How To Be Un-Saved

[dcontroversal]

No.......by what we BELIEVE.

You have never been able to grasp the argument being set forth. That tells me something.

Look pal....we have had the dance numerous times....the only one not grasping the truth is you....

If we (PAUL and THOSE HE IS WRITING TO) believe NOT (after belief) HE (JESUS) abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.....

Try to grasp that truth and quit thinking that YOU keep yourself saved....that is false and does not = biblical salvation!

 

[dcontroversal]

It's sad that so many hold a doctrine of salvation that says they can not know they are really saved until after they die. They can think they can know they are saved now, but since they insist John is saying only those who never leave are truly saved they can't know if they are truly saved until all opportunities in this life for them to leave have been exhausted.

And besides, John turns right around and tells the believers he's talking to to not also leave. So much for only true believers not being able to leave. Obviously, his counsel to the remaining believers shows us that is not what John was teaching in 1 John 2.

what is more tragic is people like you that will not embrace the simple verbiage of the text so as to espouse and push your false dogma...

THEY went out from us because they were NEVER OF US.....

What does NEVER OF US MEAN?

SEE.....the truth is simple for those who will just receive it.....

 

[Ralph-]

Try to grasp that truth and quit thinking that YOU keep yourself saved....that is false and does not = biblical salvation!

I keep believing in the one who can keep me saved. That's not me saving myself. No where in scripture is believing a self righteous work of merit. But you can certainly set me straight on that if you think you can. Chapter and verse is what we need.

 

[Ralph-]

what is more tragic is people like you that will not embrace the simple verbiage of the text so as to espouse and push your false dogma...

THEY went out from us because they were NEVER OF US.....

What does NEVER OF US MEAN?

SEE.....the truth is simple for those who will just receive it.....

Vs. 19 can't mean what you say it means because of what John says immediately says after it...



"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it...

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:19,21,24,26,28



If, as you insist, John just got done saying in vs.19 that only people who aren't real children of God fall away, why does he then proceed to tell real children of God to not fall away???? Obviously, John does not mean in vs.19 that only fake believers fall away.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Vs. 19 can't mean what you say it means because of what John says immediately says after it...



"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it...

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:19,21,24,26,28



If, as you insist, John just got done saying in vs.19 that only people who aren't real children of God fall away, why does he then proceed to tell real children of God to not fall away???? Obviously, John does not mean in vs.19 that only fake believers fall away.

only those who are not of us do not abide in Him...

He never knew them......

we who continue in FAITH are not of them....

hebrews 10
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

______________
John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[dcontroversal]

I keep believing in the one who can keep me saved. That's not me saving myself. No where in scripture is believing a self righteous work of merit. But you can certainly set me straight on that if you think you can. Chapter and verse is what we need.

If your going to quote me how about honesty about your belief that one can walk away lost and quit believing and then actually quote me....you are very very deceptive as proven in the not by woks thread and I see you are still as deceptive in this thread when it comes to quotes, what is being discussed and your false stance....

Look pal....we have had the dance numerous times....the only one not grasping the truth is you....

If we (PAUL and THOSE HE IS WRITING TO) believe NOT (after belief) HE (JESUS) abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.....

Try to grasp that truth and quit thinking that YOU keep yourself saved....that is false and does not = biblical salvation!

 

[dcontroversal]

Vs. 19 can't mean what you say it means because of what John says immediately says after it...



"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it...

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."-1 John 2:19,21,24,26,28



If, as you insist, John just got done saying in vs.19 that only people who aren't real children of God fall away, why does he then proceed to tell real children of God to not fall away???? Obviously, John does not mean in vs.19 that only fake believers fall away.

Sure it does.....if they were of us they would have remained, yet the fact they walked away proves they NEVER WERE OF US....nice twist to support your false theology....your Modus Operandi......twist it to fit your false theology.....

 

[dcontroversal]

only those who are not of us do not abide in Him...

He never knew them......

we who continue in FAITH are not of them....

hebrews 10
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

______________
John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

he proves who is his lord every time he speaks.....HE keeps BELIEVING....it is ll about what HE does and has nothing to do with what CHRIST does or has done....

The obvious way to see who is false and who is true...those who point to themselves and what THEY do as opposed to constantly pointing at CHRIST and what HE HAS DONE and or DOES obviously are not of GOD...end of story

 

[Ralph-]

If we (PAUL and THOSE HE IS WRITING TO) believe NOT (after belief) HE (JESUS) abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.....

Correct, He cannot and will not deny his own body. That's why you should continue to be a part of his body. That's where you are safe and secure. So don't stop believing.


Let's look at the passage...


"12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."-2 Timothy 2:12-13


Simple logic tells us that being 'faithless' and 'denying him' HAVE to be two different things. How do we know that? Because they have different outcomes. If you are faithless (cheating on your taxes, watching porn, hating fellow believers, etc.) God will not deny you because, despite your rebellion and disobedience, you are still trusting in his forgiveness and in the process of growing up into the image of Christ. You are still a part of 'Himself', therefore, he can't and won't deny you.

But if you deny him (remember, 'being faithless' and 'denying Him' HAVE to be two different things) you no longer belong to Jesus that he should have some obligation to not deny you also. You have left the body of your own choosing and will be denied by Jesus at the resurrection.


So, all of us in our various levels of unfaithfulness to the Lord are safe in salvation as long as we keep believing, but if we outright deny Jesus we remove ourselves from his protection and we will not be saved when he returns.

 

[Ralph-]

he proves who is his lord every time he speaks.....HE keeps BELIEVING....it is ll about what HE does and has nothing to do with what CHRIST does or has done....

Thank you for your opinion. Now show us the beef to prove what you say is true. Show us where my believing is a self righteous work of the works gospel. While you're working on that I'll show you where it says my believing is NOT a self righteous work that can not justify:


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"-Romans 4:5

The obvious way to see who is false and who is true...those who point to themselves and what THEY do as opposed to constantly pointing at CHRIST and what HE HAS DONE and or DOES obviously are not of GOD...end of story

All credit goes to God. Without his gracious gift of faith I can't believe anything that I can not see. That's why I can not, and do not, boast.

Even if I did, you have to prove from scripture that my believing is a self righteous work that can not justify. After all these months you have not done that. Of course, we both know you can't because the Bible does not say believing is a self righteous work that can not justify. It says the exact opposite. Your claim that believing is a self righteous work that can not justify is completely baseless. But as I say, you can set us straight on that by simply posting chapter and verse that says otherwise.

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you for your opinion. Now show us the beef to prove what you say is true. Show us where my believing is a self righteous work of the works gospel. While you're working on that I'll show you where it says my believing is NOT a self righteous work that can not justify:


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"-Romans 4:5



All credit goes to God. Without his gracious gift of faith I can't believe anything that I can not see. That's why I can not, and do not, boast.

Even if I did, you have to prove from scripture that my believing is a self righteous work that can not justify. After all these months you have not done that. Of course, we both know you can't because the Bible does not say believing is a self righteous work that can not justify. It says the exact opposite. Your claim that believing is a self righteous work that can not justify is completely baseless. But as I say, you can set us straight on that by simply posting chapter and verse that says otherwise.

JESUS begins, finishes and completes every good work of faith he begins in a man....YOU do not KEEP yourself saved and or BELIEVING....and to the above rigmarole....

endure = reigning
deny = denial <--the lost-->Peter denied three times as a saved man and was NOT DENIED
lose FAITH HE REMAINS FAITHFUL

Your dogma is not of the LORD and it is highly doubtful that you will ever acknowledge the truth....and you CONTINUE to push I keep myself saved lie while denying that it is JESUS that BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES all works of faith.....NOT YOU or I.......

 

[RickyZ]

If your going to quote me how about honesty about your belief that one can walk away lost and quit believing and then actually quote me....you are very very deceptive as proven in the not by woks thread and I see you are still as deceptive in this thread when it comes to quotes, what is being discussed and your false stance....

Look pal....we have had the dance numerous times....the only one not grasping the truth is you....

If we (PAUL and THOSE HE IS WRITING TO) believe NOT (after belief) HE (JESUS) abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.....

Try to grasp that truth and quit thinking that YOU keep yourself saved....that is false and does not = biblical salvation!

Every time you say "Look Pal" (and it's a lot) I get the sense you would really just like to take a swing at whoever you're talking to.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[Ralph-]

....if they were of us they would have remained, yet the fact they walked away proves they NEVER WERE OF US....

We know that these particular people who denied Christ and 'went out from us' in vs.19 'were not of us'. But we can't broad stroke every single person in history who 'goes out from us' as being 'not of us' to begin with. We can't because of John's warning to the remaining children who know the truth to not do what they did but to continue in Christ and the Father, and tells them what will happen if they don't.

It's that simple.


Calvin made a very big mistake by creating a doctrine that says 'all true believers never leave out from us' using the example of a few who did leave out from us.

And like I say, if you want to use staying as the measure of whether you are really saved or not then you will never know if you are a true believer who never leaves until the day you die and all chances of you leaving are over. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security???

 

[dcontroversal]

Every time you say "Look Pal" (and it's a lot) I get the sense you would really just like to take a swing at whoever you're talking to.

But maybe that's just me.

No not really.......I am not violent and or angry.....just a saying I suppose.......kind of like in AU....they say MATE all the time.....

 

[dcontroversal]

We know that these particular people who denied Christ and 'went out from us' in vs.19 'were not of us'. But we can't broad stroke every single person in history who 'goes out from us' as being 'not of us' to begin with. We can't because of John's warning to the remaining children who know the truth to not do what they did but to continue in Christ and the Father, and tells them what will happen if they don't.

It's that simple.

Calvin made a very big mistake by creating a doctrine that says true believers never leave out from us using the example of a few who did leave out from us.

And like I say, if you want to use staying as the measure of whether you are really saved or not then you will never know if you are a true believer who never left until the day you die and all chances of you leaving are over. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security???

On the contrary yes we can......the context is clear as to who he is speaking of.........this is not at all pointing to those who temporarily lose faith, stumble and or even allow the world to consume or stunt their growth.....go look at what the people he is addressing DO..........

 

[RickyZ]

You sound violent and angry. But again maybe that's just me.

In the U.S., when someone tells me 'look pal', I duck and run! (If I don't stick around to be struck on one cheek, I don't have to offer up the other one, right? )

 

[Ralph-]

No not really.......I am not violent and or angry.....just a saying I suppose.......kind of like in AU....they say MATE all the time.....

Take this like a Christian man should, deek......you do not display any fruit of the Spirit. You have no gentleness about you at all.

You can hate me and abuse me for telling you the truth, or you can look inward and accept the truth and find the grace of God to be different. That's what the rest of us do.

 

[Ralph-]

On the contrary yes we can......the context is clear as to who he is speaking of.........this is not at all pointing to those who temporarily lose faith, stumble and or even allow the world to consume or stunt their growth.....go look at what the people he is addressing DO..........

Go look at what the people John is addressing ARE.....children of God who know the truth. Yet he warns them to not 'go out from us' as the others did. That instantly negates any suggestion that John was saying that any and all people who leave were never truly with us to begin with.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You sound violent and angry. But again maybe that's just me.

In the U.S., when someone tells me 'look pal', I duck and run! (If I don't stick around to be struck on one cheek, I don't have to offer up the other one, right? )

you just sound like you're picking at whatever you can to try and do an attack on his character in order to avoid actual discussion...

but maybe that's just me

 

[Ralph-]

you just sound like you're picking at whatever you can to try and do an attack on his character in order to avoid actual discussion...

but maybe that's just me

It's just you. Deek is not a very kind and gentle person. He is very abusive in this forum.