Homosexual ... and Christian???

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djness

Guest
Wow... are you saying they aren't?

I guess that says a lot about you.
I don't know why you put the .... on the front of my quote. Since it was not there.
And maybe I should have put a comma or something in there but the statement being made was
"You are saying we should treat homosexuals like human being." I can see how you would draw the meaning from that which you apparently got but it was meant in a way that we should be treating with the dignity of other human beings.

Maybe ask though next time instead of trying to insult a person, the text may not always come across especially with the heated nature of the conversation.
 
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So do you want sin to be acceptable to God Laylie?
These people are saying practicing homosexuality is a sin. You are saying we should treat homosexuals like human being.
Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, but he didn't take part in what they did.
Yes, of course we should treat them like human beings, we should treat them exactly the same as we would treat heterosexuals. And you don't have to have sex with anyone, you don't have to take part in what they do, that has nothing to do with treating them with complete respect, fairness, and equality. Also, isn't sin already something that, according to your beliefs, every human is constantly becoming more and more guilty of? Yet you believe he forgives anyways.

You seem to want the loving God without the Judging God and unfortunately he just isn't that way.
Well, I don't believe in god, but actually I just want the loving humanity, without the judging humanity, and unfortunately it's not that way with us as well. True, but we've been getting better and better at loving instead of judging throughout history, it sure is a much better time for racial minorities, women, and homosexuals now, than it was 100 years ago. But as for right now, we can all help create a better future, maybe in 100 more years there will be no discrimination based on sexuality, maybe there will be no hatred for those who are simply different, but harmless.
 
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djness

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Yes, of course we should treat them like human beings, we should treat them exactly the same as we would treat heterosexuals. And you don't have to have sex with anyone, you don't have to take part in what they do, that has nothing to do with treating them with complete respect, fairness, and equality.



Well, I don't believe in god, but actually I just want the loving humanity, without the judging humanity, and unfortunately it's not that way with us as well. True, but we've been getting better and better at loving instead of judging throughout history, it sure is a much better time for racial minorities, women, and homosexuals now, than it was 100 years ago. But as for right now, we can all help create a better future, maybe in 100 more years there will be no discrimination based on sexuality, maybe there will be no hatred for those who are simply different, but harmless.
I feel like in the over all scope of your conversation you are ok with a sin as christians would call it as long as its a harmless sin. Like somone could be a cocaine addict as long as they didn't kill anyone or beat their family or something along those lines. As long as they are not hurting anyone else.

I guess out of curiousity then, do you feel that any an all sexuality should be condoned by us?
Should we as a society step back and say, we have been unfair to pedophiles for instance? That would be the natural progression? And why do you say "different, but harmless?
 
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Thanson1975

Guest
The "..." indicates that it was part of an original quote and is used as common place in newspapers and other blog sites. It is easy to get in a heated debate about this and from what I can tell there is no shortage of feelings on this matter. I know that people that at least reply in complete sentences here are in no means degrading homosexuals to monsters, but on that same note homosexuals (either practicing or not) have felt that Christians have put many many road blocks in place for them. They turn on the news and once a month a bone head from Wichita, KS is protesting a funeral of a solder, and before that was picketing AIDS deaths (even if the victim was not gay).

So they come on a site like this and find a topic like this. On a estimated average, it appears for every 10 comments about how they are pure sinners (not knowing the person) only 1 comes out and says 'Hey, step back. they are not the only sinners on this board.' I have stated what I feel was the interpretation of the Bible on these manners. And the common thread is that people sin when they put anything before God (you can fill in the blank) which applies to Homosexuals as does Heterosexuals. So instead of attacking what makes a person different should we focusing on fixing that we all have in common, and that is sin in general.
 
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Israel

Guest
Jesus didi away with food/dietary restrictions but not restictions on fornication.

Jesus said: Do you not discern and see that whatever goes into a man from the outside cannot make him unhallowed or unclean,
Mark ch 719Since it does not reach and enter his heart but [only his] digestive tract, and so passes on [into the place designed to receive waste]? Thus He was making and declaring all foods [ceremonially] clean [that is, abolishing the ceremonial distinctions of the Levitical Law].

[However lust and fornication are sins of the heart/mind and are not just ceremonial.]

21For from within, [that is] out of the hearts of men, come base and wicked thoughts, sexual immorality, stealing, murder, adultery.

[Homosexuality as well as adultery and heterosexual formication are all impure and sinful]

Read Mark chapter 7 verses 18 to 23

This does not excuse heterosexuals who commit fornication and adultery nor excuse homsexuals because homsexual acts are lusts and fornications outside procreative marriage.

But this also does not mean we should have hatred in our hearts towards others but that we should ourselves avoid such sin.

How would today's society treat Abraham having a child by another? What of Isaac or Jacob? What of Isaiah when he had sex with the prophetess? He was not married.

Do you know what the wife of your youth is?
 
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I feel like in the over all scope of your conversation you are ok with a sin as christians would call it as long as its a harmless sin. Like somone could be a cocaine addict as long as they didn't kill anyone or beat their family or something along those lines. As long as they are not hurting anyone else.
Well, homosexuality isn't like cocaine or other harmful drugs. Homosexuals can lead very happy, very healthy lives with no damage to themselves as well as others. It's not inherently harmful, things like the discrimination, ostracization, and hatred bring up suicide rates, but that would be the fault of society. So it's not only harmless to others, it doesn't harm the self either, assuming society accepts them. The only harm you can claim that is caused to themselves is spiritual harm, which is irrelevant in terms of arguing how they should be treated by us, and the government.

I guess out of curiousity then, do you feel that any an all sexuality should be condoned by us?
Should we as a society step back and say, we have been unfair to pedophiles for instance? That would be the natural progression? And why do you say "different, but harmless?
I feel that anything that doesn't cause harm or suffering should be condoned. It's simple personal freedom and liberty! Pedophilia however, hurts and violates children, it has damaging psychological and emotional effects, they're simply not ready. It's violating the rights of the child who is not old enough to consent to such an activity yet. Therefore it is wrong and should not be condoned.

In summary... Homosexuality and pedophilia aren't comparable. One of them is harmless, and one of them causes children to suffer, there is a big difference.
 
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djness

Guest
The "..." indicates that it was part of an original quote and is used as common place in newspapers and other blog sites. It is easy to get in a heated debate about this and from what I can tell there is no shortage of feelings on this matter. I know that people that at least reply in complete sentences here are in no means degrading homosexuals to monsters, but on that same note homosexuals (either practicing or not) have felt that Christians have put many many road blocks in place for them. They turn on the news and once a month a bone head from Wichita, KS is protesting a funeral of a solder, and before that was picketing AIDS deaths (even if the victim was not gay).

So they come on a site like this and find a topic like this. On a estimated average, it appears for every 10 comments about how they are pure sinners (not knowing the person) only 1 comes out and says 'Hey, step back. they are not the only sinners on this board.' I have stated what I feel was the interpretation of the Bible on these manners. And the common thread is that people sin when they put anything before God (you can fill in the blank) which applies to Homosexuals as does Heterosexuals. So instead of attacking what makes a person different should we focusing on fixing that we all have in common, and that is sin in general.
I agree with the sin in general part. IT does seem like one hot topic sin seems to prevail when we are guilty of quite a large gambit of sins.
 
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Fanatic

Guest
You're right, Faithful_learner. I know people who struggle with homosexuality. if someone has an attraction towards the same sex but chooses God's way and tries to control it then it is no different than a compulsive liar who is trying to get over that struggle. So there is nothing wrong with someone with homosexual desires who wants to follow God. But it is a problem if he doesn't deal with the sin...just as it would be a problem for the compulsive liar not to deal with their sin.
 
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Thanson1975

Guest
How would today's society treat Abraham having a child by another? What of Isaac or Jacob? What of Isaiah when he had sex with the prophetess? He was not married.

Do you know what the wife of your youth is?
Bring up an interesting point and would be a great another topic on the board. How much of the Old Testament would even fly in today (Western Culture)? I mean if a Dad took his son up a hill to be a sacrifice to God would we be as forgiving in a court room?
 
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djness

Guest
Well, homosexuality isn't like cocaine or other harmful drugs. Homosexuals can lead very happy, very healthy lives with no damage to themselves as well as others. It's not inherently harmful, things like the discrimination, ostracization, and hatred bring up suicide rates, but that would be the fault of society. So it's not only harmless to others, it doesn't harm the self either, assuming society accepts them. The only harm you can claim that is caused to themselves is spiritual harm, which is irrelevant in terms of arguing how they should be treated by us, and the government.



I feel that anything that doesn't cause harm or suffering should be condoned. It's simple personal freedom and liberty! Pedophilia however, hurts and violates children, it has damaging psychological and emotional effects, they're simply not ready. It's violating the rights of the child who is not old enough to consent to such an activity yet. Therefore it is wrong and should not be condoned.

In summary... Homosexuality and pedophilia aren't comparable. One of them is harmless, and one of them causes children to suffer, there is a big difference.
Well, its an argument nobody can win if you don't take God into consideration.
What you think is harmless He defines as unholy.
People who are Christian are are going to keep on believing it's wrong, and you are going to keep on believing it is harmlessly acceptable.

Like I said before Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes and all sort of undesireables. Even Gentiles!
But he never condoned what they did. He wanted to SAVE them from what they were doing.
 
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Well, its an argument nobody can win if you don't take God into consideration.
What you think is harmless He defines as unholy.
People who are Christian are are going to keep on believing it's wrong, and you are going to keep on believing it is harmlessly acceptable.
See, this is why I stated the only harm you can claim it causes is spiritual. There simply is no reason other than religion to say these people are doing anything wrong. If it happens to be part of your religion that they're sinning, well that's your personal belief I suppose, however... Since we've established the above, they must be given complete equality under government, meaning that it's wrong to promote anti-gay legislation, or oppose legislation that would bring them closer to equality.

Also, is it possible for something, according to your beliefs obviously, to be harmless AND sinful? Clearly what two men who love each other are doing in their bedroom consensually is harmless, but you believe it is also sinful?

And whether or not one believes it's wrong like yourself, or completely fine like me, can't we all agree on the golden rule here? Treat others as you would like to be treated? That's really all I'm pushing for.
 
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djness

Guest
See, this is why I stated the only harm you can claim it causes is spiritual. There simply is no reason other than religion to say these people are doing anything wrong. If it happens to be part of your religion that they're sinning, well that's your personal belief I suppose, however... Since we've established the above, they must be given complete equality under government, meaning that it's wrong to promote anti-gay legislation, or oppose legislation that would bring them closer to equality.

Also, is it possible for something, according to your beliefs obviously, to be harmless AND sinful? Clearly what two men who love each other are doing in their bedroom consensually is harmless, but you believe it is also sinful?

And whether or not one believes it's wrong like yourself, or completely fine like me, can't we all agree on the golden rule here? Treat others as you would like to be treated? That's really all I'm pushing for.

And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?” What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?”

He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’

” You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

You seem to like the Golden Rule, but you are only exercising the latter half of it. Notice how the first part is so much greater then the second?
 
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And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?” What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?”

He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’

” You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

You seem to like the Golden Rule, but you are only exercising the latter half of it. Notice how the first part is so much greater then the second?
I'm claiming the golden rule as "treat others as you would like to be treated" and nothing more, I'm not trying to stand atop Biblical authority. Although the Bible does say “Thou shalt do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” So I'm not supporting an idea and then being a hypocrite about it. Yes, it is true I'm only concerned with loving my fellow human beings as well as I can, and not at all concerned with loving the god you believe in, think what you will of that. I also believe that loving people should come before someone's dedication to loving their god/religion, if all humans did that, so many people who have been hurt, tortured, discriminated against, hated, and killed, thanks to religious motivations, would have be spared.

That being said, "Love the Lord your God" doesn't mean to treat people worse if they're gay.
 
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djness

Guest
I'm claiming the golden rule as "treat others as you would like to be treated" and nothing more, I'm not trying to stand atop Biblical authority. Although the Bible does say “Thou shalt do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” So I'm not supporting an idea and then being a hypocrite about it. Yes, it is true I'm only concerned with loving my fellow human beings as well as I can, and not at all concerned with loving the god you believe in, think what you will of that. I also believe that loving people should come before someone's dedication to loving their god/religion, if all humans did that, so many people who have been hurt, tortured, discriminated against, hated, and killed, thanks to religious motivations, would have be spared.

That being said, "Love the Lord your God" doesn't mean to treat people worse if they're gay.
Well as long as you take God out of the picture you will always be right. But thats pretty much the story since Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

Do you believe that you would have come up with the idea to love others without it coming from the bible? If that were possible.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
 
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Well as long as you take God out of the picture you will always be right. But thats pretty much the story since Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
I have a pretty simple definition of what I consider right and wrong, that definition doesn't change on a whim. If I act selfishly or hurt another person, which obviously as a human, I do from time to time, I know I've done wrong. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting but it sounds like you're saying that I just decide what's right and wrong so that I'm always right... If so, strongly disagree.

Do you believe that you would have come up with the idea to love others without it coming from the bible? If that were possible.
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
I certainly do, as my inspiration to love others comes from two things, neither of which are related to the Bible. The people in my life who loved me first, and the natural emotions/empathy/chemistry all humans (other than those with an extremely rare neurological disorder) possess. Also, quoting the scripture saying that, doesn't mean everyone's love is from god, and if it is, then I suppose the homosexual's love for their long term partner comes from god too?

I fear this thread has become too much of a PM conversation between djness and I about irrelevant things, is it possible we may be able to steer it back on track?
 
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djness

Guest
I have a pretty simple definition of what I consider right and wrong, that definition doesn't change on a whim. If I act selfishly or hurt another person, which obviously as a human, I do from time to time, I know I've done wrong. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting but it sounds like you're saying that I just decide what's right and wrong so that I'm always right... If so, strongly disagree.



I certainly do, as my inspiration to love others comes from two things, neither of which are related to the Bible. The people in my life who loved me first, and the natural emotions/empathy/chemistry all humans (other than those with an extremely rare neurological disorder) possess. Also, quoting the scripture saying that, doesn't mean everyone's love is from god, and if it is, then I suppose the homosexual's love for their long term partner comes from god too?

I fear this thread has become too much of a PM conversation between djness and I about irrelevant things, is it possible we may be able to steer it back on track?
I don't think it is irrelevant it's just not in agreement with you, but I'll finish up and let anyone have their say.
As to the point of the original poster, practicing any sin and trying to use scripture to show that it is in fact allowable is obviously not what is according to God.
 
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I don't think it is irrelevant it's just not in agreement with you, but I'll finish up and let anyone have their say.
As to the point of the original poster, practicing any sin and trying to use scripture to show that it is in fact allowable is obviously not what is according to God.
Well, I'll finish up and say that no matter what your beliefs on, and interpretation of the Bible is, your personal treatment of gay people should not be lacking compared to your treatment of anyone else. That's all I want to establish, not have an argument about philosophical topics.

And I don't avoid topics because I don't find them agreeable, I'd responded to your questions about me personally several times, and had to refute a few rather condescending assumptions you made about me. It was getting very off-topic, please PM next time you wish to learn about such a variety of personal thought. I'd be glad to chat outside of a topic that has a specific purpose.
 
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Broern

Guest
In the beginning God created only Adam.He is never a man or a woman albeit a homosexual. The Bible never mention God touch the sexual organ of Adam and therefore conclude Adam was a man from his creation. The woman was taken from Adam's rib and was given a woman's sexual organ. The Bible is absolute truth and the only truth. The sex of any human being is determine by the sex organ. The truth is in the sex organ but the fact is homosexual pervert what God provides them because of their lust of the flesh and the eyes. The truth against the fact are different. The fact is homosexual are all around us. The truth is homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God.The truth is God wants all to be save. The fact is many people including homosexuals do not obey God's word and accept the love offered by God.
 
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Marionette

Guest
Well I have browsed through some of the comments here, and despite the fear of perhaps re-stating what someone else has already written here goes.

From a logical stand point, and agreeing with Broern on this very simple concept is, the man parts were made for the woman parts and visa versa. Sex has basically one purpose and that is to reproduce. Two men cannot reproduce, nor can two women. I think this generally can be agreed with, shutting out all other applications/implications of sex. Woman for man, man for woman. I think it can also be agreed that homosexuality is a sin. One sin, among many. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but, sin, is sin, is sin, is sin, and at that, we've all sinned, and probably a majority of us on a daily basis.

I do not really believe any sin is greater or lesser than any other, a white lie for example is just as bad as any other lie, whether it be purple, blue, or green. A lie is a lie. Fornication I think can be seen in the same light, I don't care who it is with, fornication is fornication. Do I believe everyone who has ever fornicated or told a lie is going to hell? Personally, I do not. Yes some people are farther in their walk with God than others, but I don't think it's our place to question their salvation. A good deal of Christians have backslid at some point, please don't take this as I am condoning sin, or making excuses, but it is our job to try to live as Jesus did, but I would reach to say that the majority of the population has a rather hard time with that. Also has demonstrated so many times in the Bible, as well as said, God will meet you wherever you are in life, and work with you. Now, I don't believe in being told that our churches cannot preach against homosexuality, I do believe they need deliverance, but there's a lot of us who know God that need deliverance from something. It is pretty cut and dry on how salvation comes about, and from there, obedience spawned by simply loving the Lord.

Now with the previous statement that sin is sin is sin, I will use myself as an example. Addiction of any kind is a sin, smoking is a sin. I am a smoker. I am a sinner, not just for smoking but just as an example here. I have been praying for help and deliverance of the addiction. I am still smoking. I don't think I cannot walk with God, or pray, or hear Him because I smoke. I also don't believe anyone has the right to judge me or my salvation because I smoke.

Back to sin is sin is sin. Many of us sin on a daily basis without even thinking about it. We are, as Christians supposed to guard our thoughts are we not? And how many of us every day think something bad about someone else, even if its something as simple as the person who just cut us off in traffic. That bad thought alone is a sin. How many people do you think sin every day without knowing that it is a sin, that are Christians? Just using this stuff as examples.. I guess I just sit where yes, I know it is a sin, it is something that should be made aware of, everyone has sinned, if not sinning now, and who am I to say someone cannot be saved because of it? Our God is a loving God, and a forgiving God, granted you have to admit what you are doing is wrong and ask for that forgiveness, followed by repentance, but you don't know where they are in their life. Instead of judging, have faith that God is working with them, that God loves them, and pray that their hearts and minds are open to what He has to say.
 
Here's the problem so many people have with the Bible, God's Word Does not Change."For I am the LORD, I do not change; " Malachi 3:6a. So if the Bible states in the Old Testament, that homosexuality is a sin, then it's a sin today (and several people have already referenced several verses in Lev. that I'm not going to point them out). It doesn't matter what we think, but what God thinks. What does matter on our part is how we treat people who are homosexuals, meaning that we should be treated someone who's gay like they are a person, because they are. Yet at the same time, we have to be clear upon our stance when it comes to homosexuality. Should we avoid them on the streets, no. But should we give them the right to marry? Not unless we also give murderers the right to kill, adulterers the right to commit adultery, and people the right to change God's law.
I do not dispute that God's word does not change. I wasn't saying it was not a sin, I was just asking what was wrong with a homosexual turning to God and not doing what is unholy and dishonourable to himself!

I have a few friends who are homosexual/bi-sexual and one of them has turned to God.