Homosexual ... and Christian???

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jimmydiggs

Guest
It seems that the root of the problem is that many Christians would rather listen to the Bible than use their own moral reasoning because they believe that God's word is through the bible. So no matter what Laylie or other pro-homosexuals posts some Christians will never be able to see homosexuality as acceptable.
Humans have been using "their own" moral reasoning for quite some time now. Look at all the great and wonderful things that have been done.

Personally, I think that homosexuals should be treated the same as any other person. Their homosexuality is not chosen and cannot be changed. Even if they did choose it, it still would not be wrong because they both consent and that's what makes them happy.
What if we were to discover that a person doesn't chose to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile? What if we discover that it's almost entirely in the genetics of the person? Do we say, "welp, my social conditioning and evolutionarily pre-concieved notions about morality have caused me to not like this!" Do we just ignore the conflict in our reasoning? The absolute lack of consistant application? What if the rapist receives the greatest amount of happiness, and it counter-acts all unhappiness? Does that make it moral?

Let alone the fact that these are all opinions. As a result, they are non-binding.

If there is a God and his moral code is "perfect" why would he think that homosexuality in itself is wrong if it harmed no one. Why does it taint the spirit? It seems to me that the idea that homosexuality is a sin was created because it was socially unacceptable to be homosexual.
There are a lot of things that are sinful, but don't harm anyone.

Gluttony
Pride
Lust
Fornication
Theft (unless someone is hurt of course)

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkcZ9ZSI5o[/video]
 
Apr 24, 2011
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What if we were to discover that a person doesn't chose to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile? What if we discover that it's almost entirely in the genetics of the person? Do we say, "welp, my social conditioning and evolutionarily pre-concieved notions about morality have caused me to not like this!" Do we just ignore the conflict in our reasoning? The absolute lack of consistant application? What if the rapist receives the greatest amount of happiness, and it counter-acts all unhappiness? Does that make it moral?
How many times must we use the same broken arguments over and over again... I've explained this multiple times in this thread already. Rape, murder, and pedophilia all hurt and violate other people, there's a practical and absolutely obvious reason those three things are horrid acts if which we allowed in society, no one would be safe. With homosexuality however, the only way to claim that it's wrong is with the Bible.

Humans have been using "their own" moral reasoning for quite some time now. Look at all the great and wonderful things that have been done.
Well, slavery has been abolished, women are equal to men, racism is still existent but at an all-time low, more governments give their people basic human rights... I consider all of these things great and wonderful, I would love to keep going down this great and wonderful path until all people (including homosexuals) have equality and freedom, and humanity grows out of using violence to solve problems. At least we share the second goal.


There are a lot of things that are sinful, but don't harm anyone.
Gluttony
Pride
Lust
Fornication
Theft (unless someone is hurt of course)
Well, gluttony and pride do show a disregard for other people and an inflated sense of self-importance, that's why we thing of these things negatively, of course we wouldn't say that prideful people can't get married though. As for theft, I would say that it does hurt whoever you're stealing from. Not to their physical self, but it has a harmful effect on them, that and if we allowed theft in society, there would be huge problems, so we can rationally explain why theft is wrong.

Care to share your views on the topic? I'm genuinely a bit curious as to whether or not you think a homosexual can be a Christian.
 
May 23, 2011
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I'm lacking motivation to respond to all of your responses Jimmy but I do believe that we live in a amoral world and yes your probably correct that I shouldn't have a moral choice in this situation if its true but I like to give in to this moral 'desire'. Also living in society is easier and more pleasurable to me with having morals.

I don't understand you and Dr. Craig. You can see pretty well than the majority of Christians of these views but both of you are Christian. Could you tell me your reasoning to being Christian rather than a amoral athiest? I'm curious.
 
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I'm lacking motivation to all of your responses Jimmy but I do believe that we live in amoral world and yes your probably correct that I shouldn't have a moral choice in this situation if its true but I like to give in to this moral 'desire'. Also living in society is easier and more pleasurable to me with having morals.

I don't understand you and Dr. Craig. You can see pretty well than the majority of Christians of these views but both of you are Christian. Could you tell me your reasoning to being Christian rather than a amoral athiest? I'm curious.
FallingAlex,
We have experienced God; there is no created thing that can undo the changes that that has done to us.

How many times must we use the same broken arguments over and over again... I've explained this multiple times in this thread already. Rape, murder, and pedophilia all hurt and violate other people, there's a practical and absolutely obvious reason those three things are horrid acts if which we allowed in society, no one would be safe. With homosexuality however, the only way to claim that it's wrong is with the Bible.
You've already been given a thorough rebuttal (as to this statement of yours); yet, you have chosen not to acknowledge it -- do you not have an answer? Please do give it, if you do.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
How many times must we use the same broken arguments over and over again...
Broken? They seem rather coherent to me.

I've explained this multiple times in this thread already.
I apologize, I didn't bother to read anything in this thread as nothing was appearing to be important until now.


Rape, murder, and pedophilia all hurt and violate other people, there's a practical and absolutely obvious reason those three things are horrid acts if which we allowed in society, no one would be safe.
What are the pratical and absolutely obvious reasons? I don't see them, so apparently they aren't so obvious.


With homosexuality however, the only way to claim that it's wrong is with the Bible.
Might wanna check into what is known as "Natural Law".

The only way to claim anything is wrong in a moral or ethical sense is if there is some sort of transcendental universal objective standard. These wrongs and rights have to exist as an essential part of the nature of the action in question. Perceptions don't change the nature of an act. In an amoral world (such as one predicated by atheism) perceiving an action to be morally or ethically wrong is a false statement about what is true(in an amoral world).



Well, slavery has been abolished, women are equal to men, racism is still existent but at an all-time low, more governments give their people basic human rights... I consider all of these things great and wonderful, I would love to keep going down this great and wonderful path until all people (including homosexuals) have equality and freedom, and humanity grows out of using violence to solve problems. At least we share the second goal.
What does any of this matter in an amoral universe? Even FallingAlex seems to recognzie the inconsistancy.


Falling Alex said:
I'm lacking motivation to respond to all of your responses Jimmy but I do believe that we live in a amoral world and yes your probably correct that I shouldn't have a moral choice in this situation if its true but I like to give in to this moral 'desire'. Also living in society is easier and more pleasurable to me with having morals.


Well, gluttony and pride do show a disregard for other people and an inflated sense of self-importance, that's why we thing of these things negatively, of course we wouldn't say that prideful people can't get married though.
Anything harmful about it?

As for theft, I would say that it does hurt whoever you're stealing from. Not to their physical self, but it has a harmful effect on them, that and if we allowed theft in society, there would be huge problems, so we can rationally explain why theft is wrong.
You've not demonstrated the nature of the act is moral or immoral, but rather unuseful in a society that has certain goals. A sort of Utilitiarianism.

Care to share your views on the topic? I'm genuinely a bit curious as to whether or not you think a homosexual can be a Christian.
Sure.


One thing I need to clarify on. Sodomy is how I refer to the acts themselves. Hopefuly I don't have to expand on what said acts are. I think we all understand that very well.


1) I believe Sodomy is sinful.
2) I believe homosexual lusts to be sinful.
b.as well as heterosexual lusts
3) I believe a person can have SSA, and still be Christian.(based on other pre-requisites)
a. Just as a person can have a tendency toward any other sin, and still be Christian.
4) I also believe a person can, and should strive for overcoming all sin. Jesus sure seems to think we should. (John 8:11)


When someone says to me, "Hey Dustin, I'm a homosexual." My face isn't...








Also, this post might be of interest to you.

http://christianchat.com/christian-young-adults-forum/15781-gay-christian-15.html#post407247 <--- click


In the process of finding it, I ran accross your Uganda thread. I would probably be more inclided to agree with the gray on this map.. It comes from wikipedia, and grey are areas that homosexual acts (sodomy) are legal, but civil unions are not recognized.




However, if you want to know how I view the role of government pertaining to issues like this, might wanna check out Ron Paul...


My reasoning is simple.

1) Establish system by which some sort of penalty can be brought on those who adhere to some kind of lifestyle I don't agree with.
2) lose power
3) those who had said lifestyle get power
4) Oh noes, pain and suffering for me!
5) avoid 1) thus, nullifying the rest.

Paul 2012!


In an ideal world, I don't have a problem with anarchy or communism;communism would require some tweaking to accomodate christianity, such as not burning down churches and such.


I'm ranting now, but I figured I'd cover some possible future questions on the issue.
 
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I'll respond more thoroughly when I get the time tomorrow (working this summer) but for now I just wanted to point out how in general, the most civilized, educated, and nicest places on the Earth learn towards blue, whereas the worst areas go towards orange/red. Also, proud to live in a dark blue nation :)
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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I'll respond more thoroughly when I get the time tomorrow (working this summer) but for now I just wanted to point out how in general, the most civilized, educated, and nicest places on the Earth learn towards blue, whereas the worst areas go towards orange/red. Also, proud to live in a dark blue nation :)
Laylie, the simple truth in Jesus is..
That it is not where you live now, but the love known in Jesus that desires to see you and all others live!
Not in the few moments of this day, but in the precious eternal life this is for all that call upon and follow Jesus.
In the world all you debate here is what the world is willing and wants.
You cannot argue what all that Love and accept Jesus and hope for you and all will seek and recieve in Jesus.
True compassion in Jesus looks to that which is eternal, for the time known now in the world is but a blink of the eyes compared to what is given in Jesus Christ is Lord.
You speak of a broken record, but that is the issue, that everything you know now is and will be broken, end.
That is why all that believe and love in Jesus will not compramise, for it is about the perfect love and eternal life in Jesus that we are witnessing for here.
Do not confuse disaproval with hate or rejection.
For no greater and perfect love exsists than that which is known and given in Jesus!
My prayers are with you and all, that you will one day choose and recieve Jesus.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles
 
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djness

Guest
NOT SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN TO READ

Different HIV Rates Among Gay Men And Straight People Not Fully Explained By Sexual Behavior

ScienceDaily (Sep. 14, 2007) &#8212; Differences in sexual behaviours do not fully explain why the US HIV epidemic affects gay men so much more than straight men and women, claims research published ahead of print in the journal Sexually Transmitted Infections.
In 2005, over half of new HIV infections diagnosed in the US were among gay men, and up to one in five gay men living in cities is thought to be HIV positive.
Yet two large population surveys showed that most gay men had similar numbers of unprotected sexual partners per year as straight men and women.
US researchers applied a series of carefully calculated equations in different scenarios to study the rate at which HIV infection has spread among gay men and straight men and women.
They used figures taken from two national surveys to estimate how many sex partners gay men and straight men and women have, and what proportion of gay men have insertive or receptive anal sex, or both.
They then set these figures against accepted estimates of how easily HIV is transmitted by vaginal and anal sex to calculate the size of the HIV epidemic in gay men and straight men and women.
The results showed that for the straight US population to experience an epidemic of HIV infection as great as that of gay men, they would need to average almost five unprotected sexual partners every year.
This is a rate almost three times that of gay men.
But to end the HIV epidemic, gay men would need to have rates of unprotected sex several times lower than those currently evident among the straight population. This is because transmission rates are higher for anal sex than they are for vaginal sex, say the authors.
But "role versatility," whereby people adopt both "insertive" and "receptive roles," also plays a part, they add.
A gay man can be easily infected through unprotected receptive sex, and then infect someone else through insertive sex.
Gay men are therefore far more susceptible to the spread of the virus through the population, even with the same numbers of unprotected sexual partners.


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Gay HIV rate set to be highest ever | Express Online Gay HIV rate set to be highest ever

Posted on 04 March 2011. Tags: HIV/AIDS, New Zealand AIDS Foundation, safe sex

The latest HIV figures from the AIDS Epidemiology Group (AEG) at the University of Otago are on track to make 2010 the worst year on record for men who have sex with men&#8217;s (MSM) HIV diagnoses.
Shaun Robinson, the newly appointed executive director of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF) says the organisation is &#8220;quite prepared to be bold&#8221; in promising an immediate and effective response to the figures. He says the alarming trend of increasing HIV infections among MSM should serve as a &#8220;clarion call to the gay and bisexual community&#8221;.
The figures, released by the AEG last week, show that there were 90 new HIV diagnoses for gay and bisexual men in 2010. The record number of diagnoses for MSM was 93 in 2008.
Robinson says, &#8220;This epidemic has never been worse in New Zealand for gay and bisexual men. In addition to the 90 gay and bisexual men that we know about, there are another 15 men for whom the method of HIV transmission is unknown. It&#8217;s highly likely that most of them will be [MSM], which means that this will be the worst year on record. It&#8217;s really starkly clear that the epidemic among gay and bisexual men has been staging a major comeback since around 2000.&#8221;
Robinson continues, &#8220;The epidemic is very cunning. Viruses in particular almost behave like an intelligent enemy &#8211; they mutate, they&#8217;re very opportunistic and take advantage of the weak points in the social terrain and that&#8217;s what they&#8217;ve done.&#8221;
Research shows that gay men&#8217;s communities in New Zealand have very high rates of condom use. However, Robinson says maintaining this rate is no longer enough and only increased rates of condom use will reduce HIV diagnoses for gay and bisexual men.
&#8220;We have nearly 70pc of gay and bisexual men using condoms 100pc of the time with casual partners, but clearly in this environment that&#8217;s not enough. We are going to put every resource we have behind driving HIV rates down but we can&#8217;t do it alone and we can&#8217;t do it overnight. We need to get to a situation where wearing a condom is the social norm and you stand out if you don&#8217;t. That will be the tipping point.&#8221;
HIV testing will also remain critical if New Zealand is to control the HIV epidemic.
&#8220;A large proportion were not diagnosed with HIV until their infection was past the point when treatment should have begun,&#8221; says Robinson. &#8220;These men may have had HIV and been sexually active for a long time before they were diagnosed which means they missed out on effective treatment and they were also likely to be more infectious. This situation could have been avoided by regular HIV testing &#8211; which is both free and easy.&#8221;
The best estimate of the number of people living with HIV in New Zealand in 2010 is 1800. Robinson says, &#8220;That&#8217;s 1800 people &#8211; the majority of whom are gay and bisexual men &#8211; who have been needlessly infected.
&#8220;If there&#8217;s anything good that comes out of this year&#8217;s figures, it&#8217;s the very clear message &#8211; we cannot ignore this. The message we want to get out there is a mixture of a wake up call, a call to action and hope &#8211; we&#8217;ve got to do something, we know what we&#8217;ve got to do and it will work. We can actually beat this epidemic if we work together.&#8221;


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Morality COMPLETELY ASIDE. How is this still harmless? How is this not hurting anyone at all?

Edit:I removed one line from the second story because it was to blunt as the author states in the line.
 
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dmdave17

Guest
Guys!

We are all approaching this subject from the wrong perspective. There are two things we are actually talking about; (1) having the urge to have sexual relations with a member of our own sex, and (2) having sex with someone of the same gender. As Christians, we shouldn't be saying that the urge to have gay sex is a sin. Rather, having gay sex is a sin!

If you had an urge to kill someone, you would be expected to reject that urge. If you had the urge to hurt someone in some other manner, you would try to overcome it. All people are tempted to sin. Nobody denies that. All of us succumb to temptation at various times; that is also a fact. But to say that a sin is not a sin; that is where we get into trouble.

If you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, you cannot ignore these passages, "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27) (Can you say "a-i-d-s"?) Or, "Although they know God&#8217;s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)

I believe that God loves all human beings. He longs to forgive everyone of their sins. But salvation is a two-sided transaction. (1) acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and (2) repentance. Repentance assumes that, while we may continue to be tempted by a particular sin, we strive to overcome it out of love, and fear, for the Lord. As such, I believe that a practicing homosexual person cannot be a true Christian.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Guys!

We are all approaching this subject from the wrong perspective. There are two things we are actually talking about; (1) having the urge to have sexual relations with a member of our own sex, and (2) having sex with someone of the same gender. As Christians, we shouldn't be saying that the urge to have gay sex is a sin. Rather, having gay sex is a sin!

If you had an urge to kill someone, you would be expected to reject that urge. If you had the urge to hurt someone in some other manner, you would try to overcome it. All people are tempted to sin. Nobody denies that. All of us succumb to temptation at various times; that is also a fact. But to say that a sin is not a sin; that is where we get into trouble.

If you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, you cannot ignore these passages, "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27) (Can you say "a-i-d-s"?) Or, "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)

I believe that God loves all human beings. He longs to forgive everyone of their sins. But salvation is a two-sided transaction. (1) acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and (2) repentance. Repentance assumes that, while we may continue to be tempted by a particular sin, we strive to overcome it out of love, and fear, for the Lord. As such, I believe that a practicing homosexual person cannot be a true Christian.
Actually, we share the same sentiment.
 
B

Broern

Guest
Homosexuality is lust of the flesh the same as drunkards, cigarette smokers, drug addicts, etc. God created a man name Adam and a woman named Eve. When a child is born, they either had a pennies or a vagina. Homosexuality is acquired after birth. Drug addiction, etc., is also acquired after birth.

The Bible is absolute saying homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God. Homosexuals have their "will" either to obey or disobey God. If homosexuals can serve God, why not drug addicts.

God love the drug addicts and homosexuals. But do they love God?
We love the drug addicts and homosexuals. But do they hear and obey God's word?
 
F

Fidelis

Guest
Guys!

We are all approaching this subject from the wrong perspective. There are two things we are actually talking about; (1) having the urge to have sexual relations with a member of our own sex, and (2) having sex with someone of the same gender. As Christians, we shouldn't be saying that the urge to have gay sex is a sin. Rather, having gay sex is a sin!

If you had an urge to kill someone, you would be expected to reject that urge. If you had the urge to hurt someone in some other manner, you would try to overcome it. All people are tempted to sin. Nobody denies that. All of us succumb to temptation at various times; that is also a fact. But to say that a sin is not a sin; that is where we get into trouble.

If you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, you cannot ignore these passages, "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27) (Can you say "a-i-d-s"?) Or, "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." (Romans 1:32)

I believe that God loves all human beings. He longs to forgive everyone of their sins. But salvation is a two-sided transaction. (1) acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and (2) repentance. Repentance assumes that, while we may continue to be tempted by a particular sin, we strive to overcome it out of love, and fear, for the Lord. As such, I believe that a practicing homosexual person cannot be a true Christian.
Are you saying that aids is God's penalty for homosexuality?? That's sickening.
Maybe you should try to do research before you are saying any more stupid things. Aids got into humans because of apes. The virus started in apes and because of people eating them, humans got sick. Afterwards, it could have spread via man to woman, and not necessarily man to man.