Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Grace777x70]

These certain men who are not saved come in and deny the finished work of Christ. Jude 1:4 and some replace the grace of God for doing what they want. These can be seen here too in CC with their anti-Christ beliefs. The mindset that denies being born again until we get a new body is anti-Christ in it's belief.

Jude 1:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

Jude 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If Jesus can be defiled when one sins because He is one with us in our spirit - then we can be defiled too. This is complete nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 is simply stating that everything will be preserved blameless " at the coming of our Lord" - that is the operative reality - when Jesus comes - He will have us preserved in Him.

This is worth repeating. Grace777x70 does not believe that sin can defile a Christian.

btw, the two verbs in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - kept and sanctify - are in the optative mood, which was used to express wishes and potentiality, not certainty.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

 

[Grace777x70]

Our inner man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness cannot be defiled as this is where the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption.

Sin is done by walking after the flesh and we are responsible with what we do with our bodies while on this earth. We can by the Spirit put to death the "deeds of the body" - which is where sin originates and is fulfilled. This does not separate us from Christ as some religious teachings indicate.

John 13:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

is washed = perfect passive.

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

If this is a mystery and "gnostic" to the natural mind - so be it!

 

[Chester]

Why not just take the verses simply for what they say:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I suppose you could try to argue that verses 4 an 5 do not mean this person is born again. But to me that seems pretty clear - if you are enlightened and are a partaker of the Holy Ghost - that sounds like a believer to me.

So then verse 6 says, "if he shall fall away" -- ??!! Just leave it like it is - the text gives it as a possible scenario - Paul probably isn't giving any sort of a proof text for anything. It is an "if" statement -

At the end of verse 6 are two present participles in Greek - "crucifying again" and "putting to an open shame". A present participle is action occurring at the same time as the main verb - which in this case the main verb is "to renew"

So the interpretation of verse 6 becomes clear - If someone should fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying Christ again and are putting him to an open shame.

But if they stop crucifying Christ again and stop putting him to an open shame? Can they be renewed to repentance? The text does not say. I think the hint would be that they can be renewed to repentance.

But the text does not say that if a Christian should fall away that under no circumstances could he be restored to fellowship (renewed to repentance). He cannot be renewed to repentance while he is crucifying Christ again and while he is putting him to an open shame.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This bears repeating. Grace777x70 does not believe that sin can defile a Christian.

btw, the two verbs in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - kept and sanctify - are in the optative mood, which was used to express wishes and potentiality, not certainty.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

This should be noted for all to see.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

the word has perfected is in the perfect tense. Meaning it is a completed action.

The word sanctified is in the active tense, Passive voice. Meaning the subject (in the case the one who was perfected forever) is in the process of being sanctified by an outside force. and the person being worked on may not even know it is happening.

so as we see. Not only does said use deny Jesus said whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood is in a active state of living forever, having eternal life, Will never hunger or thirst. Will never die, and assured by Christ himself he will be risen on the last day

He does not believe that a person who is in the process of being sanctified, Has already been perfected. SO the author of Hebrews is not being truthful either?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why not just take the verses simply for what they say:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I suppose you could try to argue that verses 4 an 5 do not mean this person is born again. But to me that seems pretty clear - if you are enlightened and are a partaker of the Holy Ghost - that sounds like a believer to me.

So then verse 6 says, "if he shall fall away" -- ??!! Just leave it like it is - the text gives it as a possible scenario - Paul probably isn't giving any sort of a proof text for anything. It is an "if" statement -

At the end of verse 6 are two present participles in Greek - "crucifying again" and "putting to an open shame". A present participle is action occurring at the same time as the main verb - which in this case the main verb is "to renew"

So the interpretation of verse 6 becomes clear - If someone should fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying Christ again and are putting him to an open shame.

But if they stop crucifying Christ again and stop putting him to an open shame? Can they be renewed to repentance? The text does not say. I think the hint would be that they can be renewed to repentance.

But the text does not say that if a Christian should fall away that under no circumstances could he be restored to fellowship (renewed to repentance). He cannot be renewed to repentance while he is crucifying Christ again and while he is putting him to an open shame.

I do not know what to say,

If they fall away, is a question. Maybe the can maybe they cant. Thats all it is.

The fact they can not be renewed is a positive.. There is no question. Putting Christ to shame is what going back to law does Is what legalism does. It says that his death was not sufficient. To say one can lose salvation "fall away" puts christ to shame.. That is why the law was faught so hard by Paul and others. Because even though people believed in Christ, they did not trust the cross.. They considered it an addition to the gospel. not the gospel message itself.

Paul said I only want you to know Christ crucified, Thats the root of salvation.

 

[UnderGrace]

Katy-follower explains it well here, it all works perfectly when it is read from the perspective of Jesus's finished work

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

They are following away from abiding in God's grace and His finished work, thinking that they must return to the law.

I do not know what to say,

If they fall away, is a question. Maybe the can maybe they cant. Thats all it is.

The fact they can not be renewed is a positive.. There is no question. Putting Christ to shame is what going back to law does Is what legalism does. It says that his death was not sufficient. To say one can lose salvation "fall away" puts christ to shame.. That is why the law was faught so hard by Paul and others. Because even though people believed in Christ, they did not trust the cross.. They considered it an addition to the gospel. not the gospel message itself.

Paul said I only want you to know Christ crucified, Thats the root of salvation.

 

[Th0mas]

Our inner man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness cannot be defiled as this is where the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption.

Sin is done by walking after the flesh and we are responsible with what we do with our bodies while on this earth. We can by the Spirit put to death the "deeds of the body" - which is where sin originates and is fulfilled. This does not separate us from Christ as some religious teachings indicate.

John 13:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

is washed = perfect passive.

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

If this is a mystery and "gnostic" to the natural mind - so be it!

2 Corinthians 7:1

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Philippians 2:

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

2 Corinthians 7:

9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

This is worth repeating. Grace777x70 does not believe that sin can defile a Christian.

That is at the core and the foundation of the false OSAS doctrine, the lie that ongoing unrepentant sin cannot effect your eternal security. That is why they go to great lengths to twist, pervert, and explain away scriptures and prophecy that speak of how many would in fact depart from the faith, and return to their old sinful ways and play the Harlot with the ways of the world.

To reject the Truth according to the words of God is to also reject Jesus Christ, the very Word of Truth and Life.

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Corinthians 7:1

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

.

When we take scripture out of it's context we can make it "appear" to say what we want. Let's look at 1 Cir 7:1. The Phil2:12-13 scriptures are just saying to work out what is already inside you and it is God that is giving us both the will and the ability to do it - 2 Cor 7 is talking about someone that was sorry for their actions.

I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

"In context" - let's view 2 Cor.7:1

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of the glory of the Lord as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are. We are transformed outwardly as we manifest His life in and through us.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness ).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is at the core and the foundation of the false OSAS doctrine, the lie that ongoing unrepentant sin cannot effect your eternal security. That is why they go to great lengths to twist, pervert, and explain away scriptures and prophecy that speak of how many would in fact depart from the faith, and return to their old sinful ways and play the Harlot with the ways of the world.

To reject the Truth according to the words of God is to also reject Jesus Christ, the very Word of Truth and Life.

Thats the twist of legalism, That a child of god can continue in unrepentant sin. Thats your one of many mistakes.

John said it was impossible. 1st John 3: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

You say it is possible

We need to listen to what the bible says, and not these things that judge someone as saying something they never said, or inferred.. That is what the pharisees were apt to do. we see what it got them..

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

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[Grace777x70]

That is at the core and the foundation of the false OSAS doctrine, the lie that ongoing unrepentant sin cannot effect your eternal security. That is why they go to great lengths to twist, pervert, and explain away scriptures and prophecy that speak of how many would in fact depart from the faith, and return to their old sinful ways and play the Harlot with the ways of the world.

To reject the Truth according to the words of God is to also reject Jesus Christ, the very Word of Truth and Life.

The new creation in Christ cannot sin. We are joined as one Spirit in the Lord. Sealed by the Holy Spirit. To this truth, works-based salvationists this is always a stumbling block because they don't understand the new birth in Christ. Which is why they need to "Do their own righteous deeds" to qualify for heaven. It's an anti-Christ belief.

This one born of God cannot sin - not once nor a million times. We don't go in and out of righteousness because of sin and Jesus does not leave us when we sin. This too is an anti-Christ belief.

People water down these verses in John because they don't understand what he is talking about. It's present tense - and present tense is always now. Some translations "added" their own view into the scripture by saying "does not habitually sin" because they know that all Christians sin.

When Paul told the Corinthians that they were having sex with the temple prostitutes - he didn't say you are not saved - he said you are taking Christ who is in you with you when you are doing that.

You are the temple of God. Paul always appealed to their identity and what Christ has already done for you in our new creation in Christ. You are the righteousness of God in Christ...sanctified, redeemed. 1 Cor. chapter 1-3 talk all about this fact.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

He who was born of God that keeps us is Jesus who is one with us in our inner man in our spirit - created in righteousness and holiness.

Brethren we have a great salvation in Him. He has done mighty things for us. We are secure in him. Don't be duped by those that try to make you feel that you have to "qualify" yourself for heaven. Jesus did it!

 

[Grace777x70]

Thats the twist of legalism, That a child of god can continue in unrepentant sin. Thats your one of many mistakes.

John said it was impossible. 1st John 3: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

You say it is possible

We need to listen to what the bible says, and not these things that judge someone as saying something they never said, or inferred.. That is what the pharisees were apt to do. we see what it got them..

EG..when they start their mockings...just leave it be..

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The new creation in Christ cannot sin.

Christ cannot sin, but you can.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG..when they start their mockings...just leave it be..

lol.They mock themselves. its all good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ cannot sin, but you can.

which is why we need grace 24/7

Thanks for reminding us of this basic fact of the gospel

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is worth repeating. Grace777x70 does not believe that sin can defile a Christian.

btw, the two verbs in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - kept and sanctify - are in the optative mood, which was used to express wishes and potentiality, not certainty.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

Anything God takes on Himself to do IS a certainty.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When we take scripture out of it's context we can make it "appear" to say what we want. Let's look at 1 Cir 7:1. The Phil2:12-13 scriptures are just saying to work out what is already inside you and it is God that is giving us both the will and the ability to do it - 2 Cor 7 is talking about someone that was sorry for their actions.

I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

"In context" - let's view 2 Cor.7:1

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of the glory of the Lord as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are. We are transformed outwardly as we manifest His life in and through us.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness ).

Are such beliefs not rightly called gnostic?

Against Heresies (Irenaeus on the gnostics))

"Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved."​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Christ cannot sin, but you can.

Which proves that they are not the new sinless creations that they think they are.