HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

[Hizikyah]

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Do the people that disagree with me believe this passage?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


I just want to confirm I am understanding you.

So you agree that Paul's writing are hard to understand to those not fully learned in the word, and that a effect of
his writing being hard to understand causes some people to fall into Lawlessness*?

*" You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

Peter does not say Paul's writings cause lawlessness.

So in that passage what is the CAUSE of "take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

Is it not that his writing are hard to understand and people that are not learned in the entire word twsits Paul's words into Lawlessness?

Why would Paul's name even be mentioned?

So will you walk me through that passage step by step, line by line? I want to understand where you are coming from, and If you believe im wrong, then show me the way, please.

 

[ChristIsGod]

My issue is mainly with his writing style, it is confusing especially if one is not grounded in the ENTIRE WORD. Paul could recite the fist 5 books by heart, he quoted the "OT" more times than I care to count, and he is the only one singled out IN SCRIPTURE as being "hard to understand"

But if I dont throw caution to the wind reject everything else in Scripture im wrong?.... THIS IS SO CRAZY TO ME.

Quote: "he is the only one singled out IN SCRIPTURE as being "hard to understand" ....

Yes, BUT by WHO?

2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Peter, by saying "other scriptures" is making Paul's writings equivilent to SCRIPTURE and you see 'who' Peter is referring to that have a hard time understanding Paul's Divinely Inspired Words ... it's not the fault of the writer Paul - but according to Peter - it's the fault of the reader.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Man, this is the hardest thread I ever felt led to post to because of the bond between us, Brother. Posting with swollen tear ducts as well.

Please be open - I am a Jew but I have to tell you that you've been exposed to things that "go beyond what is written".

 

[Hizikyah]

Quote: "he is the only one singled out IN SCRIPTURE as being "hard to understand" ....

Yes, BUT by WHO?

2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Peter, by saying "other scriptures" is making Paul's writings equivilent to SCRIPTURE and you see 'who' Peter is referring to that have a hard time understanding Paul's Divinely Inspired Words ... it's not the fault of the writer Paul - but according to Peter - it's the fault of the reader.

OK...

However you slice it, Peter says; "There are some things in them that are hard to understand" and " knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless"

All I see is people quoting Paul saying they do not have to follow the Law of the Most High......

Is it not a combination of Paul's writing s being hard to understand and people twisting them?

He clearly says people twist all Scripture,

but Paul is singled out, if his writing have nothing to do with it why i he singled out. Come on really?

Being misunderstood and turned into Lawlessness...

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

 

[oldthennew]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

to my knowledge Paul was never 'deified' while on this earth -
as we will not be, because there is and was only One who
is Perfect.

if Paul was 'sin-free' after his conversion, then what need would he have of his High Priest?
1Ti.1:15.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

a just weight and balance is what we must strive for - not an easy task!

Paul is definitely one of our heros, but he was only a man, not to be graded,
it is the last thing he would have wanted.

 

[Hizikyah]

Man, this is the hardest thread I ever felt led to post to because of the bond between us, Brother. Posting with swollen tear ducts as well.

Please be open - I am a Jew but I have to tell you that you've been exposed to things that "go beyond what is written".

Im a grafted in Israylite, and I only read Scripture, I read it so throughly that when A Script comes up or a question, that I have to thin out my Sciptual response because people tell me I post too long. I believe He puts this on me. Now I KNOW I still have a tn to learn and I dont know EVERY Scripture off memory, but I am diligent, and I only seek Scripture, have never been a member of a church and very rarely listen to religious teachers, extra biblical shows, seminars, books, sermons, whatever, never do I bind that to myself, only the word of YHWH.

 

[Hizikyah]

How many different men have been blameless in the Law of Yahweh? In the entire history of mankind?

 

[ChristIsGod]

To the oldthennew -

You need to know and then post ALL of Paul's words to understand in what context he called himself the chief of sinners.

Only the way he meant that, is that he killed/persecuted Christians before he was converted by Christ Himself.

To take from Hiz' quotation of Peter .... There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.


The fault is not with him who GOD HIMSELF had chosen -- as he was just as much an Apostle as John was = equal to - but only hard to understand by those that Peter describes/pin-points in this verse by Peter.

 

[oldthennew]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

yes, dear heart,

we know the context.

 

[ChristIsGod]

How many different men have been blameless in the Law of Yahweh? In the entire history of mankind?

Only Peter messed up and Paul had to fix him before all in Galatians 2.

Of the writers of the New Testament - no man can lay any charge against those men that YHWH ordained to SPEAK FOR HIM to every generation until HE RETURNS.

THERE ARE NO ERRORS IN THE WORD PASSED ONTO US!

 

[Hizikyah]

How many different men have been blameless in the Law of Yahweh? In the entire history of mankind?

Only Peter messed up and Paul had to fix him before all in Galatians 2.

Of the writers of the New Testament - no man can lay any charge against those men that YHWH ordained to SPEAK FOR HIM to every generation until HE RETURNS.

THERE ARE NO ERRORS IN THE WORD PASSED ONTO US!

How many different men have been blameless in the Law of Yahweh? In the entire history of mankind?

Only Peter messed up

WHaaaaT? Im logging off for a bit, I was going to soon anyway, but I will take a beak now.


and that is not even what I asked, I asked in the history of mankind how many people were blameless in the Law of Yahweh?

 

[ChristIsGod]

to my knowledge Paul was never 'deified' while on this earth -
as we will not be, because there is and was only One who
is Perfect.

if Paul was 'sin-free' after his conversion, then what need would he have of his High Priest?
1Ti.1:15.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

a just weight and balance is what we must strive for - not an easy task!

Paul is definitely one of our heros, but he was only a man, not to be graded,
it is the last thing he would have wanted.

Paul was as perfect as John the Apostle. And with that, I'm done with this thread. Good Monday to you all.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

what is old wine? what is new wine? TIA

The old wine is the earthly testimony given by Moses and is received by the earthly vessels, the new wine is the new testimony of Jesus Christ which is spiritual; and is only received by those who are made new vessels in Christ.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The old wine is the earthly testimony given by Moses and is received by the earthly vessels, the new wine is the new testimony of Jesus Christ which is spiritual; and is only received by those who are made new vessels in Christ.

Luke 5:37-39[SUP]37 [/SUP]And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

 

[ISeeYou]

to my knowledge Paul was never 'deified' while on this earth -
as we will not be, because there is and was only One who
is Perfect.

if Paul was 'sin-free' after his conversion, then what need would he have of his High Priest?
1Ti.1:15.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

a just weight and balance is what we must strive for - not an easy task!

Paul is definitely one of our heros, but he was only a man, not to be graded,
it is the last thing he would have wanted.

Here Paul speaks on these things (this way) but he really starts here a couple of verses prior

1 Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Heres the context

1 Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious

Even as here...

1Cr 15:9... because I persecuted the church of God.

Notice, "conversion"

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

1Cr 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

So again, in accord with Prov 20:6 Which speaks of this kind of faithfulness Paul is being an example of, Paul likewise says,

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Then compare what he just said there with Prov 20:6

In Phil 3:15 He speaks to "the perfect" how to be minded (as one who counts himself as having not attatined) as he started in verse 12 (concerning himself) and then compare here with what Job said, in Job 9:20 (which is why he couldnt go there) and just top all of it with James 3:2. Its really quite beautiful.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

And in closing I would like to say, that if any man rejects the words of Paul's gospel according to the Spirit of Truth given him by the Lord, they also reject the words of Jesus Christ. And so let the curse be upon them.

Galatians 1:8-9[SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

And in closing I would like to say, that if any man rejects the words of Paul's gospel according to the Spirit of Truth given him by the Lord, they also reject the words of Jesus Christ. And so let the curse be upon them.

Galatians 1:8-9[SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Your right no man should reject the words of Paul, however if somebody takes and treats Paul as teaching a different gospel then what the Lord taught. Then those are the ones that need to be stopped and corrected in the word, as Paul had no authority placed on him to take away from what the Lord said.
What he was commissioned to do was bring the same gospel the Lord taught to the gentiles, and he also was to give more meat of the word. Meaning he was charged to really break it down, and say hey look you know as believers these things can not be part of your life and these things are to be part of your life. He gave lists of what a believer was to abstain from, and he gave lists of what believers are to have in their life.
Then he says if you are still doing any of those things you are not to, and lack any of the others that you are to have then you are illegitimate and not sons.......

Paul tells us that we should not go back to the milk of the word that we already received from the Lord, and should be ready for the meat. Those who believe they can still continue in sins, or as future sins are already covered before committed and confessed are still stuck in the milk of the word or lost......

 

[ISeeYou]

And in closing I would like to say, that if any man rejects the words of Paul's gospel according to the Spirit of Truth given him by the Lord, they also reject the words of Jesus Christ. And so let the curse be upon them.

Galatians 1:8-9[SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul just come right out and says it, whereas John is a tad more discreet

2John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Surely Paul isnt wishing anyone God speed in such a thing.

....If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

 

[kennethcadwell]

Paul just come right out and says it, whereas John is a tad more discreet

2John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Surely Paul isnt wishing anyone God speed in such a thing.

....If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

Which is the same gospel that the Lord taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.......see post #137

 

[ISeeYou]

Which is the same gospel that the Lord taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.......see post #137

Are you saying John and Paul are against the gospels?

Not quite sure what your point is.

Those with the Holy Ghost wouldnt seek to pit the apostles against each other, but its good that these be made manifest as the Lord makes manifest