Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[LaurenTM]

Bear false witness much?

call Christians liars much?

oh wait... just those who don't hang on your every word and call you out on your self appointed rounds of debasing everyone who disagrees with you

God has not ordained you for that office. you remind me of Napoleon crowning himself and then crowing about it

best to let others pat proclaim your intelligence and righteous acts then to tell us all you are all that

the book of Proverbs will back that up

 

[Grace777x70]

grace777x70:

In your mind it is but let's "flesh" this out in real life terms.

The person who sows to their flesh will reap of the flesh corruption and this will come upon them but if we live by the spirit within us - it brings life - God's kind of life to us in this earth.

Let's think this out for a minute.

If a person is walking according to the flesh - let's say.."slandering people" or gluttony. Take a believer who is a glutton - they are walking in the flesh in doing that. This person goes to church, reads the bible and prays all the time but they are still caught in this gluttony thing.

This person's body will eventually reap corruption and die from a diet related disease. They could have walked by the spirit within them and had self-control which is a fruit of the spirit and thus experience God's kind of life on this earth - ( our bodies will still get old until we get the new ones...yes!)

In your religion what would happen to the above Christian that loves the Lord?

Would this person above who walked in the flesh all their lives when they die - go to hell because of this?...or are they not secure in Christ because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit in the inner man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

Spare me your scenario games which are meant to entrap, I already played that with you once, remember?

I do remember you dodged my question. It's a legitimate question considering your beliefs about people walking by the flesh.

If you feel that the real life questions are entrapping then maybe what they are doing is exposing what is really being said so that we can bring it to the light and really see it for what it is.

There can be no harm in that. State what you believe in my post above.

It should be a simple thing to give an honest answer. And you are free to have your own opinion in this matter too.

Does a person that is caught in some sort of a fleshly sin and they die - do they go to hell in your religion? You said that those that live by the flesh will die. Does that mean that they will go to hell?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

oh that's so much better

so you were just pretending you did not understand to try and make me look...uh...what's that word you like to use? oh yeah, stupid...well not me personally, just my comprehension

sadly though, you are adding, misquoting and generally twisting what I said

I am always glad that God is the One who keeps the record

perhaps one day, when you have managed to contain your contempt for those who disagree with you, we can have an honest discusssion; one where you don't slander others and deliberately twist what they say and then snicker at them

that is what I would make an attempt to correct if I had as many people telling me that their words are twisted as do you

Is this the way your mind thinks? I don't indulge your misapplication of that parable and then I correct it, and then you accuse me of "adding, misquoting and generally twisting" what you said; and slander; and having contempt. Sorry, the gig is up on this game, and it has fallen flat on it's face because we clearly see how it's played.

 

[UnderGrace]

I thought this was a Christian Discussion Board? I think you are in the wrong place.

Maybe there is a new age discussion board for you, since you ain't believin any of us.

How to Cleanse Your Spirit: 12 Steps (with Pictures)

Washing

A spiritual experience is not to be filled once, perfect done deal, but to be continually
filled and washed. It is like the process of obedience and washing changes, cleanses
and transforms us. It is always a walk, for eternity, where change is the way, nothing
ever stays still, because it is always an infinite variation of experience and aspect.

The problem with HG is they want to arrive at a destination that is singular and finished,
which is the definition of death not life. Life is about a continual arrival and moving on.

When in life has the arrival been only a goal achieved before the next goal is set.
I think this shows up there superficial understanding of things of God, and where they
want certainty where there is none, and change where there should just be purity and
righteousness.

 

[LaurenTM]

Is this the way your mind thinks? I don't indulge your misapplication of that parable and then I correct it, and then you accuse me of "adding, misquoting and generally twisting" what you said; and slander; and having contempt. Sorry, the gig is up on this game, and it has fallen flat on it's face because we clearly see how it's played.

LOL~!

now he's going for the intelligence insult

IQ of almost 130 here

take it up with God

I can't help it if I have a great memory and you don't

 

[LaurenTM]

here is the truth of the matter

6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,each of us has turned to our own way;and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53

Jesus has borne our sins, Jesus has borne our iniquity and died the death we deserve

to those who imagine themselves some kind of being above that sacrifice, you must surely be filled with pride and satan has blinded your eyes

no one is better than another. go read your New Testament

some here fancy they are God's gatekeeper. they are not.

they are not anyone's judge but their own, and it seems they have failed even at that

if you condemn another and imagine you are more righteous, then which Jesus is telling your this? it cannot be Jesus who washed the disciples' feet

no, that Jesus would look on you with very sad eyes

folks, let's consider the words of some here and how they are so quick to condemn others. they are not your savior and they do not have the words of life

Christ alone is your Savior as He is mine and as the disciples said to Him, to who else shall we go when YOU have the words of life?

the arguing in this thread reminds me of the soldiers casting lots at the feet of Jesus as He hung on the cross

don't cast lots, instead look at your Savior and remember that HE is the one from which we receive anything worth receiving and He does not condemn you if you are His, so do not let another condemn you. no one in this forum can judge your heart...that is God's right and His territory


23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.24“Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”[SUP]a[/SUP]

So this is what the soldiers did. John 19

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

call Christians liars much?

Only those who lie.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

grace777x70:

In your mind it is but let's "flesh" this out in real life terms.

The person who sows to their flesh will reap of the flesh corruption and this will come upon them but if we live by the spirit within us - it brings life - God's kind of life to us in this earth.

Let's think this out for a minute.

If a person is walking according to the flesh - let's say.."slandering people" or gluttony. Take a believer who is a glutton - they are walking in the flesh in doing that. This person goes to church, reads the bible and prays all the time but they are still caught in this gluttony thing.

This person's body will eventually reap corruption and die from a diet related disease. They could have walked by the spirit within them and had self-control which is a fruit of the spirit and thus experience God's kind of life on this earth - ( our bodies will still get old until we get the new ones...yes!)

In your religion what would happen to the above Christian that loves the Lord?

Would this person above who walked in the flesh all their lives when they die - go to hell because of this?...or are they not secure in Christ because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit in the inner man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.




I do remember you dodged my question. It's a legitimate question considering your beliefs about people walking by the flesh.

If you feel that the real life questions are entrapping then maybe what they are doing is exposing what is really being said so that we can bring it to the light and really see it for what it is.

There can be no harm in that. State what you believe in my post above.

It should be a simple thing to give an honest answer. And you are free to have your own opinion in this matter too.

Does a person that is caught in some sort of a fleshly sin and they die - do they go to hell in your religion? You said that those that live by the flesh will die. Does that mean that they will go to hell?

Let me refresh your memory. The first time you asked several weeks ago I gave answers with scripture to support my answers. Then you moved on and tried your entrapment game on someone else, when that didn't work several days later you tried it on me again. I then reminded you at that time I had already answered your questions earlier, but you kept on and on with your scenario, not only with me, but with others as well. You kept trying and trying so hard to bring accusations with your little game until the mod finally stepped in and said something to you about it. Remember now?

So no, I am not going to play your little games.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When I see someone advocating holiness and righteousness, and then see others condemn that person for being legalistic, self-righteous, judgmental, condemning, prideful, etc., I sense that there are some unresolved issues spilling over from previous bondage to legalism and spiritual abuse that are manifesting themselves as rejection of all standards and authority. Or something like that...

 

[FreeNChrist]

[h=1]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10)[/h]

 

[Grace777x70]

Let me refresh your memory. The first time you asked several weeks ago I gave answers with scripture to support my answers. Then you moved on and tried your entrapment game on someone else, when that didn't work several days later you tried it on me again. I then reminded you at that time I had already answered your questions earlier, but you kept on and on with your scenario, not only with me, but with others as well. You kept trying and trying so hard to bring accusations with your little game until the mod finally stepped in and said something to you about it. Remember now?

So no, I am not going to play your little games.

No the mods did not step in and say something to me about asking you about living from the flesh and whether people go to hell if they do. That is not the truth.

Show us all. Go get the thread and the posts and we'll bring things out in the open.

Let's bring the truth out. ...if you cannot bring the thread and posts out then that is slander and lying about a fellow believer in Christ too. Also that is maligning a fellow believer in Christ too.

So, in real life you will not answer to back up your theory? - what is the harm? It just brings things to light because you did say that if a person lived by the flesh they will die ( which is true) but to you it means that they will not go to heaven. So, I'll ask one more time because I just want you to be honest with us.

I brought it out to HeRose too because he said the same thing as you. Christians that live after the flesh will die and not go to be with the Lord if they live after the flesh - you die and do not go to heaven.

What is the harm in bringing things out in the light to see it for what it really is?

Both of you dodged the question like it was a piece of dynamite on fire. I can certainly understand why the both of you would dodge it because it exposes what you are saying and it's application in real life.

I want to test your theory out in real life. I'll give one more chance to be honest with us.

The person who sows to their flesh will reap of the flesh corruption and this will come upon them but if we live by the spirit within us - it brings life - God's kind of life to us in this earth.

Let's think this out for a minute.

If a person is walking according to the flesh - let's say.."slandering people" or gluttony. Take a believer who is a glutton - they are walking in the flesh in doing that. This person goes to church, reads the bible and prays all the time but they are still caught in this gluttony thing.

This person's body will eventually reap corruption and die from a diet related disease. They could have walked by the spirit within them and had self-control which is a fruit of the spirit and thus experience God's kind of life on this earth - ( our bodies will still get old until we get the new ones...yes!)

In your religion what would happen to the above Christian that loves the Lord?

Would this person above who walked in the flesh all their lives when they die - go to hell because of this?...or are they not secure in Christ because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit in the inner man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

Does a person that is caught in some sort of a fleshly sin and they die - do they go to hell in your religion? You said that those that live by the flesh will die. Does that mean that they will go to hell?

 

[Cee]

1 John 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness. He does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Matthew 7:6 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

1 Co 13
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[SUP]a[/SUP] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[SUP]b[/SUP] 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[Grace777x70]

Let me refresh your memory. The first time you asked several weeks ago I gave answers with scripture to support my answers. Then you moved on and tried your entrapment game on someone else, when that didn't work several days later you tried it on me again. I then reminded you at that time I had already answered your questions earlier, but you kept on and on with your scenario, not only with me, but with others as well. You kept trying and trying so hard to bring accusations with your little game until the mod finally stepped in and said something to you about it. Remember now?

So no, I am not going to play your little games.

I will also give you a chance to be honest with us when you can't find that thread and post that you say the mod came in on concerning asking you questions on how your theory worked in real life for Christians that love God but are stuck in some thing of the flesh - that they will die and not be in heaven with the Lord.

I am asking you to just admit that it was not the truth in what you said and no harm done.

If not, I will have to report your post. I don't want to do this but this is the kind of behavior we are trying to stop here in CC amongst us so that we can discuss views in an environment of safety without the fear of being slandered and maligned. It's ok to agree to disagree on things. That is not the issue here.

Thank you for your honesty here. I believe you will do the right thing...

I'll help you with where the mod came in and used my post as an example of not reading the OP correctly and then bringing up something that was different from the OP. They called it hi-jacking. It has nothing to do with you or the question I was asking you about your theory as what you said above in your post.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-other-than-romans-8-1-lol-4.html#post2647448

 

[PennEd]

I will also give you a chance to be honest with us when you can't find that thread and post that you say the mod came in on concerning asking you questions on how your theory worked in real life for Christians that love God but are stuck in some thing of the flesh - that they will die and not be in heaven with the Lord.

I am asking you to just admit that it was not the truth in what you said and no harm done.

If not, I will have to report your post. I don't want to do this but this is the kind of behavior we are trying to stop here in CC amongst us so that we can discuss views in an environment of safety without the fear of being slandered and maligned. It's ok to agree to disagree on things. That is not the issue here.

Thank you for your honesty here. I believe you will do the right thing...

I'll help you with where the mod came in and used my post as an example of not reading the OP correctly and then bringing up something that was different from the OP. They called it hi-jacking. It has nothing to do with you or the question I was asking you about your theory as what you said above in your post.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-other-than-romans-8-1-lol-4.html#post2647448

Don't give any chances brother. He was my very 1st ignore, and I have no regrets about it. We need more joy in the boards not the Grace plus works crowd.

 

[wattie]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Yeah, also 'fall away' in this passage does not mean 'lose eternal life'

It does mean.. along the lines of 'struggle with sin' or 'commit self righteous works'

This passage also does not mean 'never saved in the first place' if you were to 'fall away'

It is just as you have already typed. A born again person is given eternal life once for all.. and so it is impossible to put Christ back on the cross to pay for your sins again and be saved again.

I think there is also the point of not being able to use animal sacrifices to please God after being born again.. which would have been an issue with Judaistic, Hebrew believers going back to old ways.

Good post thanks

 

[Grace777x70]

Don't give any chances brother. He was my very 1st ignore, and I have no regrets about it. We need more joy in the boards not the Grace plus works crowd.

I understand but mercy triumphs over judgment. There is no harm in giving him a chance to correct his false accusation.

 

[UnderGrace]

Don't give any chances brother. He was my very 1st ignore, and I have no regrets about it. We need more joy in the boards not the Grace plus works crowd.

Indeed!

It just saddens me so much that some who are so, so, so into making and keeping themselves righteous by their own self effort that they are blinding themselves thereby actually believing that their own self-effort is what God requires.

The irony here is that self-effort in the end is pride and what did Satan say....I will be like the most High and He convinced Eve of the same thing who convinced Adam and that lie just keeps getting passed down through the generations.

I guess it is important to try and show them but ultimately there is a time to move on.

Good advice PennEd... because I will be honest the strife definitely does not bring out the Jesus in me.

 

[Grace777x70]

I will also give you a chance to be honest with us when you can't find that thread and post that you say the mod came in on concerning asking you questions on how your theory worked in real life for Christians that love God but are stuck in some thing of the flesh - that they will die and not be in heaven with the Lord.

I am asking you to just admit that it was not the truth in what you said and no harm done.

If not, I will have to report your post. I don't want to do this but this is the kind of behavior we are trying to stop here in CC amongst us so that we can discuss views in an environment of safety without the fear of being slandered and maligned. It's ok to agree to disagree on things. That is not the issue here.

Thank you for your honesty here. I believe you will do the right thing...

I'll help you with where the mod came in and used my post as an example of not reading the OP correctly and then bringing up something that was different from the OP. They called it hi-jacking. It has nothing to do with you or the question I was asking you about your theory as what you said above in your post.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-other-than-romans-8-1-lol-4.html#post2647448

Inspirtintruth:

Ok, I decided to help you some more. Here is the thread I was asking HeRose politely about what "living after the flesh" looked like it real live.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-27.html#post2634328

Here I am asking him again because he dodged the legitimate question as I was trying to understand his theory.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-27.html#post2634349

Here I am again asking him as he keep dodging the question.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-27.html#post2634370

Then he accuses me of passive aggressive slander and does not answer my question so I ask him again as I want to know how his theory works in real life.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-28.html#post2634384

All throughout the thread there were different people attacking others and there were many reports on the thread as any one that reads it will see. This had nothing to do with asking questions about a theory. You can see my demeanor towards him was cordial and not attacking. Finally a mod came in and this is what was said in order to stop all the bickering and reporting going on.

Quote:

Since it seems this thread has originated more reported posts in the past couple of days than any other thread in recent history, with reports coming from two separate factions reporting each others posts back and forth it is now closed.

If these two factions don't figure out how to discuss their differing doctrinal opinions in a civil fashion (since they've been at each others throats for months) we will be forced to start removing users.

If you think that this warning doesn't apply to you...................THINK AGAIN.

Unquote:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-28.html#post2634436

So, there you have it - the truth of what really happened. Anyone can go and read the posts to see the truth.

 

[Katy-follower]

Yeah, also 'fall away' in this passage does not mean 'lose eternal life'

It does mean.. along the lines of 'struggle with sin' or 'commit self righteous works'

This passage also does not mean 'never saved in the first place' if you were to 'fall away'

It is just as you have already typed. A born again person is given eternal life once for all.. and so it is impossible to put Christ back on the cross to pay for your sins again and be saved again.

I think there is also the point of not being able to use animal sacrifices to please God after being born again.. which would have been an issue with Judaistic, Hebrew believers going back to old ways.

Good post thanks

I can see the element of legalism in it.

Here's my followup post, incase you missed it. Wish I could add this to my original post, but no option for that....


The subject is spiritual immaturity ......



Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"

After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)

Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!

Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.

So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!

 

[Th0mas]

I can see the element of legalism in it.

Here's my followup post, incase you missed it. Wish I could add this to my original post, but no option for that....


The subject is spiritual immaturity ......



Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"

After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)

Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!

Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.

So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!

I'm not reviling you, did you say the exact words of Matthew 6 in which Jesus commanded to say to pray to show that you wanted God's salvation ? Or did you say different words to pray and disobeyed what Jesus commanded ?