Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

Are such beliefs not rightly called gnostic?

Against Heresies (Irenaeus on the gnostics))

"Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved."​

No, It should not be seen as gnostic.

Because the law states we are saved, Not by our conduct. (for by our conduct we would only be condemned) But by the sacrifice of the redemptive lamb on the day of redemption.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

It not about how good we are. we can never be good enough.

it is about what Christ did..

People need to stop trying to take credit for themselves. and depending on themselves and start giving it all to Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which proves that they are not the new sinless creations that they think they are.

smh, More lies. more games. does it ever end?

The only people in here who claim to be sinless are on your team, Claiming salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Are such beliefs not rightly called gnostic?

Against Heresies (Irenaeus on the gnostics))

"Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved."​

And the Roman Catholic church still believes this nonsense.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Doctrinally you are confusing JUSTIFICATION with Salvation. JUSTIFICATION is when we COME TO A SAVING KNOWLEDGE by the truth of the new testament Way. The truth of the saving nature of the new testament teachings never changes, never goes away. But behaviors and mindsets can change and a person strays from the path, putting themselves in an even greater danger - that of double mindedness. Salvation is to who persevere to the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doctrinally you are confusing JUSTIFICATION with Salvation. JUSTIFICATION is when we COME TO A SAVING KNOWLEDGE by the truth of the new testament Way. The truth of the saving nature of the new testament teachings never changes, never goes away. But behaviors and mindsets can change and a person strays from the path, putting themselves in an even greater danger - that of double mindedness. Salvation is to who persevere to the end.

As HRFTD would say, This hints of gnosticism, WH based salvaion on knowledge, not reality.

Justification is a legal term which means one has been declared innocent of all charges (justified) or aquited of all charges (Justified or declared righteous)

One can have knowledge of justification. and not be justified at all.. Knowledge will never save you, or declare you innocent (thats what the gnostics taught)

Being adopted as a child of God.. Now, that, Will save you.

 

[Grace777x70]

When believers sin - they sin in the flesh to fulfill "its" desire. Romans 6:13

When the word of God becomes corruptible - then so will the new creation in Christ. It's all foolishness and it is an antichrist belief and is "gnostic" to the natural mind. We are born of incorruptible seed and His seed remains in us. - the new man in Christ has been created in righteousness and holiness.

You can either believe in Christ and what He has already done or live our own life "doing our deeds of righteousness" to qualify for us for heaven. This is denying the Lord and Master who saved us.

Of course all these spiritual truths are "gnostic" to the natural man's mindset trying to qualify themselves for heaven by their own good deeds.

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Doctrinally you are confusing JUSTIFICATION with Salvation. JUSTIFICATION is when we COME TO A SAVING KNOWLEDGE by the truth of the new testament Way. The truth of the saving nature of the new testament teachings never changes, never goes away. But behaviors and mindsets can change and a person strays from the path, putting themselves in an even greater danger - that of double mindedness. Salvation is to who persevere to the end.

No, you are confusing sanctification for justification.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Which proves that they are not the new sinless creations that they think they are.

What is odd to me is, in the past they admitted openly to sinning, some even every day, and some even wilful sin, but yet now they claim they cannot sin, even when they sin? LOL Truly a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is odd to me is, in the past they admitted openly to sinning, some even every day, and some even wilful sin, but yet now they claim they cannot sin, even when they sin? LOL Truly a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

lol. These two make me laugh.

No one is claiming they can not sin. Except for two of their buddies. (Non Osas Types)

Seems like all some people want to do is attack others.

Well. let them have their fun and games..

In fact. lets put it to the test.

You and HRFTD please show where Grace777 and anyone else says we are sinless.

Thank you.. (I have copied this post for future reference.)

 

[FreeNChrist]

What is odd to me is, in the past they admitted openly to sinning, some even every day, and some even wilful sin, but yet now they claim they cannot sin, even when they sin? LOL Truly a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Well that's what separates "us" from "you". We know "we" are all in the same boat, so none of us think more highly of ourselves than any others.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What is odd to me is, in the past they admitted openly to sinning, some even every day, and some even wilful sin, but yet now they claim they cannot sin, even when they sin? LOL Truly a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

It's the dissociative identity thing. Split the person into two identities - one that sins (the old man) and one that doesn't (the new man) - then identify with the good identity and discard and ignore the existence of the bad identity. You're exactly right - double-mindedness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's the dissociative identity thing. Split the person into two identities - one that sins (the old man) and one that doesn't (the new man) - then identify with the good identity and discard and ignore the existence of the bad identity. You're exactly right - double-mindedness.

I repeat.

In fact. lets put it to the test.

You and HRFTD please show where Grace777 and anyone else says we are sinless.

Thank you.. (I have copied this post for future reference.)

 

[1LonelyKnight]

The gospel and new testament amplification and explanation is a legal concept i.e., testament. Learning of this teaching means one has come to this saving knowledge (not worldly knowledge (gnosticism)). Faith comes by hearing ... The grace you might claim that saves, comes through FAITH in the truth of the teachings. BELIEF is an active Faith compelling one to stay on the path of the teaching that brings Faith. This does not mean that a person new in the walk will not trip or stumble or fall. It means they will get back up again, check their spiritual map to reorient themselves, and continue on their spiritual journey.

The apostles left fishing - to become fishers of men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The gospel and new testament amplification and explanation is a legal concept i.e., testament. Learning of this teaching means one has come to this saving knowledge (not worldly knowledge (gnosticism)). Faith comes by hearing ... The grace you might claim that saves, comes through FAITH in the truth of the teachings. BELIEF is an active Faith compelling one to stay on the path of the teaching that brings Faith. This does not mean that a person new in the walk will not trip or stumble or fall. It means they will get back up again, check their spiritual map to reorient themselves, and continue on their spiritual journey.

The apostles left fishing - to become fishers of men.

Amen,

This is why OSAS/Eternal security are facts, not fiction, Because Gods true children DO do this, Because they have true faiht in their father.

The ones who do not do this, Are trusting self. or have no faith at all.. But love there sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

What is odd to me is, in the past they admitted openly to sinning, some even every day, and some even wilful sin, but yet now they claim they cannot sin, even when they sin? LOL Truly a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)

[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[Grace777x70]

I repeat.

In fact. lets put it to the test.

You and HRFTD please show where Grace777 and anyone else says we are sinless.

Thank you.. (I have copied this post for future reference.)

Don't bother with him...we know the purpose why this is being done.

Christian only have one identity and it is a son/daughter of God.

To a man that doesn't believe a Christian is born again until they receive a new body - everything is "gnostic" and the new creation in Christ is a mystery, the new man in Christ created in righteousness and holiness is a mystery, living by the life of Christ inside of us is a mystery.

They cannot see that the Holy Spirit cut our inner man away from the body of the flesh with the circumcision of Christ. The flesh is not a person. We are called saints now - sanctified and made righteous by the blood of Christ.

Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't bother with him...we know the purpose why this is being done.

Christian only have one identity and it is a son/daughter of God.

To a man that doesn't believe a Christian is born again until they receive a new body - everything is "gnostic" and the new creation in Christ is a mystery, the new man in Christ created in righteousness and holiness is a mystery, living by the life of Christ inside of us is a mystery.

They cannot see that the Holy Spirit cut our inner man away from the body of the flesh with the circumcision of Christ. The flesh is not a person. We are called saints now - sanctified and made righteous by the blood of Christ.

Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

its all good. I am just going to keep a copy of all these times they do this.. And me confronting them and them not answering.. WHo knows. may be able to use it one day..

 

[Grandpa]

It's the dissociative identity thing. Split the person into two identities - one that sins (the old man) and one that doesn't (the new man) - then identify with the good identity and discard and ignore the existence of the bad identity. You're exactly right - double-mindedness.

That is pretty close. But its not dissociative. Its not double minded. Its faith.

You can have faith in your work;

Hebrews 10:2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Or you can have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 10:10-14

[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


So when you are repenting you should be turning from beholding your own work and sin, and turn to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who perfects forever those who are being sanctified.


Is it double-minded? Only if someone can trick you into beholding your own sin. Then its time to repent and stop being double-minded and behold the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Chester]

Amen,

This is why OSAS/Eternal security are facts, not fiction, Because Gods true children DO do this, Because they have true faiht in their father.

The ones who do not do this, Are trusting self. or have no faith at all.. But love there sin.

Oh, Oh, oh - Oh - I need to learn to keep my mouth shut - I know - why stir up old debates . . .

but I can't just let this one drift by . . . simply saying something is a fact doesn't make it one!

Showing a clear Scripture verse that says OSAS would make it a fact, but I haven't been shown one yet . . .

 

[Chester]

Oh, Oh, oh - Oh - I need to learn to keep my mouth shut - I know - why stir up old debates . . .

but I can't just let this one drift by . . . simply saying something is a fact doesn't make it one!

Showing a clear Scripture verse that says OSAS would make it a fact, but I haven't been shown one yet . . .

But why do that on this thread - I guess if you want to show me a verse that teaches OSAS go back to the thread I started a month or so ago that asks for a verse to prove OSAS!