HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

haz · Jan 15, 2015

Here is a example of what I dont get... how people can take this:

1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah."

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:

Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "

Not only odes the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.

Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to Yahweh through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."

enmity is:
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.

He abolished the hatred of the Law...

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."

and turn it into anyone who says the Law is valid is bad!!!!!!!

And as you have admitted you FAIL to keep the law then you yourself are condemned by the doctrine you follow.

Again you are not rightly dividing the word

john832 · Jan 15, 2015

haz said:

I find it interesting that those who think the Law is done away have this canned response. It seems they believe that if they deny the Law, it does not apply to them.

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Hi, Hizikyah.

Zacharias, while filled with the Holy Ghost, referred to "our father (3962. patér) Abraham", didn't he?

Luke chapter 1

[67] And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
[68] Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
[69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
[70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
[71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
[72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
[73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
[74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
[75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Was Zacharias "sinning" when he used such terminology?

JESUS HIMSELF referred to "Father (3962. patér) Abraham", didn't He?

Luke chapter 16

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again:

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (John 8:56)

Was Jesus, Who had the Spirit without measure (John 3:34), "sinning" when He used such terminology? Perhaps He was also "sinning" when He said the following:

"And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" (Luke 13:16)

???

"A daughter of Abraham" has Abraham as her "father" (3962. patér) , doesn't she?

Perhaps Jesus, Who had the Spirit without measure (John 3:34), "sinned" again when He said:

Luke chapter 19

[8] And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

???

"A son of Abraham" has Abraham as his "father" (3962. patér), doesn't he?

Perhaps Stephen, "a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 6:5) whose face apparently shone "as it had been the face of an angel" (Acts 6:15), "sinned" when he referred to "father (3962. patér) Abraham"?

"And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran," (Acts 7:2)

Then, of course, we have the following words of Paul who was similarly indwelt by the Holy Ghost:

Romans chapter 4

[11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Yes, according to Paul, Abraham is "the father (3962. patér) of all them that believe" in that Christ is "Abraham's seed" (Galatian 3:16) and we're all "begotten" or "born again" through faith in Christ. With this background, let's examine your "quote" of Paul IN CONTEXT:

"For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." (I Corinthians 4:15)

Paul's use of "father" in relation to himself was directly related to the fact that he "had begotten the Corinthians through the gospel" or that they had become "born again" as a direct result of his preaching/teaching or "planting" of the "seed" of God's Word coupled with Apollos' "watering" of the same AND GOD GIVING THE INCREASE:

I Corinthians chapter 3

[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

In this same manner, Paul spoke of "begetting" Onesimus:

"I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:" (Philemon 1:10)

Furthermore, Paul REGULARLY gave glory to "God the Father" in his epistles, so for you to even imply that Paul was somehow violating Jesus' command is simply ridiculous. As such, I'd strongly encourage you to cease from the same from hereon.

secularhermit · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Here is a example of what I dont get... how people can take this:

1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah."

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:

Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "

Not only odes the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.

Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to Yahweh through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."

enmity is:
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.

He abolished the hatred of the Law...

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."

and turn it into anyone who says the Law is valid is bad!!!!!!!

What concerns it is that Jesus Himself was subject to it (to fulfil it) and he reinforced it ( "but I say unto you... ") and soon after their is an odd lessening no one else, but Paul denied. To get more people? (Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, etc)

This is something to think of a "new" covenant: "Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

There were "special" guests who were too busy to attend the meeting (Luk 14:24) but it is sure ALL have to be properly dressed with holiness, at least (Mat 22:12)

I´m not a jew, but I know the way is narrow, too narrow, and I´m endangered to fall short.

Luk 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Hi, Hizikyah.

Once more, by pulling Paul's words TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT, you've foolishly sought to attach a meaning to his words which was NEVER his intent. Here is your "quote" IN CONTEXT:

I Corinthians chapter 10

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
[14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
[15] I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
[16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
[18] Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?
[19] What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
[22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
[23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
[24] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
[25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
[26] For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
[27] If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
[28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
[29] Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
[30] For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
[31] Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
[32] Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
[33] Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

For crying out loud, Hizikyah, Paul had JUST FINISHED warning his readers about such things as "idolatry", "fornication", "tempting Christ" and "murmuring", so how the hell do you even suggest that he was somehow teaching "lawlessness"? It's nonsense and you really do need to cease from the same. Paul's comment about "all things being lawful to him" was in direct relation to the eating of meats which he could give thanks for in good conscience towards God. Even then, Paul would abstain from the same FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE if a weaker brother shared not the same knowledge that he had (I Corinthians 8:13). Anyhow, please stop pulling Paul's words OUT OF CONTEXT and butchering the same. Thank you.

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

secularhermit said:

I am not a Jew either.

But one thing people misunderstand, IMO, is something you hinted at I think...

I tried to bring it up here when I first came to this site, but none considered it and there me under the bus...

So in the hebrew language, which the "OT" Scriptures and some of the "NT" was written in there is not word for re-new, there is only new.

Example:

"New Moon" it is the same "moon" every 30 days, but it starts it's cycle over every 30 days... Again it is not a literal new moon... People misunderstand/don't understand the foresight of Yah, that He knew all that would happen before it did, it's not like He realized one day, oh I messed up, I have to change this, no but rather the physical priesthood and animal sacrifice were a placeholder, "the weak and unprofitable" a thing for the people to "have faith/works in" before Messiah came, but it was the foresight of Messiah, a way for them to understand a need for Him while letting the people have their go a it.

This Psalm explains it so so so perfectly IMO, better than I ever could:

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

"My covenant will stand fast with Him"

"My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie"

If He does not change and He does not lie, how is all the Instructions non-binding?

Man may break covenant with Yah, but as Yah says, "My covenant I will not break". The Hand of Yah is always out offering the same offer that He has always offered to mankind.... however we are in a new age that was spoken of in Scripture:

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "7 For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Yet I am spoken evil of for promoting what the word calls love, but no surprise, for it is written:

Revelation 12:17
English Standard Version
"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Isayah 59:13-15, "In transgressing and lying against Yahweh, and turning away from following our Father, speaking oppression and rebellion, conceiving and uttering from the mind words of falsehood: So judgment is driven backwards, and justice stands far off, for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yes, truth is suppressed; and he who departs from evil is accounted as mad. Yahweh saw this, and it displeased Him that there was no justice."

(some "new moon" verses as talked about above)

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Psalms 81:3, "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day. "

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Hi, Hizikyah.

This is just more butchering of Paul's words on your part. Again, here is your "quote" IN CONTEXT:

II Corinthians chapter 12

[14] Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
[15] And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
[16] But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
[17] Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
[18] I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

CONTEXTUALLY, what was the "craftiness" and "guile" of which Paul spoke? Well, just go back and read chapters 8 & 9 of this same epistle and you'll find the correct answer to this question. Yes, you'll find that Paul was merely provoking the Corinthians to give to poor saints, even as they had said that they were willing to do so previously, by telling them how other churches had already done the same. IOW, there was nothing "sinister" or "sinful" about said "craftiness" or "guile", so, again, please stop your unfounded assault upon Paul and his character. Thank you. Also, please note how that Paul again considered himself to be their "parent" in that he had such care for them that he was willing to be "spent" for them.

P.S.

I haven't read beyond the first page of this thread nor do I intend to. I've shown you three grievous errors on your part and hopefully you will go before the Lord to have Him determine what is the root cause of the same and then deal with it accordingly.

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

I have read the entire passage/book many times, you are the only one that gave me the response I was looking for... IDK if others missed it, or what but I will explain:

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

You know how many people in the world and on this site have told me "all things are Lawful" for them.... as in all things... their views is that yeah, it might not be helpful but anything I choose is Lawful....

So are you seeing my point?

I think Paul's error is writing in a way that can make people think LITERALLY , "all things are Lawful"

for the words of Messiah are so very clear, and Paul's words, are easily misunderstood....

Do you see my view? Not saying you have to agree, but do you see my point in bringing all this up. (well I did not start this thread but was rather called out) But my point remains the same....

Could he not just have easily written all things set forth of Yah are Lawful? and would that not have cleared up a ton of misunderstanding? (maybe he did and in manuscript copying it got lost, IDK, just saying/giving Paul the benefit of the doubt)

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Hi, Hizikyah.

This is just more butchering of Paul's words on your part. Again, here is your "quote" IN CONTEXT:

II Corinthians chapter 12

[14] Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
[15] And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
[16] But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
[17] Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
[18] I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

CONTEXTUALLY, what was the "craftiness" and "guile" of which Paul spoke? Well, just go back and read chapters 8 & 9 of this same epistle and you'll find the correct answer to this question. Yes, you'll find that Paul was merely provoking the Corinthians to give to poor saints, even as they had said that they were willing to do so previously, by telling them how other churches had already done the same. IOW, there was nothing "sinister" or "sinful" about said "craftiness" or "guile", so, again, please stop your unfounded assault upon Paul and his character. Thank you. Also, please note how that Paul again considered himself to be their "parent" in that he had such care for them that he was willing to be "spent" for them.

P.S.

I haven't read beyond the first page of this thread nor do I intend to. I've shown you three grievous errors on your part and hopefully you will go before the Lord to have Him determine what is the root cause of the same and then deal with it accordingly.

They are his own words....

For he himself said to a jew he became a jew, to a gentile he because a gentile....

That is craft and guile.

Here we disagree, call me what you will.

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

I have to prepare to head out of state for a bit shortly, so I'll keep my response brief...

You keep on citing II Peter 3:15-17, but I'm wondering if you've even read it yourself. IOW, the problem is NOT with Paul's writings, but with IGNORANT/UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE.

As such, how about we deal with THE REAL ISSUE HERE and just leave Paul and his writings alone? IOW, how about we deal with the root cause of why certain people are IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE?

I'm sorry, but I really do need to prepare to head out of state for a bit. Lord willing, I'll return to this conversation later on today.

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

So when Paul was being a jew to jews and a gentile to gentiles was he in the Spirit?

Did Yahsua change who He was when he ate with "sinners"

Im not saying Paul is worthless, Im saying he is a fallible human, who he himself said he made errors, how did being a jew to jews and a gentile to gentiles turn out for him, did it cause trouble or not? (does he not explain this somewhere?)

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Of course it is from peoples misunderstandings.... but Why is Paul the only person singled out?

So im the one who didn't read it.....

"Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand,

"Paul also wrote to you"

"when he speaks "

" in them"

Paul's letters....

but im the one not understanding the verse..... come on brother? so Paul's letters are not being talked about here?

what is truth in this matter?

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Well, if you really want an answer to your question, then I'll provide you with a straightforward one. Here is "the truth in this matter":

You regularly "cherry-pick" scriptures, TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT, to present your alleged "truths". If you want to talk to me and others about such things as Paul's "craftiness" and "guile" which I've already explained to you (even though you stopped your ears and hardened your heart to the same), then you'd better deal with YOUR OWN "craftiness" and "guile" FIRST. For example, why did you just TRUNCATE the portion of scripture which you've recently been plastering all over this forum IN A FULLER CONTEXT? You know, this one:

II Peter chapter 3

[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

???

Haven't I already mentioned the bold-faced underlined portion of this to you recently on another thread and more than once at that? Yes, I have. Why, then, do you continue to shut your eyes and harden your heart to the same? IOW, why do you keep on LYING by insisting that somehow Paul's words alone were being singled out? Can't you read?

"AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES"!!!

I've got to head out of state...

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

I did not say Paul's words alone, I said:

Hizikyah said:

As he is the only one mentioned by name, if you can quote where another Scripture writer;s name is mentioned I promise I will repent from that statement.

yes it says people twist all Scripture, however only one person is mentioned by name, and is the main focus of that passage... It is clearly written.

Hizikyah said:

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

From another thread but more Scriptural evidence:

john832 said:

According to Scripture, "Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

It is clearly written in Scripture.....

Hizikyah said:

I am not a Jew either.

But one thing people misunderstand, IMO, is something you hinted at I think...

I tried to bring it up here when I first came to this site, but none considered it and there me under the bus...

So in the hebrew language, which the "OT" Scriptures and some of the "NT" was written in there is not word for re-new, there is only new.

Example:

"New Moon" it is the same "moon" every 30 days, but it starts it's cycle over every 30 days... Again it is not a literal new moon... People misunderstand/don't understand the foresight of Yah, that He knew all that would happen before it did, it's not like He realized one day, oh I messed up, I have to change this, no but rather the physical priesthood and animal sacrifice were a placeholder, "the weak and unprofitable" a thing for the people to "have faith/works in" before Messiah came, but it was the foresight of Messiah, a way for them to understand a need for Him while letting the people have their go a it.

This Psalm explains it so so so perfectly IMO, better than I ever could:

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

"My covenant will stand fast with Him"

"My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie"

If He does not change and He does not lie, how is all the Instructions non-binding?

Man may break covenant with Yah, but as Yah says, "My covenant I will not break". The Hand of Yah is always out offering the same offer that He has always offered to mankind.... however we are in a new age that was spoken of in Scripture:

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "7 For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Yet I am spoken evil of for promoting what the word calls love, but no surprise, for it is written:

Revelation 12:17
English Standard Version
"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Isayah 59:13-15, "In transgressing and lying against Yahweh, and turning away from following our Father, speaking oppression and rebellion, conceiving and uttering from the mind words of falsehood: So judgment is driven backwards, and justice stands far off, for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yes, truth is suppressed; and he who departs from evil is accounted as mad. Yahweh saw this, and it displeased Him that there was no justice."

(some "new moon" verses as talked about above)

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Psalms 81:3, "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day. "

JesusistheChrist · Jan 15, 2015

Ah, what the hell...I'm late already...

Hizikyah said:

Again, this is just another example of poor scholarship on your part. Here is A FULLER CONTEXT of what Peter actually said:

II Peter chapter 3

[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter began this discourse by encouraging his readers to "be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour". We can certainly derive some "names" from that statement alone, can't we? Of course, we can. Furthermore, Peter mentioned "ignorance" TWICE before he mentioned it again in relation to "ignorant and unstable" men, didn't he? Sure, he did. He mentioned those who were "willingly ignorant" in relation to the original "heaven and earth" of Genesis chapter 1...a "heaven and earth" which were greatly altered at the time of Noah's flood. He also encouraged his readers to not be "ignorant" of what had been written in Psalm 90 or namely this:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4)

He then mentioned the promise of "a new heavens and a new earth" or that which Isaiah the prophet had prophesied of:

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (Isaiah 65:17)

IN THIS CONTEXT, THE CONTEXT OF THE WORDS WHICH WERE SPOKEN BEFORE BY THE HOLY PROPHETS AND THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE APOSTLES OF THE LORD, THE WORDS OF MOSES AS RECORDED IN GENESIS, THE WORDS OF THE PSALMIST AS RECORDED IN PSALM 90 AND THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET ISAIAH AS RECORDED IN ISAIAH CHAPTERS 65 & 66, Peter said:

II Peter chapter 3

[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Did you catch that?

You probably didn't.

Paul ALSO wrote about THESE SAME THINGS or the things which THE HOLY PROPHETS, THE OTHER APOSTLES, MOSES, THE PSALMIST AND ISAIAH wrote about that Peter had just been discussing and warning his readers NOT to be "ignorant" of. Again, IN THE SAME MANNER in which people who were UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WRESTED "THE OTHER SCRIPTURES" or THE WRITINGS OF THE HOLY PROPHETS, THE OTHER APOSTLES, MOSES, THE PSALMIST AND ISAIAH, they were ALSO "WRESTING" Paul's writings!

There's your "names"...now go ahead and repent like you said that you would.

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Hizikyah said:

So you typed out some names, I see that....

But I said

Hizikyah said:

Seems you are not going off my question but rather your version of my question, odd.

Last time and im done with this for now, it is unfruitful.

SO yes Peter says people twist all Scripture, but Paul is singled out as hard to understand by those who twist all Scripture...

JesusistheChrist said:

In 2 Peter 3:15-17 Moses is not named, Isayah is not named, the Psalmists is not named, nor are any of the prophets named... so as it is written:

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Karraster · Jan 15, 2015

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

I wouldn't say "odd" exactly..more like "mainstream".

Karraster · Jan 15, 2015

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Atwood said:

My response:

Paul is one of many "examples"..but there is only 1 who we must obey!

People quote Paul so often, because he is the most understood and can easily be made to say whatever suits one's fancy. The words of Messiah...take My yoke upon you and learn of Me...is laid by the wayside too often, for idolizing Paul.

Hizikyah · Jan 15, 2015

Karraster said:

Yeah I think it is a microcosm of much error, bot being able o read what is clearly written without putting ones own spin on it...

The heart is very deceptive, and I don;t exclude myself from possible error, because I KNOW the SECOND I step out side His "fence" (aka His word) I would then be in error, so I seek to bind His word to myself to thus follow His Spirit, Yahweh willing!

HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

haz

Guest

Senior Member

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Banned

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Senior Member

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

JesusistheChrist

Guest

Senior Member

Karraster

Guest

Karraster

Guest

Senior Member