How to defeat Calvinism
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Two things:
1.) First, MahoganySnail, allow me to point out that you misquote several passages of Scripture, because you think the Bible is a book of random quotes you get to throw around, and put a spin on, such as your erroneous usage of 2 Peter 3:9, and the multitude of other verses, which when confronted, there is no response back.
Example, you use 2 Peter 3:9 to say that God wants all men to come to repentance, and for no one to perish. However, notice who 2 Peter 3 is written to, first verse, 'This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,' and also in verse 8, you know, one verse before verse 9, 'But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.' If you read 2 Peter 3:9 along with the previous verse, it actually says (and I'll make this real simple),Who is the 'you' in 2 Peter 3:9? The beloved! The Lord is patient toward 'you,' the beloved, not wishing for any of ‘you,’ the beloved to perish, but for all [the beloved, that have yet to come to repentance] to come to repentance.
2.) Imoss, it’s not that God screwed anyone, man screwed man, and will hold man accountable. God doesn’t have to save anyone, no, not even you. You are no high king, or queen, or anything like that, you are but a rag doll. I am nothing but a rag doll. The only thing you are is a piece of clay, and that’s all you are. The only thing I am is a piece of clay, and that’s all I am. Though God doesn’t HAVE to save anyone, He did choose to save a few. And even if He didn’t save anyone, would He be in the wrong for not doing so? Of course, you’ll say ‘no,’ but that’s the argument you’re giving. ‘It’s not fair, God has to save everybody!’ Absolutely preposterous! All men are dead-in-their-trespass sinners and deserve hellfire in brimstone. It’s amazing that God even loves anyone, when in fact by looking around I would think that God should hate everybody! Those whom God loves will be saved, and there’s nothing that can stand in the way of the strong salvific love that God has for His sheep. Understand this when I say, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
No where do I ever read in the Scriptures that man makes a choice for Christ. No where do I read, or have I ever read, ‘Now just choose Jesus… ,’ or ‘All you have to do is choose Jesus! Come to Jesus!’ No where! No, what I do read is this:Consider this, ‘All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.’ Where is your choice for Christ in that? All those that are sheep, all those that are drawn by the Father will come to Him. The opportunity to reject God isn’t even there. It doesn’t say, ‘all that the Father has given me, only some will choose me.’ You seriously need to rethink your theology, none of it makes any sense. If you're going to make an argument, use Scripture, not your emotions.
1.) First, MahoganySnail, allow me to point out that you misquote several passages of Scripture, because you think the Bible is a book of random quotes you get to throw around, and put a spin on, such as your erroneous usage of 2 Peter 3:9, and the multitude of other verses, which when confronted, there is no response back.
Example, you use 2 Peter 3:9 to say that God wants all men to come to repentance, and for no one to perish. However, notice who 2 Peter 3 is written to, first verse, 'This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,' and also in verse 8, you know, one verse before verse 9, 'But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.' If you read 2 Peter 3:9 along with the previous verse, it actually says (and I'll make this real simple),
'But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.' -- 2 Peter 3:8-9
2.) Imoss, it’s not that God screwed anyone, man screwed man, and will hold man accountable. God doesn’t have to save anyone, no, not even you. You are no high king, or queen, or anything like that, you are but a rag doll. I am nothing but a rag doll. The only thing you are is a piece of clay, and that’s all you are. The only thing I am is a piece of clay, and that’s all I am. Though God doesn’t HAVE to save anyone, He did choose to save a few. And even if He didn’t save anyone, would He be in the wrong for not doing so? Of course, you’ll say ‘no,’ but that’s the argument you’re giving. ‘It’s not fair, God has to save everybody!’ Absolutely preposterous! All men are dead-in-their-trespass sinners and deserve hellfire in brimstone. It’s amazing that God even loves anyone, when in fact by looking around I would think that God should hate everybody! Those whom God loves will be saved, and there’s nothing that can stand in the way of the strong salvific love that God has for His sheep. Understand this when I say, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
No where do I ever read in the Scriptures that man makes a choice for Christ. No where do I read, or have I ever read, ‘Now just choose Jesus… ,’ or ‘All you have to do is choose Jesus! Come to Jesus!’ No where! No, what I do read is this:
‘You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.’ – John 15:16
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John Wesley:
This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every asserter of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? That God is worse than the devil? It cannot be.
This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every asserter of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? That God is worse than the devil? It cannot be.
Hey Imoss,
Calvinism seems to me to be a bit of a feel good doctrine. I believe that some people feel good believing that they are irresistibly saved. It's stressful to have to take responsibility for our actions, especially when it means we can fall away and be ****ed. Many people can't deal with that possibility emotionally, and therefore they would rather deny it's reality.
In the process however, they make God the author of sin, because they are not to blame for their sins since they have no free will. If God really saved only a few irresistibly, then He would make them perfectly righteous the moment they believe. There would be absolutely no sense for God to leave them in a state of struggle against sin, except He take some demented pleasure in their misery.
The only logical explanation why God would allow believers to remain in a struggle against sin is because He wants them to continue to choose Him. He wants them to not only choose Him once, but day after day, through trials and doubts, because then He knows we really love Him.
Quest
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You mistakenly and falsely say that Calvinism makes God the author of sin, and this shows your limited understanding. Calvinism doesn't teach that God is the author of sin. If you actually read any of the posts prior to this, you would have known this, because I constantly reiterate this.
God is not the author of sin. He didn’t ‘make’ you sin… but He didn’t stop you either. That’s the difference. God intervenes in the lives of His chosen people by pressing His Spirit on the believer to conform them to the image of Christ; however, for those that are not His elect, He does nothing to intervene in their lives, He allows them to continue in their own condemnation.
Very typical, you don't think things out, don't study what Calvinism actually says, but rather, you just make assumptions. If you actually read anything that was posted, you'd actually know what we do believe, but since when do Arminians ever do that?
God is not the author of sin. He didn’t ‘make’ you sin… but He didn’t stop you either. That’s the difference. God intervenes in the lives of His chosen people by pressing His Spirit on the believer to conform them to the image of Christ; however, for those that are not His elect, He does nothing to intervene in their lives, He allows them to continue in their own condemnation.
Very typical, you don't think things out, don't study what Calvinism actually says, but rather, you just make assumptions. If you actually read anything that was posted, you'd actually know what we do believe, but since when do Arminians ever do that?
It doesn't teach it explicitly but it implies it. It's a logical conclusion when you believe a) man does not have free will, and b) God is completely sovereign in all things. In the Garden of Eden ,there are two situations - either man had free will to rebel in which case it would not be God's fault, or God caused Adam and Eve to sin in which case adam and eve had no free will and were completely helpless in the matter. . Based on my understanding of Calvinism, Calvinists believe God is fully sovereign and man has no free will - therefore, it was not man, but GOD who caused Adam and Eve to sin. This therefore makes God the author of evil.
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Again, you assume this. God did not stop Adam or Eve for a purpose, and that was to carry out with His will. As much as we Calvinists hold true to John 6, John 10, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, which all support election, we also hold true to every other minute detail of Scripture, including that part in James 1:13, where it says, "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."
And as much as we hold true to those, we also hold true to Romans 1, where it is said that God gives people over to their fleshly desires. He doesn't cause it, but He doesn't stop them either, in fact, He hands them over to do what they want, which leads them to their own condemnation. And to His saints, His Holy Spirit is imputed into them.
Every minute detail in history that has come to pass, and in the future that is still to come is ordained by God.
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I don't read walls of text, sorry (which many of your posts are). Keep it short and sweet and I am always happy to read.
But if there is no choice to do wrong there is no guilt. No man on earth would be put in prison for some crime he didn't choose to commit (forced to do it by nature). Why would God demand this type of justice from mankind, yet act totally contrary to what He demands of us? That's like putting out a penalty on any man guilty of going to the bathroom. Any man who does this is guilty? Well, who can help it? Nonsense!
And if men are not to blame for entangling themselves into sin or remaining in it longer than necessary, then God is to blame. Where is your answer for why God doesn't convert men fully in a moment then, if Calvinism be true? Why does He let you struggle with sin against a devil who wouldn't tempt you for a second if he believed in Calvinism?
Clearly satan isn't a Calvinist. He is far more intelligent than we are, yet he continually tries to turn us from Christ. Why? Why? This is all nonsense. Either satan is the most intelligent being ever created or he is the stupidest being ever created. Which is it? Why would he tempt if he can't turn you from God?
And moreover, somehow a perfectly holy Adam is able to choose evil, but a perfectly sinful you and I are unable to choose Righteousness. Why? Where is the logic? Is the sinful nature more powerful than God's Divine Nature? Did God create Adam less than perfect? Nonsense!
Moreover, if Paul tells us that "some will depart from the faith," how then can they depart from a faith they never had? How can someone depart from Greenland if that person was never in Greenland to begin with? Moreover, how can a blind heathen - refused any grace - be made a partaker of the Holy Ghost? How? Yet Paul says someone can fall from this state. How can anyone fall from this state who has never been in it?
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Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?
In the past week I have had several people ask me how Adam's original sin come about since he did not have a fallen nature to contend with. Thus it's not that Adam and Eve were originally prevented from obeying God due to a sinful nature, as we are now. Also since God is NOT the author of evil, didn't make Adam sin, nor did HE put the sinful desire within them, so the question is really how (or why) did Adam originally sin? This is really an attempt to understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and freewill in the beginning, prior to the fall.
By confession we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change." (WSF IV.2) This is to say that man was created in such a way where he was not yet sealed in righteousness as he will be in glory, but created with a an inclination toward good. Why evil temptation was able to overcome that inclination, the Scripture does not reveal, so any dogmatic response would be speculative. So while there are indeed mysteries that are not fully revealed to us in Scripture ... on the other hand, there are some things revealed that we do know and from these we can draw some conclusions.
Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?
It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.
God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).
As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.
Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.
So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.
There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."
These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.
God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).
This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28). (Piper)
In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture.
**Article from monergism.com ( Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall? )
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Amen Snail.
But let's not stop there. Why did God allow sin to come into the universe to begin with? Couldn't He just have created happy robots in a happy world, rather than to create them in an unhappy world and then condemn the majority of them to hell? Couldn't He have just created some and put them in hell to begin with since this pleases Him so? Couldn't God have at least sent those He hates to hell quite some time ago? So why drag this mess on? For who's sick entertainment does God extend this mess?
Oh wait... God extends this mess because the Bible says that He desires that none should perish...
Quest
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LOL... Didn't I just get done talking about 2 Peter 3:9? Perhaps you should read the 'wall of text' of 2 Peter 3, and perhaps read my post addressed on 2 Peter 3:9, which is the second post on page 8 of this discussion, and it's actually really quite short. You don't read, that's the problem, you're just full of assumptions. You assume a text says something it really doesn't say. You take one verse, rip it from the text, and voila, presto. See my post addressed to Imoss, and Snail, for this would now be the 4th time I've made mention of this.
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Alright, I just read the "second post on page 8." And I still don't see a reason why God allowed men to fall into sin when He could have just created a few that He "beloved" and put them into a permanent paradise forever. What can God prove to robots? God is showing His robots how powerful He is by throwing people into hell? What do robots care? Could God not program His robots to understand how powerful He is without them seeing people condemned to hell?
We are talking about an infinite God here, and there is only one logical reason for Him to allow men to fall into sin, and that is to give free will. Anything else is a cosmic circus act perpetrated by a God who apparently has nothing better to do, than to create beings and make them suffer, because that's His good pleasure?
And again, Adam and Eve who were perfectly Righteous - knowing no evil - are able to make a choice to sin, but you and I who are perfectly opposite - perfectly sinful - are not able to choose to do good? Where is the sense in this? Perfectly Righteous Sinned = Perfectly Sinful can choose Christ. There is no in-between on this.
Quest
We are talking about an infinite God here, and there is only one logical reason for Him to allow men to fall into sin, and that is to give free will. Anything else is a cosmic circus act perpetrated by a God who apparently has nothing better to do, than to create beings and make them suffer, because that's His good pleasure?
And again, Adam and Eve who were perfectly Righteous - knowing no evil - are able to make a choice to sin, but you and I who are perfectly opposite - perfectly sinful - are not able to choose to do good? Where is the sense in this? Perfectly Righteous Sinned = Perfectly Sinful can choose Christ. There is no in-between on this.
Quest
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Praise be to God the Lord of our salvation.... I have read for over an hour in this post... sometimes I say,, please stop.. they are blind ( Calvinist) they can not see, for their eyes are wide,, shut and their ears are dull of hearing... I never knew of a Calvinist till I come to this site,, never knew such a sect exsisted.. but I wanted to learn.. so I read almost all the post here till it got to where I was seeing that it had started repeating itself.... I know the Lord our God and I hear him when he speaks,,, and he said ... read on,, listen learn,,,, I don't remeber all names up till this point,, But I must say that God has truly shown himself faithful here in this post conerning false doctrine. this is what " the Lord God, Byy his precious Holy Ghost has shown me"
1) that the Calvinist believers have deaf and dull ears: I say this spiritually. and the god of this world has there minds blinded.. I said to God Lord why is it that they go back and forth and back and forth when it is clearly seen that those who here preaching calvinism cannot hear what they are saying... and I read it just about all.... But God said it is not for those who are teaching and disputing the truth,, it is for people like me who want to know the truth....
and as I am, ,, what I will say on the outside looking in,, and asking the Lord all the way through this door of this post,,, hmmm.. Lord what about this and what about that? one thing I see is that the Calvinist use a select scripture to try to explain the whole bible,,,, and when Swhagga brought up scriptures in Ezekial.. as well as other scriptures that plainly and clearly stand up and holds up to there is not salvation to those who do not willing come to the Lord through faith in Christ Jesus.. He skip over them and could not answer them with the select scriptuers the was use to brain wash those to believe a lie as such as God would creat a people with the sole purpose to go to hell... don't make no sence according the the Word of God.... as God said if they want to believe a lie he will send them strong delusions that they will believe a lie.....
Now; I give God the Glory For Swagga... And Mahogy as well as other who has step out in truth and would not let such a lie out of the oits of hell go forth as it is the will of God that he would send someone to Hell.... man send themselves to hell for not coming to the truth of God that is in Christ Jesus,, and as Apostle Paul said that if any man come preaching any other doctrine let him be accursed and he said it twice....I will not get into scriptures for they that needed to be spoken and presented was!! and praise God... they were very effective,, for my spirit leaped with praise each and everytime the truth was spoken....
I will try to explain forknowledg and predestination as the Lord has shown me because I want the truth and to never be deceive to believe a lie... and also the soverignty of God,,,
as we know to be Soverign is to be self governed.. so God makes all the rules of How he will do his thang.... now I dont want to make this long but it have to come strong or else it will not be effective as the Lord by his Holy Ghost has giving it to me....Glory to God,,,
ok, do all know what it is to be a slave and how you can become one???? ok just incase you don't know and don't feel like looking this up... Slavery (also called thralldom) is a form of forced labour in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages. In some societies it was legal for an owner to kill a slave; in others it was a crime.[1]
Ok we know the bible say that we were all sold under sin,,, as for one man's sin all have been sold under sin... so every one who was born to the linage of Adam and Eve was born into sin,, ( slavery/bondage) because who ever is born to a slve will also belong to the Master.... as the bible tells us whom ever you yeidl your selves to to he is your master... and when Adam and Eve yeildined to satan; he bacame ther master,,, which then God set in motion the REDEMPTION of mankind... as it is read A kinsmen redeemer,,, this is why Christ/ God had to come in the flesh to be a kinsmen redeemer... please follow me here,,, I'm going somewhere... because God as God was not related to us.. that is why the seed of the woman was going to do the Job... and the bible do say that satan had seed as well ( every one was under the rule of satan) being used and abused by satan's seeds ( demons) they were our slave master.. that is why they have to be cast out.. ok are you all following me,, if you are not seeing where I am going here please keep going with me.... I am putting this this why for all to understand weather it is with scripture or without them it is all based on the bible..... lets get back..... ok.. now God knew that he had a plan,,, because God connot tolerate sin,, he knew he could not just take man back in the state we was in,,,, he is Soverign,, he said he will not so he did not...
but he got a plan that will bring man back to him and redeem them from the slave master.... HINT, God " had a Plan"" now if someone have a plan they think it out before they work it out; right, do you agree?? so God said that I am going to redeem man , I can't just take them back because I can not be a lier... I told them they will surely die,, and they did,,, (spiritually: sperated from him as in I don't own you no more,,, the devil do so there is only so much I can do.. this is God's plan ( predestination/ forknew)
ok; Now I hope this help because this is going to come very simple,,,, Now God have his ( Plan/ predestination/ forknowledge) of what he was going to do and how it was going to get done... God is not and never ment for noone to go to hell... it wasn't in his plan from the begining..... in God's plan,,,,,,, He said " I am going to give this to alll and he said allll who come.... I have the price paid; anyone can be redeemed by it. it is a great price, it is enough for the whole world ( all and evey man) no matter what you have don it is for you.. the debt has been paid , I sent this for all who was lost to the enemy through slavery/bondage of sin. therefore all those who choose to be reemed by the price I paid, I will call them my sons and daughters,, see what God, knew that all will not come and God being a Soverign God chose not to know who will and who will not,,, or else he would have never givien him life in this world knowing he will go to hell if he existed... remember you already know he is soverign/self governing.. that is why it is by grace.. see the bible tells us that faith release that grace and in return we get the gift of righteousness. now let me show you how the Lord had to explain it to me,,, the predestined and forknowledge that he had,, and is so misunderstood my Calvinist..
this is what the Lord said,,, where I can understand that he is not a ling, crazy, mean, God that as he said in his Word that all those who come to him in no wise will he shut them out... and he is not sitting back laughing, awwwe sorry you are not welcome, didn't put you on the list.
God said, sit down and you Plan a dinner,, you want it to be big and I do mean the best anyone ever been to..
who make out what all you are going to serve at this dinner... you put down, all the foods.. ( please get a visiual as you follow plz )
do you see your list??? I say yes Lord it is a good one... now you know that you want to invite everyone, God said don't leave noone out.. if you only do for those who love you then what good is that.. I said, ok Lord I see so far... God said, you need to make a plan first of everything that will happen and then send out your announcment to tell everyone they are invited no matter how old they are. where they are from, young , old,,, I said, Lord that will be a lot of people,, God said, I know, but although you invite them, all are not going to want to come,, they will have all kind of reason for not coming, I said Lord you right, you know how man are. so after making out the plan and sending out the notices,, I sat back and thought on everything in the Plan,,,I knew all will not come,, so I added that part to my plan as well. God said, do you want to do something for those who will come? I said, Lord I would love to, what can I do for them.. God told me to right this in my plan and to put it on my notice as well. I am having a great big dinner and I invite everyone, you are all welcome to come and enjoy the pleasure of food, fun and gifts will be giving as well. it is free you don't have to pay for a thing, I have fronted the bill and is asking no one to bring money, I have great things instore for " ALL WHO WILL COME" and if you do not come you can not get anything!! you have to be there in person and you have to stay the gifts will be giving out at the end of the dinner,, NO EXCEPTONS !!! this is what God told me to put in my plan, He say you don't want them coming eating get the gifts and leave, without reaping the benifits of why you are having this dinner. No Lord I want them to have it all, so they must stay till the end... ok so lets go over this... I already knew ( predestined/ forknown) that I wanted everyone to come, and I also knew that everyone was not going to come, so befor I sent out the notices into the world. I was not going to be surprised that all didnt show up. that's commen sence. some people love theirs lives too much to give them up for anything or anyone. no matter what you offer them,, so I said, Lord, I am going to get happy for those who choose to come and I will bless them with the gifts I have already paid for,, and they have to stay inorder to get the gifts, and if they choose to leave, let them go, God said, that's good.. God said, who are you going to get to help you, Lord I will ask some of them who come to help me serve the rest, I also had to add that to the plan and notice,,, everything the Lord was showing me in this vision,,, he said to put in my plan and on the notice... so even before the NOTICE went out, I already knew how everything was going to be.. I did not know the people who will come and I did not no of whom will not,,, ( it was foreknown of me, and everything that was going to happen was preordained by me and as well predestined to happen). see I knew what the people; who ever they were, was going to receive when they came.. I was not going to go out and force them to come to my dinner, I want them to enjoy themselves, because we know noone can appreciate anything that is forced on them, neither will they understand the goodness that will come from it. so I wanted them to come of their own free will because I paid a big price and I don't want noone there if it is not what they want... if they come, I will welcome them with open and loving arms,, even if they choose not to stay and except the food and gifts I have for them; I will let them go. so I aslo added this at the Lord's instructed.
I ask many if they would go tell everyone they knew or see,,, did you hear about the big dinner,, and tell them everything that is going to happen and some to pass out the annoucments. God said so what you are going to put in your plan about those who choose not to come?? I said Lord, what shall I do,,, God said, it is not good for people to reject so great a gift, because those who come and the things you are offering them will change there lives forever... write this down in your plan, that this is not an ordinary dinner and it is for to change your life for the good, once the door is shut and all is inside,,, there will be hell for those who are not at the dinner, this dinner is to bring yo in from the outside that when the outside turn to fire you will be saved and it will be pleasure to you, and I am telling you all before hand that you will know for it is what I have to do to save you,,,, I have set my plan in motion and there is no turning back now. I will let you know everything I have put in my plan. ( my predestinated will, and preknown reason) I tell it all to you. you will receive my annoucments ( the Bible) and it will have everything in it about what I have already planned for you who will come and for those who will not. I have thought it out, I have wrote it down ( I have predestined it, I have forknew it) before I told you ( the Bible) and I sent many to tell you and to give you my announcments.
so what God is saying here is that yes he planned salvation before the world began, ( people starting to be fruitful and mutiply)
Adam and Eve had no children yet.. the party don't start with just two people, then it's just a couple hook-up lol.. little humor.
anyway Jesus paid the price for the whole World knowing only,,,,, that all we not come... but not who they are.... Oh god knows everything,,, yes he knew all will not come,,,, but God do not know everything.... he does not know how to lie or how it is to deceive,, or to temp any man of/to do evil.... for their is no evil in him... he does not know how it feels to be a sinner but knows what happens afterwards, he got to learn lots of things when he came to this earth he created,,, but some things God will not know because He Choses not to know. it is somrthing like a buisness plan, or plans you have to propose to someone, or like plans you have to go about your day,, some people write down all they are going to do for the day, and stick with it. but we have not everything covered they may or may not happen and neither do we have the control over any giving situation that may come like God did. that is why he know our end from the begining because he already had it all plannned out how he will help us who will want the help and for those who will not. God never said, "YOU " as in any pacific person but to "YOU" as in "WHOEVER YOU ARE" and when " Whoever You Are" come this is what You will receive.
SEE GOD FINSHED ALL HIS WORK ON THE SIX DAY, as he shown me when I finished my plan, it was all done,,, all I had to do is sit back and let it all unfold, SEE GOD PLANNED HIS WORK,,, AND HE WORKED HIS PLAN,,,,
I hope this will help someone to see and for those who refuse to see I pray God have mercy on you, as in all " YOU" not a pacific You, just the YOUs who will change the doctrine of God for the doctrine of man,,, which make void the grace of our Lord Jeus Christ for you.... those , them
1) that the Calvinist believers have deaf and dull ears: I say this spiritually. and the god of this world has there minds blinded.. I said to God Lord why is it that they go back and forth and back and forth when it is clearly seen that those who here preaching calvinism cannot hear what they are saying... and I read it just about all.... But God said it is not for those who are teaching and disputing the truth,, it is for people like me who want to know the truth....
and as I am, ,, what I will say on the outside looking in,, and asking the Lord all the way through this door of this post,,, hmmm.. Lord what about this and what about that? one thing I see is that the Calvinist use a select scripture to try to explain the whole bible,,,, and when Swhagga brought up scriptures in Ezekial.. as well as other scriptures that plainly and clearly stand up and holds up to there is not salvation to those who do not willing come to the Lord through faith in Christ Jesus.. He skip over them and could not answer them with the select scriptuers the was use to brain wash those to believe a lie as such as God would creat a people with the sole purpose to go to hell... don't make no sence according the the Word of God.... as God said if they want to believe a lie he will send them strong delusions that they will believe a lie.....
Now; I give God the Glory For Swagga... And Mahogy as well as other who has step out in truth and would not let such a lie out of the oits of hell go forth as it is the will of God that he would send someone to Hell.... man send themselves to hell for not coming to the truth of God that is in Christ Jesus,, and as Apostle Paul said that if any man come preaching any other doctrine let him be accursed and he said it twice....I will not get into scriptures for they that needed to be spoken and presented was!! and praise God... they were very effective,, for my spirit leaped with praise each and everytime the truth was spoken....
I will try to explain forknowledg and predestination as the Lord has shown me because I want the truth and to never be deceive to believe a lie... and also the soverignty of God,,,
as we know to be Soverign is to be self governed.. so God makes all the rules of How he will do his thang.... now I dont want to make this long but it have to come strong or else it will not be effective as the Lord by his Holy Ghost has giving it to me....Glory to God,,,
ok, do all know what it is to be a slave and how you can become one???? ok just incase you don't know and don't feel like looking this up... Slavery (also called thralldom) is a form of forced labour in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages. In some societies it was legal for an owner to kill a slave; in others it was a crime.[1]
Ok we know the bible say that we were all sold under sin,,, as for one man's sin all have been sold under sin... so every one who was born to the linage of Adam and Eve was born into sin,, ( slavery/bondage) because who ever is born to a slve will also belong to the Master.... as the bible tells us whom ever you yeidl your selves to to he is your master... and when Adam and Eve yeildined to satan; he bacame ther master,,, which then God set in motion the REDEMPTION of mankind... as it is read A kinsmen redeemer,,, this is why Christ/ God had to come in the flesh to be a kinsmen redeemer... please follow me here,,, I'm going somewhere... because God as God was not related to us.. that is why the seed of the woman was going to do the Job... and the bible do say that satan had seed as well ( every one was under the rule of satan) being used and abused by satan's seeds ( demons) they were our slave master.. that is why they have to be cast out.. ok are you all following me,, if you are not seeing where I am going here please keep going with me.... I am putting this this why for all to understand weather it is with scripture or without them it is all based on the bible..... lets get back..... ok.. now God knew that he had a plan,,, because God connot tolerate sin,, he knew he could not just take man back in the state we was in,,,, he is Soverign,, he said he will not so he did not...
but he got a plan that will bring man back to him and redeem them from the slave master.... HINT, God " had a Plan"" now if someone have a plan they think it out before they work it out; right, do you agree?? so God said that I am going to redeem man , I can't just take them back because I can not be a lier... I told them they will surely die,, and they did,,, (spiritually: sperated from him as in I don't own you no more,,, the devil do so there is only so much I can do.. this is God's plan ( predestination/ forknew)
ok; Now I hope this help because this is going to come very simple,,,, Now God have his ( Plan/ predestination/ forknowledge) of what he was going to do and how it was going to get done... God is not and never ment for noone to go to hell... it wasn't in his plan from the begining..... in God's plan,,,,,,, He said " I am going to give this to alll and he said allll who come.... I have the price paid; anyone can be redeemed by it. it is a great price, it is enough for the whole world ( all and evey man) no matter what you have don it is for you.. the debt has been paid , I sent this for all who was lost to the enemy through slavery/bondage of sin. therefore all those who choose to be reemed by the price I paid, I will call them my sons and daughters,, see what God, knew that all will not come and God being a Soverign God chose not to know who will and who will not,,, or else he would have never givien him life in this world knowing he will go to hell if he existed... remember you already know he is soverign/self governing.. that is why it is by grace.. see the bible tells us that faith release that grace and in return we get the gift of righteousness. now let me show you how the Lord had to explain it to me,,, the predestined and forknowledge that he had,, and is so misunderstood my Calvinist..
this is what the Lord said,,, where I can understand that he is not a ling, crazy, mean, God that as he said in his Word that all those who come to him in no wise will he shut them out... and he is not sitting back laughing, awwwe sorry you are not welcome, didn't put you on the list.
God said, sit down and you Plan a dinner,, you want it to be big and I do mean the best anyone ever been to..
who make out what all you are going to serve at this dinner... you put down, all the foods.. ( please get a visiual as you follow plz )
do you see your list??? I say yes Lord it is a good one... now you know that you want to invite everyone, God said don't leave noone out.. if you only do for those who love you then what good is that.. I said, ok Lord I see so far... God said, you need to make a plan first of everything that will happen and then send out your announcment to tell everyone they are invited no matter how old they are. where they are from, young , old,,, I said, Lord that will be a lot of people,, God said, I know, but although you invite them, all are not going to want to come,, they will have all kind of reason for not coming, I said Lord you right, you know how man are. so after making out the plan and sending out the notices,, I sat back and thought on everything in the Plan,,,I knew all will not come,, so I added that part to my plan as well. God said, do you want to do something for those who will come? I said, Lord I would love to, what can I do for them.. God told me to right this in my plan and to put it on my notice as well. I am having a great big dinner and I invite everyone, you are all welcome to come and enjoy the pleasure of food, fun and gifts will be giving as well. it is free you don't have to pay for a thing, I have fronted the bill and is asking no one to bring money, I have great things instore for " ALL WHO WILL COME" and if you do not come you can not get anything!! you have to be there in person and you have to stay the gifts will be giving out at the end of the dinner,, NO EXCEPTONS !!! this is what God told me to put in my plan, He say you don't want them coming eating get the gifts and leave, without reaping the benifits of why you are having this dinner. No Lord I want them to have it all, so they must stay till the end... ok so lets go over this... I already knew ( predestined/ forknown) that I wanted everyone to come, and I also knew that everyone was not going to come, so befor I sent out the notices into the world. I was not going to be surprised that all didnt show up. that's commen sence. some people love theirs lives too much to give them up for anything or anyone. no matter what you offer them,, so I said, Lord, I am going to get happy for those who choose to come and I will bless them with the gifts I have already paid for,, and they have to stay inorder to get the gifts, and if they choose to leave, let them go, God said, that's good.. God said, who are you going to get to help you, Lord I will ask some of them who come to help me serve the rest, I also had to add that to the plan and notice,,, everything the Lord was showing me in this vision,,, he said to put in my plan and on the notice... so even before the NOTICE went out, I already knew how everything was going to be.. I did not know the people who will come and I did not no of whom will not,,, ( it was foreknown of me, and everything that was going to happen was preordained by me and as well predestined to happen). see I knew what the people; who ever they were, was going to receive when they came.. I was not going to go out and force them to come to my dinner, I want them to enjoy themselves, because we know noone can appreciate anything that is forced on them, neither will they understand the goodness that will come from it. so I wanted them to come of their own free will because I paid a big price and I don't want noone there if it is not what they want... if they come, I will welcome them with open and loving arms,, even if they choose not to stay and except the food and gifts I have for them; I will let them go. so I aslo added this at the Lord's instructed.
I ask many if they would go tell everyone they knew or see,,, did you hear about the big dinner,, and tell them everything that is going to happen and some to pass out the annoucments. God said so what you are going to put in your plan about those who choose not to come?? I said Lord, what shall I do,,, God said, it is not good for people to reject so great a gift, because those who come and the things you are offering them will change there lives forever... write this down in your plan, that this is not an ordinary dinner and it is for to change your life for the good, once the door is shut and all is inside,,, there will be hell for those who are not at the dinner, this dinner is to bring yo in from the outside that when the outside turn to fire you will be saved and it will be pleasure to you, and I am telling you all before hand that you will know for it is what I have to do to save you,,,, I have set my plan in motion and there is no turning back now. I will let you know everything I have put in my plan. ( my predestinated will, and preknown reason) I tell it all to you. you will receive my annoucments ( the Bible) and it will have everything in it about what I have already planned for you who will come and for those who will not. I have thought it out, I have wrote it down ( I have predestined it, I have forknew it) before I told you ( the Bible) and I sent many to tell you and to give you my announcments.
so what God is saying here is that yes he planned salvation before the world began, ( people starting to be fruitful and mutiply)
Adam and Eve had no children yet.. the party don't start with just two people, then it's just a couple hook-up lol.. little humor.
anyway Jesus paid the price for the whole World knowing only,,,,, that all we not come... but not who they are.... Oh god knows everything,,, yes he knew all will not come,,,, but God do not know everything.... he does not know how to lie or how it is to deceive,, or to temp any man of/to do evil.... for their is no evil in him... he does not know how it feels to be a sinner but knows what happens afterwards, he got to learn lots of things when he came to this earth he created,,, but some things God will not know because He Choses not to know. it is somrthing like a buisness plan, or plans you have to propose to someone, or like plans you have to go about your day,, some people write down all they are going to do for the day, and stick with it. but we have not everything covered they may or may not happen and neither do we have the control over any giving situation that may come like God did. that is why he know our end from the begining because he already had it all plannned out how he will help us who will want the help and for those who will not. God never said, "YOU " as in any pacific person but to "YOU" as in "WHOEVER YOU ARE" and when " Whoever You Are" come this is what You will receive.
SEE GOD FINSHED ALL HIS WORK ON THE SIX DAY, as he shown me when I finished my plan, it was all done,,, all I had to do is sit back and let it all unfold, SEE GOD PLANNED HIS WORK,,, AND HE WORKED HIS PLAN,,,,
I hope this will help someone to see and for those who refuse to see I pray God have mercy on you, as in all " YOU" not a pacific You, just the YOUs who will change the doctrine of God for the doctrine of man,,, which make void the grace of our Lord Jeus Christ for you.... those , them