Honest Assessment of Tongues

[Willie-T]

How about the word "THEM" and how it is only applicable unto THEM and not US!

But, WE are part of THEM that believe.

 

[LT]

You said



So you added paul was sick and thats why you are claiming he needed to be healed.




Its not a complaint, just pointing out, wrong teaching. And sharing the truth with you and any others.




Once again you are adding something I never said. You need to learn to quote people properly. it would save a lot of confusion.

You said

in regard to Pauls healing or denial of Pauls healing.
So you tell me what that plan was?




Yes Paul pleaded but Paul never pleaded for healing its not in there anywhere.



Yes it was in there when you claimed Paul was sick. He was not.



Really you class "believe" and "will power the same? I dont so please dont cross ref them when quoting me.

I said "infirmity" which includes sickness, handicap, and interpersonal issues... which is in line with the phrase "thorn in my flesh". I did not call Paul "sick", but that Paul requested healing, whether physical, emotional, or otherwise. He had a thorn, and needed it removed. God said no. Healing was denied (whether physical, emotional or spiritual). Paul's faith is not in question.

Therefore: Having faith does not necessitate healing,
because God's Will, Plan, and Purpose supercedes our own will.

I did not "class" will power and believe as the same. You described "believe" in a way that willpower operates, and I called you out on it.
God is not required to operate upon a persons claims, no matter how hard they "believe" in them. That is not one of the Promises of God, but merely a promise of the WOF movement. It is false teaching.

 

[LT]

But, WE are part of THEM that believe.

It is very rare, but I actually side with the historical/grammatical interpretation on this one.
He was not speaking to the Church, but to the 12.
I am not confident that we can claim the authority of this verse as something to grasp for ourselves,
but also agree that these things DO follow the Church as a whole... though not to each part individually (as in us as individuals within the Church).

 

[LT]

No actually people want to disregard the words cease, vanish away and fail as applied to specific gifts as found in 1st Corinthians 13!

But has knowledge ceased also? I would hold less conviction on this point. It is not the strongest.
If completeness is the completion of the Bible, then what is the end of knowledge? It just doesn't fit.
Completion is when Christ restores all things on the Last Day... especially as it refers to us seeing Him face-to-face right within the text.
Cessationism can not use that passage as a proof. It's just not there, but fabricated.

 

[dcontroversal]

But has knowledge ceased also? I would hold less conviction on this point. It is not the strongest.
If completeness is the completion of the Bible, then what is the end of knowledge? It just doesn't fit.
Completion is when Christ restores all things on the Last Day... especially as it refers to us seeing Him face-to-face right within the text.
Cessationism can not use that passage as a proof. It's just not there, but fabricated.

The impartation of super natural knowledge has ceased with the completion of the bible as that is all that is needed...the faith has been once delivered unto the saints...the faith being the system of teaching that is found in the bible...there is no new revelation and the context as well as history supports this view.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Doesn't matter what your opinion of me is . . . I'm sure you know the huge differences and separation between men and women in the Middle East and we do have to understand the culture of the times.

God doesn't see me as a "woman" but he sees me as a member in the body of Christ. But then again you pulled the "woman" thing out in relationship to speaking in tongues . . . I also believe in the specific context of the subject, it says: . . . v34b . . . but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law - I don't believe that I am under the law. I also think that scripture says - Forbid not to speak in tongues.

At the end of the day there is no practical application from tongues in a New Testament church today....none...zero...nada....The pastor/preacher is to proclaim the truth, we believe the truth and apply the truth...there is absolutely NO PURPOSE FOR TONGUES in the Lord's Churches.....I am assuming you speak English...how many NON English speaking people do you have in your church that cannot understand the message that comes from who ever it is that pastors your church?

NO PURPOSE......In the day the bible was being given and penned there were numerous languages spoken in the known world, no real schools, no real colleges and it was difficult for people to understand each other and there was a purpose.....today there is NONE, other than SELF edification, pride and self exaltation!

 

[BarlyGurl]

1Cor 14:4, I don't know dc, maybe you are just really spiritual but I happen to NEED to be edified in my spirit sometimes... and this is what the scripture prescribes.

 

[Is]

I'm not going to bother posting scripture when there are myriads of pages of threads here on the subject already. with every scripture there is in the Bible on this subject

Tongues was not and is not now a sign for unbelieving Israel.

That's a new twist. I have not heard that one before, but thanks for not being rude like someone else here.

Tongues was not and is not now a sign for unbelieving Israel.

I agree that tongues is not "now" a sign for unbelieving Israel, but, you need to read Acts 2:5-37

For the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom. 1Cor.1:22

 

[Saint-John]

My oh my how people misuse scripture when talking from a viewpoint of NOT HAVING the signs following , you cant have them because your a wannabe , just submit to his will and it WILL happen to us and them !!!!

as for taring a page out of the bible because it dosnt suit you or your religion ! oh yes way to go..!!!

read it .. hes warning his disciples..false believers in God crucified him..DONT JUST TAKE THEIR WORD THEY ARE GODS..they WILL HAVE (ALL) THESE signs..cant get them without me !!!(Holy Spirit)

MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; ...
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather

IN the church only three max..corresponding interpret, then 2 or 3 gifts of prophecy...your church is run this way ..isnt it !!?

tongues is private spiritual prayer to GOD DIRECT..undifilable.. not mans languages..

ACTs how did they KNOW they received the HOLY GHOST..remember Simon the con artist..if it was just a smile or sign a card or say confess Jesus etc he could easily con people ( as they do today !!) but he would pay money..for something real !!
why argue and kick against what is freely available to all who would be saved ..repent from your religious nonsense.turn too God with an acceptable humble attitude, and show him your willing..by DOING what he then asks..to be baptized (act of obedience ..full immersion ) and ask to recieve the holy ghost...without which you are non of his rom 8v9...this is eternal life you playing with..!

 

[Dan_473]

You might want to have a look Here...

Yahweh Shalom

textual criticism can get complicated real fast...

for me, it's enough that almost all people who make a career out of studying nt history, and hold positions of leadership in that field, say that the longer ending wasn't in the original...

 

[Dan_473]

According to modern scholarship Sinaiticus Aleph and Vitcanus B do not agree with the Majority of manuscripts. Not only do they disagree with the Majority of manuscripts, they do not agree with each other.

The 8,000 changes in B and the 9,000 changes in Aleph are not the same changes. When their changes are added together, they alter the Majority text in 13,000 places, This is two changes for every verse. Together they omit 4,000 words, and add 2,000, transpose 3,500, and modify 2000.

There are 88 Greek papyri Manuscripts. Most papyri consist of small fragments and do not have much text. Of the 88, only an estimated thirteen (15%) support B and Aleph which support the new radical texts. From a span from 1550 to 1624 Elzevir differed from Stephens in Mark only 19 times. B differs with Aleph 652 times in the Gospel of Mark, and with another uncial Manuscript (D) in 1,944 places. There is only a total of 287 variants from Stephen's 1550 work to the Elzevir brothers' work of 1624. These differences are almot negligible because they are all spelling. The issue is whether you spell "colour" or "color".

Vaticanus B leaves out the Book of Revelation "Mystery Babylon the Great", "the seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman (harlot) sits", "the woman is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth" What organized religious group would like to have such telling passages left out?

Hoskier detalied and discussed the error in Codex Aleph, Sinciticus Aleph and Vaitcanus B and found they differed in the Gospels alone 3,036 times, not including minor errors such as spelling or synonym departures.

(Herman C. Hoskier, Codex B and its Allies, A study and an Indictment, 2 Vols., London: Bernard Quaritch, Ltd., 1914, Vol. II, p, 1.)

And these are "the best and most reliable"?


Feed: The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark by John William Burgon

You can read the book on line.

yes, it gets real complicated...

both Nestle/Aland and the SBL nt agree that it's probably not there... they have a lot more resources and time to study the question...

so, I'm left with choices:

agree with them,

or

charge them with being part of a larger conspiracy.



I choose the first one...

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The impartation of super natural knowledge has ceased with the completion of the bible as that is all that is needed...the faith has been once delivered unto the saints...the faith being the system of teaching that is found in the bible...there is no new revelation and the context as well as history supports this view.......

Does God talk to you? Does God give you information concerning certain situations maybe you are in or someone you may be counseling? That would be word of knowledge [super natural knowledge] and/or word of wisdom.

Word of knowledge is NOT new revelation; it is there for God to lead you or direct you. Every situation that WE find ourselves in PERSONALLY may not be clear to us in scripture so God does talk to us TODAY and we need him to lead us TODAY.

dcontroversal : At the end of the day there is no practical application from tongues in a New Testament church today....none...zero...nada....The pastor/preacher is to proclaim the truth, we believe the truth and apply the truth...there is absolutely NO PURPOSE FOR TONGUES in the Lord's Churches.....I am assuming you speak English...how many NON English speaking people do you have in your church that cannot understand the message that comes from who ever it is that pastors your church?

NO PURPOSE......In the day the bible was being given and penned there were numerous languages spoken in the known world, no real schools, no real colleges and it was difficult for people to understand each other and there was a purpose.....today there is NONE, other than SELF edification, pride and self exaltation!

Speaking in tongues is not for "foreign" speaking people to understand - for when someone speaks in tongues they don't know "what language" that will come forth; tongues is not a "prepared" speech - When in a group of believers, it should be interpreted and will be words of edification for the people present - In individual prayer and/or praise to God; it spiritually edifies/builds up the believer - so we can't say there is NO purpose whatsoever. And God placed this context of scripture within his word so that we would not be ignorant of spiritual matters [pneumatikos].

Now as for "pride" and "self exaltation" - nope, nada, none - pure and simple - it is praising, extoling God. . . it is speaking the mighty works of God, it is intimate personal conversation with God - It is worshipping in spirit and in truth.

You don't believe it - then it's fine to disagree but please

 

[dcontroversal]

1Cor 14:4, I don't know dc, maybe you are just really spiritual but I happen to NEED to be edified in my spirit sometimes... and this is what the scripture prescribes.

The purpose for tongues has ceased......there is no practical application.....the spirit is edified by the word of God not some mumbo jumbo which has no bearing on the truth and on top of that the word tongues means LANGUAGES and a study of acts will reveal that the disciples spoke in their OWN language and the nations represented HEARD in their native tongue! When You can stand up and speak ENGLISH and a non-English speaking member of your church can understand in their own language then and only then will what took place in the bible have taken place!

 

[dcontroversal]

Does God talk to you? Does God give you information concerning certain situations maybe you are in or someone you may be counseling? That would be word of knowledge [super natural knowledge] and/or word of wisdom.

Word of knowledge is NOT new revelation; it is there for God to lead you or direct you. Every situation that WE find ourselves in PERSONALLY may not be clear to us in scripture so God does talk to us TODAY and we need him to lead us TODAY.

Speaking in tongues is not for "foreign" speaking people to understand - for when someone speaks in tongues they don't know "what language" that will come forth; tongues is not a "prepared" speech - When in a group of believers, it should be interpreted and will be words of edification for the people present - In individual prayer and/or praise to God; it spiritually edifies/builds up the believer - so we can't say there is NO purpose whatsoever. And God placed this context of scripture within his word so that we would not be ignorant of spiritual matters [pneumatikos].

Now as for "pride" and "self exaltation" - nope, nada, none - pure and simple - it is praising, extoling God. . . it is speaking the mighty works of God, it is intimate personal conversation with God - It is worshipping in spirit and in truth.

You don't believe it - then it's fine to disagree but please

God speaks thru his written word and everything I said above stands........there is no practical application of what you are saying...period!

 

[dcontroversal]

Another bone of contention.....Why is it the only church that had to be instructed concerning tongues was the spiritually IMMATURE Corinthian church that had some 15 things wrong with it? Why does not Paul instruct the churches at Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonica, Philippi etc.......

BECAUSE THEY were more MATURE than the church at Corinth.......Speaks volumes about those who think they need and or say that they speak in tongues!

The word CEASE is clear as applied unto tongues!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Another bone of contention.....Why is it the only church that had to be instructed concerning tongues was the spiritually IMMATURE Corinthian church that had some 15 things wrong with it? Why does not Paul instruct the churches at Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonica, Philippi etc.......

BECAUSE THEY were more MATURE than the church at Corinth.......Speaks volumes about those who think they need and or say that they speak in tongues!

The word CEASE is clear as applied unto tongues!

Apparently the churches at Ephesus, Galatia, Thessalonica, Philippi were doing things correctly!! and Corinthians needed correction . . . . Also, I think these letters were sent to all churches - IOW, the letters from Paul were shared within the churches throughout the body of Christ . . . . We also should realize that not EVERY SINGLE, DAY BY DAY SITUATION is within scripture - things happened in regular every day life that was not recorded. So I would say that we tend to start reading between the lines and could perhaps read a little too much into or out of the lives of those written about. [Notice I did say "we"]. . . . so just because "tongues" is not written in Ephesians, Galatians, Thessalonica, Philippi, etc. - we don't know and can't say for a surety that these things weren't dealt with here also. God chose the book of Corinthians to hold the subject - 1 & 2 Corinthians deal mainly with reproof and/or correction to bring all the body of Christ back to correct doctrine - God chose the how, the why, and the way scripture should be placed within his written word.

The word CEASE is also clear to me as applied to tongues . . . especially as to WHEN.

This subject will just remain a "bone of contention" between us and it is certainly not a salvific position. It is just concerning whether one wants to manifest the gift of holy Spirit via the nine manifestations or one doesn't -

Your sister in Christ - PB

 

[kaylagrl]

There are many Believers who are in suffering.
Paul himself said that he pleaded to the Lord to remove an infirmity from him, and yet God's response to his plea was "my Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness".

Did Paul not have enough Faith to be healed?
No. God just had a different plan.

I read a book on this once and it said the "thorn in the flesh" may not have been sickness. Not sure if that is true but it was an interesting concept.

 

[tourist]

I read a book on this once and it said the "thorn in the flesh" may not have been sickness. Not sure if that is true but it was an interesting concept.

I agree with you. I believe that it had to do with matters of the 'flesh'. Of course, perhaps that was a type of sickness. After all, he was a human being too.

 

[tourist]

There are many Believers who are in suffering.
Paul himself said that he pleaded to the Lord to remove an infirmity from him, and yet God's response to his plea was "my Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness".

Did Paul not have enough Faith to be healed?
No. God just had a different plan.

I believe that your assessment of the situation is correct.

 

[dcontroversal]

I read a book on this once and it said the "thorn in the flesh" may not have been sickness. Not sure if that is true but it was an interesting concept.

Based upon the fact that Paul had men dictate his epistles, made a big deal about signing one of his epistles with big letters and the fact that he was blinded and had scales fall off of his eyes there are many that think the problem was his eyes.....

Just throwing this out as a point to ponder.....