Hebrew Roots Movement

Word_Swordsman · Jun 7, 2015

JGIG said:

Rather than engage in rhetoric, let me just say much of the book of Hebrews, in the NT, refers to the OT. A person can approach the cross of Jesus Christ, but not understand what's going on, seeing the Lord suffering, then siding with the enemies of Christ because of his shame.

The one who realizes what Jesus' shame is about can choose to share in that shame and be saved.
That's why it's imperative to preach the full gospel of Christ, including the cross, the blood, and the death and resurrection of Christ, for people to believe and come to Christ. Explaining why that's important to God helps hearers believe.

So it is that while none are required to satisfy the Mosaic Law to be saved, all who come to Jesus must believe God's way. The Bible teaches Jesus' way by pointing to the Old Testament forward to the cross and resurrection, and preaches to gentiles who don't know the OT from today back to the cross of Christ and as far back into the OT as necessary for understanding.

One's salvation knowledge is magnified by repeating the same basis of Jesus and his apostles who frequently quoted Old Testament scriptures to present the gospel of Christ accurately. If you were to attempt to remove all OT references from the NT, confusion would reign. Both Jews and Gentiles need some explanations to have faith in, such as what is sin, why do I need a savior, why Jesus, etc. By the Spirit a person can indeed come to Christ, when the Father calls a person to do that, without understanding of why called. But that's why the Lord set among us preachers and teachers to grow in the faith, understanding added to our faith.

Word_Swordsman · Jun 7, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

I'll add the book of Hebrews is just one of the several NT books that at least mention the OT. The OT scriptures, whenever mentioned, are very important for understanding the gospel of Christ, which was brought to the Jews by Jesus, not to Gentiles. Seven years after Jesus' resurrection the gospel was opened up to Gentiles too, who couldn't be assumed to know why Jesus might be helpful to them.

Word_Swordsman · Jun 7, 2015

JGIG said:

I don't recommend abandoning the lessons of the OT because the HRM folks abuse us with the old law.

Peter devoted this whole chapter to OT references. Please attempt to count up the episodes he referred to from the OT.

2 Peter 2:1-22 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[SUP]8 [/SUP] (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Examples for us.

Elin · Jun 7, 2015

JesusIsAll said:

Well. . .shiver me timbers. . .that oughta' pass muster. . .

Elin · Jun 7, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Yes, and I was addressing the notions that
it is the (utilitarian) power of the OT that got it included in the Bible, rather than simply it being the word of God, and that
if the gospel shadows are seen as powerful, how much more powerful then should the gospel realities themselves be seen.

I was reframing the Bible's locus of power according to its own point of view, rather than some other point of view.

We see a lot of reframing of the new covenant word of God's view to make it an old covenant view,
denying that the former words spoken by the prophets of old is to be been in the light of the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) of God's full and complete revelation through
the NT writers.

Elin · Jun 7, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Let's reframe that in terms of the NT gospel.

The OT can't fix that. . .only faith can fix that.

Let's reframe that in terms of the NT gospel.

I am not saved by sharing in Jesus' shame.

I am saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) by the forgiveness of my sin (Lk 1:77) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

Let's reframe that in terms of the NT gospel.

Hearers believe only because the Holy Spirit gives them ears than can hear, not because of why it is important to God.

Let's frame that in terms of the new covenant word of God.

God and Jesus' way are: repent and believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved from the penalty of your sin (Mk 1:15; Jn 3:18).

Understanding the OT is not necessary to be saved by grace through faith.

Straw man.

It's not about confusion, it's about truth.
Such rewriting would make it the word of man rather than the word of God.

That is new covenant knowledge.

Preaching the word of God in new covenant terms gives correct understanding of the old covenant word of God.

Elin · Jun 7, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Let's reframe that in terms of the gospel.

You will perish apart from Jesus Christ.

No one disputes that the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed.

Elin · Jun 7, 2015

Word_Swordsman said:

Straw man. . .who does?

I recommend putting the new wine in the new skins, rather than the old skins.

crossnote · Jun 8, 2015

JesusIsAll said:

Leapin lizzurds 'o mercy, Elin! Shoot! Where yoo been? Ah spots 'em down two block aways, Esso sign left katteecorner et da light. Liken ta Elduh Floyd big 'ol butt et da fillin stayshun. Looks 'roun left. Den Floyd looks 'roun right. He et setterin few mo timez. (Dat mean Floyd 'ol fat head left den right, sayed few mo timez by Latinese.) Floyd be's seein nobody lookin, tares page out Awake magzeen, puts hiz big 'ol wad chewin gum 'n rest whole Awake in trash can, wich is can rain blow on wit rust hole down 'roun middle, one next ta premium wit lead pump, iffin yoo wunders wich can. Mercy, next thing he sayin he 144,000 et da Burger King, new Awake in big 'ol fat hand! He 'bout sinless as be Generil Sherman, havin nite on town 'roun Atlanta, mercy up in smokes!

Seeu ben reedn Unkl Reemuz

Elin · Jun 8, 2015

crossnote said:

JesusIsAll said:

Leapin lizzurds 'o mercy, Elin! Shoot! Where yoo been? Ah spots 'em down two block aways, Esso sign left katteecorner et da light. Liken ta Elduh Floyd big 'ol butt et da fillin stayshun. Looks 'roun left. Den Floyd looks 'roun right. He et setterin few mo timez. (Dat mean Floyd 'ol fat head left den right, sayed few mo timez by Latinese.) Floyd be's seein nobody lookin, tares page out Awake magzeen, puts hiz big 'ol wad chewin gum 'n rest whole Awake in trash can, wich is can rain blow on wit rust hole down 'roun middle, one next ta premium wit lead pump, iffin yoo wunders wich can. Mercy, next thing he sayin he 144,000 et da Burger King, new Awake in big 'ol fat hand! He 'bout sinless as be Generil Sherman, havin nite on town 'roun Atlanta, mercy up in smokes!

Seeu ben reedn Unkl Reemuz

His reference points just blow me away. . .

MarcR · Jun 10, 2015

MarcR said:

The only correction I would like to offer; is that while many Jewish believers, myself included, continue to observe the appointed times of Lev 23 as figures and illustrations of various aspects of Jesus ministry on earth; few if any of us keep the dietary laws or are Torah observant; and any Jewish believer who, understands Eph 2:8-10, will not try to put believers under Law.

The HRM is NOT A JEWISH THING; in fact they are almost entirely Gentiles masquerading as Jews; and most of them hold to some form of replacement theology.

The only two truly Jewish Messianic groups that I am aware of are:

Friends of Israel, an outgrowth of American Board of Mission to the Jews.

Chosen People, a ministry started and led by Mitch and Zahavah Glasser, who were members of First Covenant Church of San Francisco, when I met them.

Neither of these are legalistic; and both encourage their members to attend and serve in Biblically sound mainstream churches.

I have since found another: Ariel Ministries.

This link demonstrates what I have been saying about what differentiates Messianic Judaism from Hebrew roots.

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs021m.pdf

RachelBibleStudent · Jun 14, 2015

here is an excellent article on the 'hebrew for christians' website that deals with testing messianic ministries...the same points they make also apply to 'hebrew roots' teachers...

Testing "Messianic" Ministries

i am just providing the link because the articles on that site are copyrighted and the owner has made a specific point of asking that people not copy and paste from it...and i am respecting their wishes...

sparkman · Jun 15, 2015

Hi RachelBibleStudent,

Thanks for posting this. It is super helpful

RachelBibleStudent said:

tanach · Jun 16, 2015

There is a huge difference in Christians studying and understanding the Jewish roots of Christianity and Christians 'playing' at being Jewish. Being Jewish involves a cultural mindset as well as religious aspects in an individuals life. There are Jewish people who recognise Jesus as their Messiah but continue to follow Jewish customs. Unless you were born of Jewish parents or have converted there is no cultural or religious compulsion to follow Judaism. I am studying our Jewish roots and my nickname is the Jewish name for the Old Testament. I should mention that it should be spelt with a K not a C. I was in a hurry to join! hence the typo.

JaumeJ · Jun 16, 2015

Some think of being Jewish as regarding what Leah had to say when she gave birth to and named Judah. I know this is my reference always.

tanach said:

There is a huge difference in Christians studying and understanding the Jewish roots of Christianity and Christians 'playing' at being Jewish. Being Jewish involves a cultural mindset as well as religious aspects in an individuals life. There are Jewish people who recognise Jesus as their Messiah but continue to follow Jewish customs. Unless you were born of Jewish parents or have converted there is no cultural or religious compulsion to follow Judaism. I am studying our Jewish roots and my nickname is the Jewish name for the Old Testament. I should mention that it should be spelt with a K not a C. I was in a hurry to join! hence the typo.

sparkman · Jul 22, 2015

I heard a Hebrew Roots person in the chatroom say that God and Jesus Christ are "containers" that hold the Holy Spirit. This is a bizarre view of God. I am wondering if Hebrew Roots people tend to hold this view as a whole. It's basically a deniel of the Trinity and the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, however it's worded.

JaumeJ · Jul 22, 2015

I have no idea if this is wrong or right, but one thing I do know, it is the Holy Spirit living in us That keeps us as one in the Body of Christ with Him as the Head taken to Heaven. It seems all who are in Jesus Christ also have the Holy Spirit residing in them, and come the time for His return, it could well be the onlhy way to be with Him forever is to be one with Him and the Father by means of That Holy Spirit. No, I do not adhere to this, but, I do understand the plausible grain it contains. It is like everyone in th eWater will be the River of Life, but again this is just a poetic though, not intended to influence any.-

Keep in mind Hebrew Roots, like all cults of what is called Judaism and Christianity have different types of doctrines. God does not look at our labels given by men, He looks into our hearts. If people are injured by any of these cults, do not blame The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they did not organize any denomination on the face of this earth for Jesus teaches the faith of Abraham, what we receive when we come to the cross in repentence. This is not a denomination it is alive, and it is Lefe in Jesus Christ, amen.

tanach · Jul 22, 2015

Having faith in Christ and his death and resurrection is of course the basis of our salvation. But when the Gospel was first preached there was no New Testament. When Paul uses the Phrase 'according to the scriptures' he refers to the Old Testament. On the road to Emmaus Jesus taught the two Disciples from the Old Testament. No your salvation does not depend on the OT but you will have an impoverished Christian life without knowing at least the basic content of it.
The Holy spirit speaks through the whole Bible not just our favorite bits. There was an early christian heretic called Marcion who
claimed the God of the OT was an inferior God, who was responsible for the material creation. He claimed that a higher spiritual God was the real one to be worshiped.
He created the first recorded cannon of scripture. That included an edited version of Luke and Pauls epistles. All OT references to God were removed. He was a wealthy man and started his own church which lasted I belive for a few centuries. Point is dont follow his example by picking and choosing which bits of the Bible to acknowledge.

Elin · Jul 22, 2015

tanach said:

Having faith in Christ and his death and resurrection is of course the basis of our salvation. But when the Gospel was first preached there was no New Testament. When Paul uses the Phrase 'according to the scriptures' he refers to the Old Testament. On the road to Emmaus Jesus taught the two Disciples from the Old Testament. No your salvation does not depend on the OT but you will have an impoverished Christian life without knowing at least the basic content of it.
The Holy spirit speaks through the whole Bible not just our favorite bits. There was an early christian heretic called Marcion who
claimed the God of the OT was an inferior God, who was responsible for the material creation. He claimed that a higher spiritual God was the real one to be worshiped.
He created the first recorded cannon of scripture. That included an edited version of Luke and Pauls epistles. All OT references to God were removed. He was a wealthy man and started his own church which lasted I belive for a few centuries. Point is dont follow his example by picking and choosing which bits of the Bible to acknowledge.

That makes a nice tale. . .

Elin · Jul 22, 2015

JaumeJ said:

I have no idea if this is wrong or right, but one thing I do know, it is the Holy Spirit living in us That keeps us as one in the Body of Christ with Him as the Head taken to Heaven. It seems all who are in Jesus Christ also have the Holy Spirit residing in them, and come the time for His return, it could well be the onlhy way to be with Him forever is to be one with Him and the Father by means of That Holy Spirit. No, I do not adhere to this, but, I do understand the plausible grain it contains. It is like everyone in th eWater will be the River of Life, but again this is just a poetic though, not intended to influence any.-

Keep in mind Hebrew Roots, like all cults of what is called Judaism and Christianity have different types of doctrines. God does not look at our labels given by men, He looks into our hearts. If people are injured by any of these cults, do not blame The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they did not organize any denomination on the face of this earth for
Jesus teaches the faith of Abraham,

No, Abraham's faith won't save me, only my own faith will save me.

Jesus teaches my faith in himself, which was also the faith of Abraham.

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