HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?
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I felt really led to write to you again. I do see where you're coming from but please consider this. You will find on different places in the Bible:
"And the Word of the LORD" (who is His Word?) came to (insert the name of the prophet here) then and then, saying"
So whose word it actually is - man's, or God's?
Paul received the Holy Spirit and He spoke by the same Spirit that Jesus spoke. Paul spoke His words. Also you, when you receive the Holy Spirit, are empowered to speak His words - as much as you are filled with His Spirit. It might not be in the Bible but it is the Word of God no less than what is in the Bible and in accord with the Bible, because of JESUS living in you as He lived in Paul.
This just struck my mind too. Remember how big Paul is on offense thing. Paul teaches that some things are not forced upon us by God and we have liberty, however, we should avoid offense to a brother as to not cause stumbling by our liberty. Compare Paul to Jesus here:
Temple tax was commanded by the Law (Exodus 30:13; 38:25).
And here you have Jesus teaching that CHILDREN of God (new covenant, the Spirit of adoption) are exempt from this. He acts like Paul to avoid offense, but teaches that God does not condemn them if they do not do this.
So yes, the law did not change - WE do change through Christ. Hope this springs up thoughts because I would really want you to think about this. I feel all soaring in Spirit typing this out to you. God bless you.
"And the Word of the LORD" (who is His Word?) came to (insert the name of the prophet here) then and then, saying"
So whose word it actually is - man's, or God's?
Paul received the Holy Spirit and He spoke by the same Spirit that Jesus spoke. Paul spoke His words. Also you, when you receive the Holy Spirit, are empowered to speak His words - as much as you are filled with His Spirit. It might not be in the Bible but it is the Word of God no less than what is in the Bible and in accord with the Bible, because of JESUS living in you as He lived in Paul.
This just struck my mind too. Remember how big Paul is on offense thing. Paul teaches that some things are not forced upon us by God and we have liberty, however, we should avoid offense to a brother as to not cause stumbling by our liberty. Compare Paul to Jesus here:
Temple tax was commanded by the Law (Exodus 30:13; 38:25).
And here you have Jesus teaching that CHILDREN of God (new covenant, the Spirit of adoption) are exempt from this. He acts like Paul to avoid offense, but teaches that God does not condemn them if they do not do this.
So yes, the law did not change - WE do change through Christ. Hope this springs up thoughts because I would really want you to think about this. I feel all soaring in Spirit typing this out to you. God bless you.
Again it is not Paul that is the problem, yes he was human and ,made error just like every others person did but the problem is with people twisting him to suit the desires of the heart.
this was just posted in anther thread....
1Co 7:19 the circumcision is nothing, and the uncircumcision is nothing--but a keeping of the commands of God.
... the money changer had perverted the "temple tax" you know that.... ?
so im only saved if I refuse to read His instructions and dammed if I read and seek to obey.... know that I believe the Instruction were explained in perfect manner by Yahshua, and example would be the so called "beatitudes"
Can you quote me a few places where Paul speaks like that saying, ""And the Word of the LORD" (who is His Word?) came to (insert the name of the prophet here) then and then, saying"" that is not from the "OT" not implying if that is not said there is not insparation but when a prophet says, "Yahweh says" IT IS CLEAR DIRECT FROM HIS MUOTH, and call me this or that, I take notice when "Yahweh says"
They are the words of Yah if one say, Yahweh says....
But and dont jump on me, im not saying Paul was not inspired, because some of the things he says are the most vibrant and amazing in Scripture, but in many of His letters he is writing to certain groups of people and explaing himself and how he feels, there is nothing wrong with this, but when he is explain is actions, feeling, etc this is not "the words of Yah" it is a man seeking and following explain himself, which there is nothing wrong with.
But when someone talkes taht and ignores all others Scripture there is a problem, look at many of the posts that disagree with my views, noting but galatians posted.... heck I would thikn Jesus words are not even in the Scipture how sparingly His words are quoted, in this I see error, for He said His teachings would NEVER pass away. and yes all His apostles and idsciple carry His doctrine, but His lips carry His words for sure, 100% without a doubt. So why am I spokne evil of if I quote the Messiah;s lips? amongst followers of Messiah, you see noting odd with that?
Whew so I hope I dint miss anything, and thank you for being kind.
NOw "liberty" has a wide wide wide range of understnading here, so I dont know how to reply to that without further explanation of what you are meaning here. ?
this was just posted in anther thread....
1Co 7:19 the circumcision is nothing, and the uncircumcision is nothing--but a keeping of the commands of God.
... the money changer had perverted the "temple tax" you know that.... ?
so im only saved if I refuse to read His instructions and dammed if I read and seek to obey.... know that I believe the Instruction were explained in perfect manner by Yahshua, and example would be the so called "beatitudes"
Can you quote me a few places where Paul speaks like that saying, ""And the Word of the LORD" (who is His Word?) came to (insert the name of the prophet here) then and then, saying"" that is not from the "OT" not implying if that is not said there is not insparation but when a prophet says, "Yahweh says" IT IS CLEAR DIRECT FROM HIS MUOTH, and call me this or that, I take notice when "Yahweh says"
They are the words of Yah if one say, Yahweh says....
But and dont jump on me, im not saying Paul was not inspired, because some of the things he says are the most vibrant and amazing in Scripture, but in many of His letters he is writing to certain groups of people and explaing himself and how he feels, there is nothing wrong with this, but when he is explain is actions, feeling, etc this is not "the words of Yah" it is a man seeking and following explain himself, which there is nothing wrong with.
But when someone talkes taht and ignores all others Scripture there is a problem, look at many of the posts that disagree with my views, noting but galatians posted.... heck I would thikn Jesus words are not even in the Scipture how sparingly His words are quoted, in this I see error, for He said His teachings would NEVER pass away. and yes all His apostles and idsciple carry His doctrine, but His lips carry His words for sure, 100% without a doubt. So why am I spokne evil of if I quote the Messiah;s lips? amongst followers of Messiah, you see noting odd with that?
Whew so I hope I dint miss anything, and thank you for being kind.
NOw "liberty" has a wide wide wide range of understnading here, so I dont know how to reply to that without further explanation of what you are meaning here. ?
1 Corinthians 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The LORD should be YHWH in your translation, I used KJV.
I mean being led by the Holy Spirit instead of the list of rules.
The list of rules would condemn Rahab, because she lied, but she did no evil before God... hope I make sense to you.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The LORD should be YHWH in your translation, I used KJV.
I mean being led by the Holy Spirit instead of the list of rules.
The list of rules would condemn Rahab, because she lied, but she did no evil before God... hope I make sense to you.
We can agree it is the Spirit that leads to truth, when I read the Law I do not see it in black and white.
Putting a rail around my home and not lying, etc is so much beyond that!
John 7:24, "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."
Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"
and know the words of Messiah are bound to my soul and Yah willing will continue to be!
Psalm 40:16, "May all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You! May those who love Your Salvation always say: May Yahweh be magnified!"
Putting a rail around my home and not lying, etc is so much beyond that!
John 7:24, "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."
Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"
and know the words of Messiah are bound to my soul and Yah willing will continue to be!
Psalm 40:16, "May all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You! May those who love Your Salvation always say: May Yahweh be magnified!"
C
So what version do you suggest we read?
The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and it's easy to spot any errors if it's read along side the Greek this way ...
2Pe 3:15 AndG2532 accountG2233 that theG3588 longsufferingG3115 of ourG2257 LordG2962 is salvation;G4991 even asG2532 ourG2257 belovedG27 brotherG80 PaulG3972 alsoG2532 accordingG2596 to theG3588 wisdomG4678 givenG1325 unto himG846 hath writtenG1125 unto you;G5213
2Pe 3:16 AsG5613 alsoG2532 inG1722 allG3956 his epistles,G1992 speakingG2980 inG1722 themG846 ofG4012 these things;G5130 inG1722 whichG3739 areG2076 some thingsG5100 hard to be understood,G1425 whichG3739 they that are unlearnedG261 andG2532 unstableG793 wrest,G4761 asG5613 they do alsoG2532 theG3588 otherG3062 scriptures,G1124 untoG4314 theirG848 ownG2398 destruction.G684
The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and it's easy to spot any errors if it's read along side the Greek this way ...
2Pe 3:15 AndG2532 accountG2233 that theG3588 longsufferingG3115 of ourG2257 LordG2962 is salvation;G4991 even asG2532 ourG2257 belovedG27 brotherG80 PaulG3972 alsoG2532 accordingG2596 to theG3588 wisdomG4678 givenG1325 unto himG846 hath writtenG1125 unto you;G5213
2Pe 3:16 AsG5613 alsoG2532 inG1722 allG3956 his epistles,G1992 speakingG2980 inG1722 themG846 ofG4012 these things;G5130 inG1722 whichG3739 areG2076 some thingsG5100 hard to be understood,G1425 whichG3739 they that are unlearnedG261 andG2532 unstableG793 wrest,G4761 asG5613 they do alsoG2532 theG3588 otherG3062 scriptures,G1124 untoG4314 theirG848 ownG2398 destruction.G684
C
I wish you knew what you have been saying here. You know what you posted on page 1 and elsewhere, and you know what you wrote in this paragraph - but you haven't a clue to the gravity of what you've been posting, in the Eyes of The Word of GOD made flesh.
Why don't you just be more HONEST about how you feel about Paul - as you were on page 1?
Is 'honesty' not a part of 'your' law? You like the Apostle John - well, he wrote on the opposite of honesty quite a bit.
Did you think page 1 would disappear? Or other like statements about Paul in this thread?
I don't use flouride - I don't forget. Maybe others do or maybe this isn't an issue on the thread about Paul being a genuine Apostle, commissioned by Christ Himself and maybe we'll just go along with life as usual here on CC - now that we're getting off topic of this thread and why Mr. HitAndRun started this thread.
You are blaming Paul for what others have done by twisting Paul's words or actually, leaving out a half of his words -- when it isn't Paul's fault -- it's those who are blinded by their own beliefs that are myopic and only see what they want to from Paul's writings --- like you but the polar opposite of what you see of Paul's writings - TWO EXTREMES fighting head to head and you being the only one to blame Paul for their extreme to excuse your extreme.
It's real big of you to give Paul credit for some of the things he says being the most vibrant and amazing in Scripture.
Too bad that you see many of His letters as not inspired by His Spirit of Truth.
That's why many that take on your beliefs, have to throw out Paul -- and are ALSO the type that Peter was talking about - as well - where he aligned Paul's writing with the rest of "the Scriptures".
Both sides of the extreme that you've debated with - your extreme and theirs - both are mentioned in that quote you like so much from Peter - as Peter should know, having been rebuked by Paul over in Galations.
Is Paul at fault for either of these two extremes - No. Not in the slightest - he wrote SCRIPTURE and when it was his opinion in one place - He also stated - that he had "the mind of Christ".... which he certainly did ... or were you caught up to the third Heaven and have heard otherwise?
So you've had to "duck and cover" since this thread. You can't duck and cover from HIM and what you 'think' [HE does knows your thoughts] and what you wrote about His Apostle to the Gentiles that HE assigned to write over half of HIS NEW Covenant and who suffered more than any Apostle and cared for many more Churches than the others and educated Luke so Luke could write Acts, and Paul was shown more than any Apostle - so much so that he wasn't allowed to speak of what he heard or saw and in his heart-of-hearts would have gone to Hell for His fellow Jews if that were possible - ETC, ETC!
All I've got to with this is - All of the very best that MESSIAH has to offer you for your words on Paul.
The topic of Jesus vs Paul is to me a nauseating topic when some obtuse soul tries to make Paul the bogey man, and not exactly what this thread is about. For we know that Paul sinned, which fact has nothing to do with the prophetic nature of his epistles or oral prophesies. But as a matter of fact, the general canard seems to be that some consider statements put on the lips of the earthly Jesus in the gospels to be superior to the prophesies of Paul. But we don't have the exact words of Christ in the gospels -- what is in Revelation may be. But it appears that the gospels give the gist in Greek of what Christ spoke in Aramaic, only in rare cases an exact quotation.
But all of this is irrelevant to the use of scripture. What we have is God's Word in Hebrew, OT Aramaic, & Greek. The Lord gives us the gist of Christ's words. The gospels are humanly written not by Christ, just as Paul's epistles are not humanly written by Christ either. What the prophets Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John produced was God's word, no more & no less that what prophet Paul produced.
The sayings of the earthly Jesus in the gospels, moreover, are mostly under the Law of Moses -- that is to say, the Law was still in effect, but also the context of those sayings is the Kingdom proclamation: Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The law is no longer in effect, neither is the Davidic Kingdom at hand. Christ gave specific rules for the Kingdom announcement: missionaries were restricted in what baggage they could carry. Matthew 10 gives rules that I doubt any missionary today would follow. Also Christ Himself made a change in His dispensational teaching when He commanded to buy a sword later.
Thus I put it to you that the scripture of primary importance to the Church starts at Acts 2 with the new dispensation of the Church. The epistles of the NT are scripture of primary importance to the Church in the Church age, more so that the Law of Moses or the teachings of Jesus on earth. Paul's writings are the teachings of the risen Lord Jesus to the Church.
This has nothing to do with the question of Paul's sinning. I find very little actual sin recorded as done by Paul. And it is notable that Paul is the only person (aside from Christ) who is said to be an example for us to copy. Paul was the recipient of incredible grace from God. Evidently Paul was even taken to Heaven and shown things he was forbidden to reveal to us (possibly in vision). When I read the dedication of Paul & the incredible sufferings he went through to bring us the gospel, I realize I am unworthy to tie the shoe laces of such a great man of God. And Paul was a handicapped man who had suffering from a thorn in the flesh.
Paul I know, and Jesus I know, but who are you?
But all of this is irrelevant to the use of scripture. What we have is God's Word in Hebrew, OT Aramaic, & Greek. The Lord gives us the gist of Christ's words. The gospels are humanly written not by Christ, just as Paul's epistles are not humanly written by Christ either. What the prophets Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John produced was God's word, no more & no less that what prophet Paul produced.
The sayings of the earthly Jesus in the gospels, moreover, are mostly under the Law of Moses -- that is to say, the Law was still in effect, but also the context of those sayings is the Kingdom proclamation: Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The law is no longer in effect, neither is the Davidic Kingdom at hand. Christ gave specific rules for the Kingdom announcement: missionaries were restricted in what baggage they could carry. Matthew 10 gives rules that I doubt any missionary today would follow. Also Christ Himself made a change in His dispensational teaching when He commanded to buy a sword later.
Thus I put it to you that the scripture of primary importance to the Church starts at Acts 2 with the new dispensation of the Church. The epistles of the NT are scripture of primary importance to the Church in the Church age, more so that the Law of Moses or the teachings of Jesus on earth. Paul's writings are the teachings of the risen Lord Jesus to the Church.
This has nothing to do with the question of Paul's sinning. I find very little actual sin recorded as done by Paul. And it is notable that Paul is the only person (aside from Christ) who is said to be an example for us to copy. Paul was the recipient of incredible grace from God. Evidently Paul was even taken to Heaven and shown things he was forbidden to reveal to us (possibly in vision). When I read the dedication of Paul & the incredible sufferings he went through to bring us the gospel, I realize I am unworthy to tie the shoe laces of such a great man of God. And Paul was a handicapped man who had suffering from a thorn in the flesh.
Paul I know, and Jesus I know, but who are you?
The Bible is the word of God. This is self-evident & affirmed by the Sheep who hear Christ's voice.
Paul's writings are part of the Bible, thus they are God's word, as Peter affirms.
For I will not dare to speak of any things save those which Christ wrought through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed, Rom 15.
I think a great amount of misunderstanding has arisen from reading 1 Cor 7 where it appears that Paul distinguishes his opinions from Christ's words. A better understanding of the Greek is not that Paul is giving an opinion in the sense of maybe. Paul is giving his dictum as a prophet of God. And this can be distinguished from a saying of the earthly Jesus. Paul in that instance had no quotation from the earthly Jesus to quote, but he gave his prophetic dictum as the word which Christ wrought through him.
Pasa graphe theopneustos.
As Peter affirms, Paul's writings are scripture graphe theopneustos).
Paul's writings are part of the Bible, thus they are God's word, as Peter affirms.
For I will not dare to speak of any things save those which Christ wrought through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed, Rom 15.
I think a great amount of misunderstanding has arisen from reading 1 Cor 7 where it appears that Paul distinguishes his opinions from Christ's words. A better understanding of the Greek is not that Paul is giving an opinion in the sense of maybe. Paul is giving his dictum as a prophet of God. And this can be distinguished from a saying of the earthly Jesus. Paul in that instance had no quotation from the earthly Jesus to quote, but he gave his prophetic dictum as the word which Christ wrought through him.
Pasa graphe theopneustos.
As Peter affirms, Paul's writings are scripture graphe theopneustos).
K
Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE
Quit dogging HIZ. he is what he is. Yes a person listing to OT works, but at least He is on the path. Better than robbing and stealing and killing. Yeah I know, brother He is teaching the wrong way. Well I taught the wrong way for years till the Holy Spirit got a hold of me and said no. Do not, belittle your weaker brother. It Is better that a mill stone be tied around your neck and cast into the sea than to cause one of my little ones to err. If He wants to speak Hebrew then let him. if he finds that law brings him closer to God, then let God show him different. Who am I And who are you?
Quit dogging HIZ. he is what he is. Yes a person listing to OT works, but at least He is on the path. Better than robbing and stealing and killing. Yeah I know, brother He is teaching the wrong way. Well I taught the wrong way for years till the Holy Spirit got a hold of me and said no. Do not, belittle your weaker brother. It Is better that a mill stone be tied around your neck and cast into the sea than to cause one of my little ones to err. If He wants to speak Hebrew then let him. if he finds that law brings him closer to God, then let God show him different. Who am I And who are you?
H
Hi dc,
Just a few points for your consideration.
Most here agree that nobody is perfect in physical behavior.
But regarding Paul's claim of being "chief sinner", note the verses before to see what he referred to.
1Tim 1:13-15.
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Note that Paul describes his former actions as a blasphemer, persecutor and insolent man.
Note also that in the context of his claim of being a "chief sinner", he speaks of being saved by Christ.
Hence we see Paul was actually referring to his former actions as an unbeliever. He was a chief sinner until he was finally saved by Christ. After receiving Christ he was no longer blaspheming, persecuting or being insolent, that had earned him the chief sinner title when he was an unbeliever.
Consider also Gal 2:15.
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (Rom 2:28,29), and not sinners of the Gentiles (unbelievers),
Paul, in Gal 2:15, declares himself as not being a sinner.
Paul is not contradicting himself with 1Tim 1:15. In fact both these verses confirm each other.
And Paul is not saying that he is physically perfect in behavior.
Instead he refers to the Christian's position in Christ being covered by his righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, perfection. Remember that our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
Just a few points for your consideration.
Most here agree that nobody is perfect in physical behavior.
But regarding Paul's claim of being "chief sinner", note the verses before to see what he referred to.
1Tim 1:13-15.
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Note that Paul describes his former actions as a blasphemer, persecutor and insolent man.
Note also that in the context of his claim of being a "chief sinner", he speaks of being saved by Christ.
Hence we see Paul was actually referring to his former actions as an unbeliever. He was a chief sinner until he was finally saved by Christ. After receiving Christ he was no longer blaspheming, persecuting or being insolent, that had earned him the chief sinner title when he was an unbeliever.
Consider also Gal 2:15.
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (Rom 2:28,29), and not sinners of the Gentiles (unbelievers),
Paul, in Gal 2:15, declares himself as not being a sinner.
Paul is not contradicting himself with 1Tim 1:15. In fact both these verses confirm each other.
And Paul is not saying that he is physically perfect in behavior.
Instead he refers to the Christian's position in Christ being covered by his righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, perfection. Remember that our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
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Unless I have said I was mistaken, I stand by what I say.
Was Paul in error when he:
From page 1:
“Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him.” (Acts16:3)
"Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole Law” (Gal5:2).
And if you say he did it to please the Jews... YOU ARE ILLUSTRATING HIS ERROR...
How can we have it both ways?
Either circumcision was right or wrong.
Its not it wrong unless were doin it to please some men....
But Im evil for asking this question.
There is only One who never errored.
and this :
1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."
Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
How is this explained away....
Feel free to not answer those questions and pile on...
I dont get it, Yahweh says, for He will send One Hiim you must obey.... I say hey lets listen to the perfect teachings of the One sent, everyone freaks out and says you must ignore everything He spoke and only what He said through Paul is valid.... when Paul was a man that made mistakes, does have some amazing amazing truth is his writings but he is not the Messiah, there is only one Messiah.
When I stand before Yah... nvm...
Was Paul in error when he:
From page 1:
“Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him.” (Acts16:3)
"Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole Law” (Gal5:2).
And if you say he did it to please the Jews... YOU ARE ILLUSTRATING HIS ERROR...
How can we have it both ways?
Either circumcision was right or wrong.
Its not it wrong unless were doin it to please some men....
But Im evil for asking this question.
There is only One who never errored.
and this :
1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."
Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
How is this explained away....
Feel free to not answer those questions and pile on...
I dont get it, Yahweh says, for He will send One Hiim you must obey.... I say hey lets listen to the perfect teachings of the One sent, everyone freaks out and says you must ignore everything He spoke and only what He said through Paul is valid.... when Paul was a man that made mistakes, does have some amazing amazing truth is his writings but he is not the Messiah, there is only one Messiah.
When I stand before Yah... nvm...
H
The reason you don't get it is because you are not rightly dividing the word.
Jesus was keeping and teaching the law as is required under the law. If he didn't then he would be guilty of sin and would not count as the lamb without blemish for the sacrifice.
Jesus also preached the alternative of righteousness by faith (John 3:16).
We see these 2 contrasted in 2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Take Matt 19:16-21 as an example of how legalists selectively pick out only some of Christ's message.
Legalists selectively quote only Matt 19:16-19.
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
But note the verses following.
Matt 19:20,21
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I STILL LACK?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be PERFECT (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:14), go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, FOLLOW ME” (John 3:16)
Matt 19 contrasts the 2 different covenants and yet legalists selectively pick out and preach the ministry of condemnation/death over the ministry of the Spirit/righteousness.
Jesus was keeping and teaching the law as is required under the law. If he didn't then he would be guilty of sin and would not count as the lamb without blemish for the sacrifice.
Jesus also preached the alternative of righteousness by faith (John 3:16).
We see these 2 contrasted in 2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Take Matt 19:16-21 as an example of how legalists selectively pick out only some of Christ's message.
Legalists selectively quote only Matt 19:16-19.
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
But note the verses following.
Matt 19:20,21
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I STILL LACK?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be PERFECT (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:14), go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, FOLLOW ME” (John 3:16)
Matt 19 contrasts the 2 different covenants and yet legalists selectively pick out and preach the ministry of condemnation/death over the ministry of the Spirit/righteousness.
So if you sin is it accounted to you as a sin? and what is sin? is stealing a sin?
and do you believe these 2 passages?
John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
and do you believe these 2 passages?
John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE
Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."
We should bring an issue to the person themselves, not talk about them in the shadows.
Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."
We should bring an issue to the person themselves, not talk about them in the shadows.
Here is a example of what I dont get... how people can take this:
1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah."
Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."
Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."
Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."
Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."
Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."
Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:
Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "
Not only odes the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.
Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to Yahweh through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."
enmity is:
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
He abolished the hatred of the Law...
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."
and turn it into anyone who says the Law is valid is bad!!!!!!!
1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah."
Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."
Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."
Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."
Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."
Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."
Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:
Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "
Not only odes the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.
Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to Yahweh through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."
enmity is:
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
He abolished the hatred of the Law...
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."
and turn it into anyone who says the Law is valid is bad!!!!!!!
H
Sin is not accounted to Christians (Rom 8:33).
Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4 (but Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18)
Sin is unrighteousness, 1John 5:17 (but Christians are righteous as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).
BTW, regarding your quote of John 7:16 above, God's will is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40
As for Psalm's you're not rightly dividing the word. Remember that law was out tutor to bring us to Christ, Gal 3:25.
Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4 (but Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18)
Sin is unrighteousness, 1John 5:17 (but Christians are righteous as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).
BTW, regarding your quote of John 7:16 above, God's will is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40
As for Psalm's you're not rightly dividing the word. Remember that law was out tutor to bring us to Christ, Gal 3:25.