Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Amen, they have already been in a state of condemnation. It is nto that they returned to that state

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know trying to live again under the law was only one way to apostasy right? Sum it up as one who returns from belief to live in flesh and denies Christ.

1 John 2, How many times do we have to go over this, The man who denies Christ is an antichrist, and was NEVER SAVED, they did not LOSE salvation, they never had it.

The site you posted from is a lie.

Having the holy Spirit doesnt mean you wont go to hell. We scripture speaking on having the Spirit but some still commit Apostasy

So God lied, He did not seal us with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption. He sealed us with the spirit as long as we do not commit apostasy, and may be our seal until ressurection (redemption) day.

for someone who said we called God a liar. You sure do call God a liar alot.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

*This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

I must spread some rep..

Thanks for taking the time to really research this, and once again show how taking a passage out of context can seem to support your view.. but that does not mean it does..

Study to shew ourselves approved amen and amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*Once again, a tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NAS translation says "doubly dead."

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

*THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS AND THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.* Also, Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

another post that deserves a rep. Amen brother,, Thanks for showing this..

 

[Chris1975]

Yep. they sure lost their salvation, Thats why Paul chastened them, So they would learn from their mistakes.

Oh wait,, Chastening only happens to children of God. not people who are not saved (or lost salvation)

oops..

I'm not the one struggling with contradictions. You are the one saying you can only be justified by faith (true), and then saying also that this justification remains after faith is shipwrecked.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes grace through faith.

Grace is gods response

Faith is mans response to the message of grace.

so we can be saved and not have true faith? which produces true works?

We can say, yes God I trust you, And sit down and do nothing?

In whose world is that possible??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Try removing Faith from the equation and you don't have Grace.

Your the one removing faith, not us.

Gods children do not lose faith. Impostors do (because they never had faith to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God didn't honor free will he would of never gave adam and eve a tree of life and a tree of knowledge, with one rule.

He does honor free will.

He will not give salvation to anyone who does not want it

and he will nto give it to someone who does not realy trust him, and he knows will walk away because they truly do not trust him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And we as believers are free to make the choice once again. Live by the Spirit, or Live by the Flesh.

An unregenerated man cannot live by the Spirit. Only the man you has been born again, whose Spirit has come to life, can be led by the Spirit.

And an unregenerate man will not be chastened by God so he returned when he lives by the flesh.

A regenerate man is born of the spirit. and will be led by the spirit, even if it is painful. (ask Jonah how if felt to spend three days in the belly of a great fish because he wanted to live by the flesh (his own desire to have god destroy Nineveh, and not the spirit (gods desire to have Nineveh repent))

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said I made a mistake by characterizing believers as righteous. I showed you from scripture that believers are called righteous, so I engaged with you, yet you accused me of not engaging with you. You also said my method of talking to people is plain stupid and you also accused me of lacking in sense. Why should I even bother to take you seriously?

I wonder how some people can listen to themselves and not see tier own depravity and sin.. it just amazes me the pride of some people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How could they be righteous without God having made them righteous in the first place? You step into your own ditch.

And you just dug yours.

There is righteousness which comes by the law (self righteousness) and righteousness which comes by faith (Gods righteousness)

As posted by my brother mailmandan.

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Go read up on the topic of Election. Then we can discuss.

Why? all we need to do is read Jude.

It is clear. Now you want to deflect? Please..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation is an "overcoming".

No it is not. If this is true, we have to EARN our salvation, and salvation is not of grace it is of works.

God did the overcoming (the cross) we just have to place our faiht in him, 1 that we need hi, and 2 that he did what he said, and 3 he will do what he promised.

otherwise, we have no faith. Only illusion which acts like faith.

We are saved - point in time. Then we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling). Then to those who "overcome" he will grant everlasting life.

Yep. Here we have it You preach works,, You reject grace, Thanks, I will copy this for future reference when you deny you teach works.

At any point during the process, if the believer turns his back on God, then he is an apostate.

Plenty scriptures for the above. Go look them up.

Yep. keep boasting and puffing yourself up. And then deny your not trying to EARN a gift..

You have been fooled by the same people who fooled the pharisee that he to was righteous, and had to continue to obey the law or he would lose the right to heaven.

 

[garee]

Salvation is an "overcoming". We are saved - point in time. Then we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling). Then to those who "overcome" he will grant everlasting life.

At any point during the process, if the believer turns his back on God, then he is an apostate.

Plenty scriptures for the above. Go look them up.

It becomes how do we hear God not seen?

If God in respect to His grace does not work to first turn a believer the person cannot truly repent. He must do the first works. Repentance is a work of God, seeing when we do deny Him in unbelief (sin) if he has paid the full eternal wage He cannot deny Himself that he did make atonement according to His suffering before hand, as the lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world (the first six days when he was working) we enter that rest.

Salvation has overcame the sin debt not overcoming. It would seem you are turning things upside down a not walking by the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God... called the hearing of faith. Christ’s work is our confidence

If Christ has begun the good work of salvation he will finish it ,not perhaps or maybe.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Salvation as a finished work has overcame not overcoming. Believers have passed from eternal damnation to eternal spirit life. Because every sin we will ever commit has been atoned for in respect to Christ's work of faith.Therefore we can continually work out (not work for to gain) that which he has freely given us . Because (cause and effect) it is He that works in us to both will and do His god pleasure called a imputed righteousness .We do not work to gain (work for)a free gift.

He is our living sacrifice. Believers have passed from eternal damnation to eternal spirit life. Because every sin we will ever commit has been atoned for in respect to Christ's work of fait, therefore we can continually work out that which he has freely given us .Not work for the free gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not the one struggling with contradictions. You are the one saying you can only be justified by faith (true), and then saying also that this justification remains after faith is shipwrecked.

Nah,, You have already been shown you take alot of scripture out of context..

My God knows all. He does not get fooled by someone who does not really have faith..

 

[Chris1975]

Originally Posted by mailmandan

Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

*This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

Once again a total lack of comprehension. You have to shoot across to Ezekiel 33 to pick out what God was saying about self righteousness, and they apply this to Ezekiel 18 which shows a man who was righteous in God's eyes.

THEN lets go along with your reasoning until you fall into the next ditch.....

If the Ezekiel 18 rightoeusness is Self (Own) Righteousness ---- then why would God choose not to remember it anymore?
- verse 20 talks about authentic righteousness, and authentic wickedness.
- verse 21 - if a wicked man turns away from wickedness and does what is lawful and right....(does that sound like Self Righteousness?)
- verse 22 - none of the transgressions will be remembered. Sound like Self Righteousness????
- verse 23 - God's mercy - not wanting a wicked man to die, but rather to repent and turn.
- verse 24 - Now the other side of the coin. When a righteous (not self righteous) turns back towards iniquity --- shall he live?
So please. Stop trying to infuse man's doctrines into the word of God. You are adding to and taking away from the Word. And what you have tried to do here is deceitful.

 

[Chris1975]

So now that we have established that it is authentic righteousness, we now need to come back to the original question.

How could they be righteous without God having made them righteous in the first place?

 

[truthhurts]

I understand that the finished work of Christ conflicts with the religious teachings of some people that say those that belong to Christ lose their salvation. We don't save ourselves. Christ alone is the Savior. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit with be in you forever. John 14:16. Jesus is not a liar.

You would have more luck with trying to get me to believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation then Jesus is lying to us about the Holy Spirit and that He is the Savior based on His work alone which we receive by grace through faith.


Everyone is free to believe what they want. I personally believe that this "lose your salvation" doctrine is the worse thing that our enemy has put into the mind of man to undermine the work of Christ and to create a religion of 'saving ourselves".

It denies the very work of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection and nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

It has caused more harm to the body of Christ then any other foul doctrine that denies the work of Christ for His children that He loves dearly. Yes, there are false people amongst us but we don't bite and tear at the sheep because of them and condemn them because of the false ones.

I have read and heard from a few doctors that say a lot of the people in the mental institutions are Christians and it stems from this foul doctrine of losing one's salvation in Christ. The enemy has a field day with the minds and emotions of our precious brothers and sisters in Christ.

We need to preach and teach the grace and love of God so that we can grow up in Him.

losing and walking/falling away are 2 very different things.....even Paul told us that many WILL leave the faith or fall away....

Apostasy is not willful unbelief....it is walking/falling way from willful belief and faith in Jesus and his sole work of redemption...

The only way you can make everyone goes to heaven despite apostasy work, is if you are preaching Christian Universalism or predestination.....these are both predicated on the lie, that your own personal faith is not exercised in the salvation decision...which negates free will....

I do not believe at all in losing salvation...I do believe in walking/falling away....There are also rites of Blasphemy in Occult circles that invoke blaspheming the Holy Ghost....

 

[truthhurts]

Nah,, You have already been shown you take alot of scripture out of context..

My God knows all. He does not get fooled by someone who does not really have faith..

Yeah but you and DC believe in Christian Universalism....which means you believe the faith that saves you is not your own, but God or Jesus' faith and because of that nobody goes to hell no matter what...

 

[samuel23]

Hi Katy: After being saved in a Baptist I was a steadfast OSAS for many years until someone challenged me on it and I took an honest look at the scriptures. I like to call it unconditional eternal security, while the bible teaches conditional eternal security. Anyway, that scripture you are quoting does not mean that a saved person can never be lost, it means that if a saved person truly becomes lost, they cannot come back and be resaved. There are saved folks who have been away from God and the Lord gave then another chance, that is not what the scripture refers to. We are only saved once, we can fall away and come back, however if we ever actually lose our salvation then it is over for us. There are some who actually teach, saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, then saved, ect...not in the bible.