discredit it in any way they can to build themselves and their organizations up. As a result, they usually don’t hold just one aberrant theology but many. They are contentious, argumentative people who criticize other organizations on small details, while teaching massive errors themselves. Scripture has a lot to say about such individuals, and it is not good.

There are members of some of these organizations on this forum, including Armstrongites such as Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, and Living Church of God. In addition, some Hebrew Roots Movement adherents and Messianic Jew groups have doctrinal issues like I mentioned. Seventh Day Adventists claim to be the “remnant church” which in essence is a claim that they are the true church, and that Sunday observance will be the Mark of the Beast in the end times.
 
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2Tim3v16_17

Guest
Hi,
not believing in a Sabbath Rest (An actual day), how do you deal with this verse.
Thanks

Heb 4:8-10
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.



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not beleving in keeping the commandments out of love as as a result/fruit of your salvation. How do you deal with the following.

1Jn 2:1-7
(1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
(6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
(7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

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Joh 14:15
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

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Joh 14:20-26
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(22) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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2Jn 1:3-11
(3) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
(4) I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
(5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
(6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
(7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
(8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
(9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

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What is sin (every time you read sin in the below verses, replace it with, breaking the law)

1Jn 3:4-9
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



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Then our rewards one day is all about our works.

Rev 22:12-14
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

how I see it the law is now on our hearts, because we keep it not for salvation but out of love.
final nail in the coffin for me is the below.

Mat 5:18-19
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


he is not saying, you will not enter into the kingdom, but you will be least, or you can do and teach men to keep the law and prophets and be called GREAT, what do you choose.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Hi,
not believing in a Sabbath Rest (An actual day), how do you deal with this verse.
Thanks

Heb 4:8-10
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:9 says:

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Hebrews 4:9 (KJV)

Consequently a sabbath rest remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9 (LEB)

A literal translation of this verse says:

Consequently, a keeping of a sabbath is left to GOD's people. Hebrews 4:9

The Greek word translated rest and sabbath rest above is σαββατισμός (sabbatismos, G4520), which is a noun meaning a keeping of a sabbath. It can refer to a kept weekly sabbath (Exodus 20:8), a kept 7-year land sabbath (Leviticus 25:2), or a kept festival (appointed time) sabbath (Leviticus 23:32). Scriptural context determines the type of sabbath.

It is an unusual word that is used only one time in the NT (Hebrews 4:9), not at all in the Greek Septuagint (LXX), and very rarely in other ancient writings. The verb form of this word is σαββατίζω (sabbatizo), which means to keep a sabbath. It is not used in the New Testament, but is used in the LXX to refer to keeping all three types of sabbaths listed above (weekly, 7-year land, appointed time).

The context of chapters 3 and 4 in Hebrews is not a weekly sabbath, nor a 7-year land sabbath, but the sabbath rest of the land promised to Israel, which many under Moses were not able to enter into because of unbelief. In fact, the weekly sabbath is not even mentioned in Hebrews 4.

The most interesting usage of σαββατίζω (sabbatizo, to keep a sabbath) in the LXX is in Leviticus 23:32 where Israel is commanded yearly to keep the sabbath of the day of atonement. This appointed time was a sabbath of sabbaths (essentially a most holy sabbath), and was the holiest day of the year in which Israel's sins were removed for a year. The appointed time of Tabernacles began on the 15th day of the month, 5 days after the day of atonement, and was a time set apart for Israel to rest from their yearly labors. The first day of this festival was a sabbath, and the day following this festival was a sabbath; so it was bracketed by special sabbaths that were distinct from any weekly sabbaths that occurred during that time.

Genesis 8:4 states that Noah’s ark rested on the 17th day of the 7th month. This day falls within the 7-day festival of Tabernacles, which is the 7th festival (or appointed time) of YHWH. The number 7 always signifies rest from labor.

Additionally, the children of Israel were originally supposed to enter into rest in the promised land during the time of first ripe grapes. That harvest occurs in the fall of the year, as do the appointed times of the day of atonement and Tabernacles.

And Moses sent them to spy out the land of Canaan ... Now the time was the time of the first ripe grapes. Numbers 13:17-20

In other words, GOD's original plan for their entering into rest corresponded with these appointed times in the fall.

However, they did not enter in under Moses because of unbelief, and subsequently wandered in the desert for 40 years. Afterwards they entered the promised land under Joshua just before Passover in the first month of the year. But they did not enter into the true rest that GOD has planned for his people from the foundation of the world, as indicated in Hebrews 4:8:

For if Joshua had caused them to rest, he would not have spoken about another day after these things. Hebrews 4:8

This change of entering the promised land (which symbolizes rest) from the appointed times in the 7th month to the appointed time of Passover in the first month signifies GOD's postponement of his people's true rest until Christ, our Passover, could accomplish and establish the more excellent way that would allow GOD's people to forever enter into their final rest in the (as of yet) unfulfilled appointed times of YHWH.

So, IMO, the future fulfillments of these appointed times (what he calls another day) are what the writer of Hebrews is referring to in Hebrew 4:8-9. The example of disobedient Israelites not entering into rest in the promised land through unbelief warns us to always strive through faith to enter into Christ's rest, that culminates in the keeping of the sabbath of the fulfilled day of atonement and subsequent festival of Tabernacles, when those who do believe fully enter into GOD's promised eternal rest.

So let us strive daily to enter into this keeping of a sabbath that is left for GOD's people when Christ returns to give them rest.

Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matthew 11:28-29
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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However, they did not enter in under Moses because of unbelief,
and subsequently wandered in the desert for 40 years.
in disobedience it was, and A warning-about entering His rest

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

-how did they came short?

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us,
even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them,
because it was not united by (faith) with them that heard.

-they did not have faith.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;even as
he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise,
And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

-notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.

Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto,
and they to whom the good tidings were before preached

failed to enter in because of disobedience,

-God said they will not enter His rest, but they failed because of [disobedience].
about the 7th day Sabbath command.

Heb 4:7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David
so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken
afterward of another day.

-David said "today" long after Joshua took them into the promised land
so thus proving that there is a rest still to be entered.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works,
as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest,

that no man fall after the same example of [disobedience].

-A rest remains, but notice the issue is do not disobey.

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Heb 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid
round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna,
and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

-the pot of manna was put in the most Holy

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which Jehovah thy God hath led thee
these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know
what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna,
which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know

that man doth not live by bread only, but by everything that proceedeth
out of the mouth of Jehovah doth man live.

-God tested them for 40 years to humble them to see what was in their hearts.
that they should live by every word (10 commandments spoken by Gods own mouth)
not by bread alone.

-what did the bread teach?

Exo 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them,
whether they will walk in my law, or not.

Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass on the sixth day, that they shall prepare that which
they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

-and how long did God prove them with the manna?

Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which Jehovah hath commanded, Let
an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread
wherewith I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna therein,
and lay it up before Jehovah, to be kept throughout your generations.

As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.
And the children of Israel did eat the manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited;
they did eat the manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

-40 years. this is the issue being spoken of in Hebrews:

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they
that came out of Egypt by Moses?

Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years?
was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest,
but to them that [were disobedient? ]

Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:4-10 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works [Gen. 2:2-3].

And in this [place again],

If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth
that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in
because of unbelief [sound familiar?]: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,
To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest [see below] to the people of God. For he that is entered
into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

rest (G4520) sabbatismos
1. a keeping sabbath
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by
the true worshippers of God and true Christians
from a derivative of G4521

(G4521) sabbaton
1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites
were required to abstain from all work
1a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week
of Hebrew origin H7676

(H7676) shabba^th
1. Sabbath
1a. sabbath
1b. day of atonement
1c. sabbath year
1d. week
1e. produce (in sabbath year)
intensive from H7673

(7673) sha^bath
1. to cease, desist, rest
1a. (Qal)
1a-1. to cease
1a-2. to rest, desist (from labour)
1b. (Niphal) to cease
1c. (Hiphil)
1c-1. to cause to cease, put an end to
1c-2. to exterminate, destroy
1c-3. to cause to desist from
1c-4. to remove
1c-5. to cause to fail
2. (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
a primitive root


Genesis 2:2-3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God
blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from
all his work which God created and made."

The LORD created the seventh day (Sabbath), blessed and sanctified it
"because that in it he had rested from all his work".

-once God has blessed something, can it be undone?

Numbers 23:19-20 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man,
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall
he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless:

and he hath blessed; and [I cannot reverse it]."

-Here Balaam tells Balak that the LORD gave him a commandment to bless Israel.
He told Balak that what the LORD has blessed, he cannot reverse it.
Do we think we can reverse the blessing the LORD has placed on something?

1 Chronicles 17:26-27 "And now, LORD, thou art God, and hast promised this goodness
unto thy servant: Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may
be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O LORD, and it shall be blessed for ever."
 
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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
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the oracles of God

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way:chiefly, because that unto them

were committed [the oracles of God]. Romans 3:2

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel
which spake to him in [the mount Sina], and with our fathers:

who received the lively oracles [ to give unto us ] Acts 7:38


For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of

[the oracles of God]; and are become such as have
need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12

If any man speak, let him speak as [the oracles of God];
if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise,
And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

-notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.
The seventh day of creation. The weekly sabbath is not mentioned at all in Hebrews 4.
 
2

2Tim3v16_17

Guest
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Certain things I take from Heb 4 8-10 is.
1. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the author is saying, it is not the case, but IF)
2.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the word Jesus, is wrongly translated here, should be Joshua, it is only the KJV that has it wrong), so they did not get rest via Moses or Joshua, therefore a rest remain.
3.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (this links it for me to the 7 day Sabbath, seeing that the commandment says we should not work but rest, and God rested from His works


As Jesus said, the Sabbath is there for us to rest and have a day off from work.
We are still getting tired and need a day of rest, even if we believe in Jesus.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matthew 11:28-29"

The verse you are quoting, I agree with, but as it states "..for your soul", I don't see this relating to the Sabbath, which is related to our and God's works.

We can have peace, joy and rest in our souls regardless of what life throws to us because we know He has overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not all was fulfilled in Jesus, The Sabbath being one of them and the last three of the seven feasts also not.

 
2

2Tim3v16_17

Guest
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Certain things I take from Heb 4 8-10 is.
1. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the author is saying, it is not the case, but IF)
2.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the word Jesus, is wrongly translated here, should be Joshua, it is only the KJV that has it wrong), so they did not get rest via Moses or Joshua, therefore a rest remain.
3.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (this links it for me to the 7 day Sabbath, seeing that the commandment says we should not work but rest, and God rested from His works


As Jesus said, the Sabbath is there for us to rest and have a day off from work.
We are still getting tired and need a day of rest, even if we believe in Jesus.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.Matthew 11:28-29"

The verse you are quoting, I agree with, but as it states "..for your soul", I don't see this relating to the Sabbath, which is related to our and God's works.

We can have peace, joy and rest in our souls regardless of what life throws to us because we know He has overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not all was fulfilled in Jesus, The Sabbath being one of them and the last three of the seven feasts also not.
 
J

JustAnotherUser

Guest
Evangelicals believe that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Laws and that the new covenant is through believing in the crucifixion of Jesus that saves people from sin. Contrary towards that, the Hebrew Roots (Messianic as well as some other sections) believe that you need to keep the Old Testament Laws while believing in Jesus (also known as Yeshua) because of Matthew 5:17 as the common source. This also dates back to their claims of early Christianity, being some time between 70 - 100 years after Christ's death and before the split between Judaic Laws/Messianic and Catholicism being the first founded and major congregation of the Christian faith.

These are not my claims. I'm just stating what I acknowledge about them.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
These questions are very easy.

In regards to Hebrews 4:8-10, this is talking about the spiritual rest which comes through placing your faith in Jesus Christ. Read the entire chapter.

In regards to the verses you quoted about Christians keeping the commandments of God, yes they do..the commandments that apply to THEM, not the ancient nation of Israel. The Bible is full of commandments that apply to THEM. These commandments are moral in nature, not ceremonial and ritualistic. Colossians 2:16-17 clearly states that the Sabbath and festivals are not applicable to New Testament believers, as they were shadows or types of Jesus Christ, who is the reality. They are grouped with New Moons and food and drink offerings, which are not applicable. Compare these verses with Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11 for further confirmation on this.

In addition, there are several verses which prove that the clean/unclean meat laws don't apply, including Mark 7 and Romans 14.

Regarding I John 3:4, this verse does not define sin. It is saying that sin, or hamartia, is lawlessness, or anomia. You Sabbathkeepers always quote this from the KJV in order to attempt to make your point. This verse is identifying the behavior (sin or hamartia) with the motivation (lawlessness or anomia). Those who commit sin are acting out of lawlessness or rebellion, in other words. They are acting out of the spirit of the antichrist, which is a constant theme throughout the book.

See the Pillar commentary book on the epistles of John for further information.

If you still want to claim it is defining sin, then I would simply say that it is the transgression of God's moral law, which is more expansive than the Torah or the Ten Commandments, which is what I'm guessing you are claiming that the "law" is.

I would also ask you what your definition of the "law" is..whether you claim it is the entire Torah, or just the Ten Commandments. If you say the entire Torah, I would ask you if you put your wives and daughters outside of the home during their menstruation as the law requires, or if you wear tassels on your garments. If you claim it's the Ten Commandments, then I would ask you why you claim the clean/unclean meat laws apply, assuming you do. In other words, no matter how you define "the law", I would show you your inconsistency.

However, I John 3:4 does not define sin; it is describing the behavior and the motivation behind the behavior..which is the spirit of antichrist, or rebellion, which is anomia. I have checked this view with more than one Greek scholar and they are in agreement that this view makes sense.

With regards to Matthew 5:18-19, Christ didn't change any commandments, UNTIL the cross. He fulfilled the Old Covenant and Christians are no longer under it.

If you claim he changed NOTHING, then why aren't you sacrificing animals? Do you claim that physical circumcision still applies? Do you make your wives and daughters live outside of the home during their menstruation? Do you throw away any furniture that a menstruous woman may have sat upon?

Armstrongites and many Hebrew Roots Movement people simply establish a phoney "law" that they call "God's Law" and childishly insist that it applies to everyone. They themselves aren't consistent with their own theologies. For instance, Armstrongites don't construct Sukkots to live in during the Feast of Tabernacles, as is required by Leviticus 23. They must construct them AND inhabit them during the seven or eight days. And, they can't change the way Sukkot is observed or they are changing God's law, which is what they accuse other Christians of doing.

This is part of why I would never associate with Armstrongites or any other "lawkeeper" group again ..their inconsistencies are apparent, and their aura of superior knowledge is nothing but a sham. They are inconsistent and lack knowledge and that is why they are caught up in their little cultic activities. It's a childish attempt to segregate themselves and proclaim themselves to be superior to Christians.



Hi,
not believing in a Sabbath Rest (An actual day), how do you deal with this verse.
Thanks

Heb 4:8-10
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.



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not beleving in keeping the commandments out of love as as a result/fruit of your salvation. How do you deal with the following.

1Jn 2:1-7
(1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
(6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
(7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

--------

Joh 14:15
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

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Joh 14:20-26
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(22) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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2Jn 1:3-11
(3) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
(4) I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
(5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
(6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
(7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
(8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
(9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

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What is sin (every time you read sin in the below verses, replace it with, breaking the law)

1Jn 3:4-9
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



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Then our rewards one day is all about our works.

Rev 22:12-14
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

how I see it the law is now on our hearts, because we keep it not for salvation but out of love.
final nail in the coffin for me is the below.

Mat 5:18-19
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


he is not saying, you will not enter into the kingdom, but you will be least, or you can do and teach men to keep the law and prophets and be called GREAT, what do you choose.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Evangelicals believe that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Laws and that the new covenant is through believing in the crucifixion of Jesus that saves people from sin. Contrary towards that, the Hebrew Roots (Messianic as well as some other sections) believe that you need to keep the Old Testament Laws while believing in Jesus (also known as Yeshua) because of Matthew 5:17 as the common source. This also dates back to their claims of early Christianity, being some time between 70 - 100 years after Christ's death and before the split between Judaic Laws/Messianic and Catholicism being the first founded and major congregation of the Christian faith.

These are not my claims. I'm just stating what I acknowledge about them.
Their claims are bogus and based on inconsistent reasoning. I used to hold their views as an Armstrongite. The truth is that Christians were going to Synagogue on Saturday to hear Scriptures read, and then meeting on their own on the first day of the week and discussing these Scriptures from a Christian standpoint, as well as taking communion together. The reason related to limited access to the Scriptures, and the synagogue provided access.

Christians left Jerusalem prior to the destruction of the Temple in AD70, based on Christ's command recorded in Matthew 24. This deteriorated relationships between them and the Jews, because the Jews viewed them as traitors. In AD90, a benediction was required as recitation in the synagogues which in effect would have been denying Christ and Christianity, so Christians were basically not allowed in the synagogues anymore. In addition, Jews began to endorse a false Messiah about AD130, so that further alienated Jews from Christians. By this time, few Christians were meeting on Saturday, and had migrated fully to meeting on Sunday only.

Even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admits that this is true, despite his denomination's view on this topic. He did a very detailed study on this.

The Sabbathkeeper view of history is distorted and erroneous. I was 22 years old when I fell for their conspiracy theory mentality, so I chalk that one up to age. Most of them hold the equivalent of a conspiracy theory when it comes to church history in this regard.

Hebrew Roots people are also in denial about the fact that the Old Covenant is done away with. Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Hebrews 8 and 9, and Galatians 3 and 4 are clear about this. Galatians 3 is especially firm on this point.

The purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead the Jews to Christ, by presenting elements of his work in types or shadows. It was almost like a kindergarten level of Christianity in a way. Galatians 3 calls its role something like a schoolmaster. Unfortunately, these guys who claim the Old Covenant still applies (or their version of it) are like children who claim that wearing diapers and pacifiers are preferable to entering the spiritual adult world. The Gentiles bypassed the diapers and pacifiers stage and went straight into the New Covenant.

Want to see a Sabbathkeeper cry? Take away his pacifier :)
 
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sparkman

Guest
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Certain things I take from Heb 4 8-10 is.
1. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the author is saying, it is not the case, but IF)
2.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the word Jesus, is wrongly translated here, should be Joshua, it is only the KJV that has it wrong), so they did not get rest via Moses or Joshua, therefore a rest remain.
3.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (this links it for me to the 7 day Sabbath, seeing that the commandment says we should not work but rest, and God rested from His works


As Jesus said, the Sabbath is there for us to rest and have a day off from work.
We are still getting tired and need a day of rest, even if we believe in Jesus.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.Matthew 11:28-29"

The verse you are quoting, I agree with, but as it states "..for your soul", I don't see this relating to the Sabbath, which is related to our and God's works.

We can have peace, joy and rest in our souls regardless of what life throws to us because we know He has overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not all was fulfilled in Jesus, The Sabbath being one of them and the last three of the seven feasts also not.
I disagree with your assertion that the festival days have not been completed.

Day of Atonement has been fulfilled. The atonement has already been made. If you claim that the second goat was Satan, and that it refers to the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit, you are claiming Satan was a our sin-bearer, which is false. That is a false Seventh Day Adventist/Armstrongite teaching. It refers to another aspect of Christ's atonement. The first aspect is the blood sacrifice, and the second aspect is bearing our sins and carrying them away.

Feast of Tabernacles was fulfilled in the Incarnation. I find NO reason whatsoever to claim this applies to the Millennium. I challenge you to produce Scriptures which prove this. You can't produce any that say this. Christ lived amongst us in the tabernacle of flesh.

Feast of Trumpets relates to Christ's resurrection, I believe. It is also connected with the believers' resurrection indirectly because the redeemed are raised with Him.

Anyways, I would challenge two points..one is that the festivals were meant to be linear in nature, and the second point would be that they are not already fulfilled in some way.

Herbert Armstrong is the one who made the assertion that these days are to be viewed linear and the latter ones have not already been fulfilled. His heresies are well known and I give him zero credibility.

By the way, one reason why I contest this whole future fulfillment thing relates to John 7:37-39. These verses refer to the fulfillment of the "last great day" which is the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles. It says they were fulfilled when he was glorified, when the believers received the Holy Spirit:

John 7:37-39 [SUP]37 [/SUP]Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “[SUP][a][/SUP]If anyone is thirsty, [SUP][b][/SUP]let him come to Me and drink. [SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From [SUP][c][/SUP]his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” [SUP]39 [/SUP]But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This "last great day" is related to the Feast of Tabernacles, see John 7:2. It is the last day of the feast.

The fulfillment of this event happened at Pentecost, according to the very same verse.

If you are an Armstrongite, you may claim that it applies to the Second Resurrection, but you would be in error and denying what these verses clearly state. The meaning was fulfilled on Pentecost when the Spirit was received. Appropriately, this occurred AFTER he ascended back to heaven, and was no longer with his believers, and had ceased to dwell with them, which is what Feast of Tabernacles portrayed..his incarnation and dwelling with mankind. Perhaps that is why the eighth day was appropriate for this meaning..the Spirit wasn't sent until after He ascended.

I don't know if you are Armstrongite or Hebrew Roots, but either way you've probably swallowed Herbert Armstrong's view of the festivals, which are in error. Hebrew Roots Movement is influenced strongly by Armstrongites. William Dankenbring and Dean Wheelock are both ex Armstrongites. I can see Herbert Armstrong's influence on the whole system.

Herbert Armstrong was a rank heretic who claimed that believers were going to become fully God in the resurrection, and denied the Christianity of everyone outside of his organization. Armstrongites today do the same thing. They claim to be the "true faith" and declare the rest of Christianity to be a "counterfeit Christianity" teaching a "false gospel" and whose ministers are "ministers of Satan".

I fell for his nonsense for over a decade as a young believer. He was a contentious ignoramus and I would suggest making sure you aren't following his teachings.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Certain things I take from Heb 4 8-10 is.
1. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the author is saying, it is not the case, but IF)
2.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the word Jesus, is wrongly translated here, should be Joshua, it is only the KJV that has it wrong), so they did not get rest via Moses or Joshua, therefore a rest remain.
3.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (this links it for me to the 7 day Sabbath, seeing that the commandment says we should not work but rest, and God rested from His works


As Jesus said, the Sabbath is there for us to rest and have a day off from work.
We are still getting tired and need a day of rest, even if we believe in Jesus.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.Matthew 11:28-29"

The verse you are quoting, I agree with, but as it states "..for your soul", I don't see this relating to the Sabbath, which is related to our and God's works.

We can have peace, joy and rest in our souls regardless of what life throws to us because we know He has overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not all was fulfilled in Jesus, The Sabbath being one of them and the last three of the seven feasts also not.
I have responded to the Sabbathkeeper view on Hebrews 4 in this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html

The essence is that Hebrews 4:9 cannot be used to prove that the Sabbath is still required for Christians, as it is talking about the "better Sabbath" that we have in Jesus Christ and our relationship of faith with Him.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html

Regarding Matthew 5:19, which was the topic of another post, I created this thread in relationship to that:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115415-matthew-5-17-19-sabbathkeeping-claims.html
 
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sparkman

Guest
By the way, if you're confident of your position regarding Sabbath and festivals, perhaps you'd like to have a try at some of my difficult questions for Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat observers:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...questions-sabbath-festival-torah-keepers.html

I have some new ones to add to the list, so I might re-create it at some point.

Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Certain things I take from Heb 4 8-10 is.
1. (8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the author is saying, it is not the case, but IF)
2.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, (the word Jesus, is wrongly translated here, should be Joshua, it is only the KJV that has it wrong), so they did not get rest via Moses or Joshua, therefore a rest remain.
3.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (this links it for me to the 7 day Sabbath, seeing that the commandment says we should not work but rest, and God rested from His works


As Jesus said, the Sabbath is there for us to rest and have a day off from work.
We are still getting tired and need a day of rest, even if we believe in Jesus.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

"Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matthew 11:28-29"

The verse you are quoting, I agree with, but as it states "..for your soul", I don't see this relating to the Sabbath, which is related to our and God's works.

We can have peace, joy and rest in our souls regardless of what life throws to us because we know He has overcome the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not all was fulfilled in Jesus, The Sabbath being one of them and the last three of the seven feasts also not.

 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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I disagree with your assertion that the festival days have not been completed.

Day of Atonement has been fulfilled. The atonement has already been made. If you claim that the second goat was Satan, and that it refers to the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit, you are claiming Satan was a our sin-bearer, which is false. That is a false Seventh Day Adventist/Armstrongite teaching. It refers to another aspect of Christ's atonement. The first aspect is the blood sacrifice, and the second aspect is bearing our sins and carrying them away.
The day of atonement had 3 aspects. The sin offering for the high priest, the sin offering for Israel, and the banishment of sin from the congregation.

The blood of the sin offering for the high priest was first presented in the holy of holies.

Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’” John 20:17

The high priest then atoned for the sins of Israel.

And [after he] had said these [things], [while] they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight. Acts 1:9.

There's no question that the atonement for GOD's people is still taking place,

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Therefore also he is able to save completely those who draw near to God through him, [because he] always lives in order to intercede on their behalf. Hebrews 7:25

This intercession will continue until the last person is saved. Then the mystery of GOD will be complete, and the high priest will emerge from the holy place to banish sin from the congregation.

[Christ] whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all [things], about which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from earliest times. Acts 3:21

So the day of atonement is being fulfilled.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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The day of atonement had 3 aspects. .
you are confusing the wave shelf offering, with the day of atonement.


the wave shelf offering is when Christ rose and was excepted by God in heaven,


The day of atonement ,man will be before God, and be held accountable for there actions


God accepts the lambs blood

Leviticus 23 explains all of God’s festivals proclaimed holy convocations,
Beginning verse 9, we find instructions for the wave-sheaf offering.

The Israelites were not allowed to harvest any of the early grain crop until this day.

Then, on the day following the weekly Sabbath, in a solemn ceremony of
the Levitical priesthood,The sheaf was then brought to the priest.

The priest solemnly waved it before the Eternal to be accepted for them.
This event always occurred during the Days of Unleavened Bread.

This pictures the resurrected Christ ascending to heaven to be accepted by
His Father as the very first human to be actually born of God

-the firstfruit of the first harvest of souls!

By comparing John 20:17 with Matthew 28:9, you will see that Christ presented
Himself before the Father on the morning after His resurrection the previous evening
(1 Corinthians 15:20, 23; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18).

This fulfillment of the wavesheaf offering actually occurred on Sunday,
the morrow after the Sabbath during the Days of Unleavened Bread.
 
W

WarriorForChrist

Guest
So I researched the Hebrew Roots Movement a bit last night. The site I went to was 119 Ministries. The first video they wanted me to watch was on Acts 10. Their explanation of the vision Peter had was that it wasn't actually food the vision was about but the Gentiles. He had three visions and three messengers were sent to him. But what they didn't explain was when Peter went to Cornelius he ate with Cornelius. It doesn't specifically say what they ate but I can only assume it was Roman food?

When Peter returned to tell his story he explained that he ate with the Gentiles and the other Apostles were pretty upset about this. Then Peter told them the vision he had from God. Why would the disciples be upset if Peter ate according to Jewish Law? So I can conclude that Peter did eat unclean food and God, in the vision, told him it was ok to do so.

I watched some more but didn't feel any of the arguments they made actually made any sense according to scripture.