How to defeat Calvinism

[Lauren]

Ah the arrogance of me should I lift myself worthy of the lashes Christ endured, more worthy than another soul. For All are free to receive, I would never for a minute think I am in anyway more worthy of Gods mercy than any other soul on this earth. Twist scripture all you like but ALL are free to receive the gift of eternal life, the mercy & grace of the Lord Christ Jesus. Dont any of us for one minute think we are special. The only thing special about us is our purity in Christ ALONE.

Is there no arrogance in judging another's motives out of a belief that I (self righteously) know the truth and they do not?

I am sorry, imoss, if what I posted is quick to slice, I do not say it out of anger but out of sheer sadness at what has been put forth as truth by more than one poster in this thread - that people that lean towards calvinism are self important or believe that they are more worthy or special than others, when the exact opposite holds true (at least for this poster).

There was nothing in me that could have for one moment "conjured" up a belief, let alone a faith, in God. There was nothing in me that was seeking or wondering about the possibility of a majestic, sovereign entity. And there sure as heck was nothing good in me. Given these variables, it has seemed a plausible conclusion to me that God chose us first (and certainly not because of anything I did or because I am more deserving than another but because God has a sovereign plan, whatever that may be). This possibility was made even more plausible to me after I was very disobedient to the Lord for many years and was drawn back to Him by Him. Drawn back I say, not crawled back, because I couldn't have even crawled back on my own.

This is not a conclusion that I pigheadedly cling to as I only have my subjective experience to go by which is poor proof indeed. But I just wanted to explain that believing that God chose us first does not automatically equate with believing that you're any better than anyone else.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Imoss,

The point Lauren is getting at, is did you choose God, or did God choose you? If you say you chose Jesus, how did you do it? Repentance is a gift (Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25) so how did you in your own natural ability choose Jesus? Or the larger question to be asked is, 'How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner who is utterly insensible, and hostile to the things of God, believe?'

You're spiritually dead ( 1 Corinthians 2:14), under the dominion of Satan (Ephesians 2:1-5), totally hostile to God (Romans 8:7), and do not seek after Him (Romans 3:10-12). So where did you receive eyes to see?

Did God save you, or does salvation totally depend on man to choose Jesus? Because if it depends on man, then absolutely no one would ever be saved, for we would all be spiritually dead, under the dominion of Satan, and hostile to God -- totally blind.

The only reason anyone ever gets into heaven is because God made a choice just as Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Acts 4, John 6, John 8, and John 10 all proclaim.

“The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’" – John 10:24-30
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Jesus came to give eternal life to the sheep, and there are those who are not a sheep, He didn’t come for them. If God wanted everyone to be saved, then everyone would be saved, for it is written, ‘Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.’ – Psalm 135:6

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

When I return I shall.

Great, I'll be waiting, as so will the world.

 

[Consumed]

love them regardless

 

[charisenexcelcis]

"outos gar egapesen ho theos ton kosmon, oste ton huion ton monogene edowken, hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletai all' exe dzoen aionion." So, I expect that you would like an exposition regarding the two expressions that I have put in red?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I do not believe the two choices that you give, "did you choose God or did God choose you" are in conflict. I cannot choose God without Him drawing me, but I believe that I can reject Him who draws all. That is the great choice that sends me to judgement, not my sin, but my rejection of God.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

"outos gar egapesen ho theos ton kosmon, oste ton huion ton monogene edowken, hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletai all' exe dzoen aionion." So, I expect that you would like an exposition regarding the two expressions that I have put in red?

So where is 'whosoever' in that phrase? It does not say, 'whosoever,' or 'whosoever wills.' As said earlier, 'pas ho pisteuon,' means 'all the believing,' or 'every the believing.' The point I'm getting at, there is no Greek counterpart for 'whosoever.' The term was derived in the 13th century, and it's a possessive pronoun, it was never intended to be used as contemporary English uses it today. All the believing have eternal life, not 'whosoever wills,' which might I add, you were supposed to prove existed in that passage.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

So where is 'whosoever' in that phrase? It does not say, 'whosoever,' or 'whosoever wills.' As said earlier, 'pas ho pisteuon,' means 'all the believing,' or 'every the believing.' The point I'm getting at, there is no Greek counterpart for 'whosoever.' The term was derived in the 13th century, and it's a possessive pronoun, it was never intended to be used as contemporary English uses it today. All the believing have eternal life, not 'whosoever wills,' which might I add, you were supposed to prove existed in that passage.

Absolutely. God loves the world. All who believe will be saved. I think that the "whosoever" is useful in translating some grammatical uses of "pas" but not particularly here. I agree with you on the translation of "pas ho pisteuon."

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Absolutely. God loves the world. All who believe will be saved. I think that the "whosoever" is useful in translating some grammatical uses of "pas" but not particularly here. I agree with you on the translation of "pas ho pisteuon."

Notice that the reason for the giving of the Son in John 3:16 is so that the believing would have eternal life, not 'whosoever wills.'

'Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.' -- John 17:7-12
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[charisenexcelcis]

Notice that the reason for the giving of the Son in John 3:16 is so that the believing would have eternal life, not 'whosoever wills.'

'Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.' -- John 17:7-12
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And what did He ask for: "And now, glorify Thou me together with yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." How marvelous!

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

And what did He ask for: "And now, glorify Thou me together with yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." How marvelous!

Not sure what you're trying to prove with John 17:5 and how that fits into your argument, or if it's just a general statement which is absolutely in favor of the Trinity, and one verse I commonly use to argue for such.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Not sure what you're trying to prove with John 17:5 and how that fits into your argument, or if it's just a general statement which is absolutely in favor of the Trinity, and one verse I commonly use to argue for such.

We disagree on some things, but agree on others. I disagreed with your view on the word "cosmos" and I don't believe in limited atonement. But I accept you as a brother in Christ and believe you to be reasonable and intellegent. "To disagree with honorable men is not to dishonor them" Your verse simple led me to look again at what it was that Jesus was asking of the Father for our benefit.

 

[cionski]

well, calvinism is a good system of biblical truth but this does not necessarily mean that it contains the whole truth. we sometime need to reconsider not just the sovereignty of God but also Human responsibility. and calvinism lacks this.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I could make an argument for flying cows, space monkeys, little green space martians, and magical little fairies.

Or Calvinism..tee hee hee.

 

[imoss]

sigh guess I should stop interceeding... God ****s them all. give me a break, you know not our Lord if you think this.

 

[daddycat]

Arminians and Armenians: not the same. Arminians are followers of the teachings of Arminius. Armenians are members of an ethnic group originating in the country of Armenia. Please don't use them interchangeably.

 

[Lauren]

sigh guess I should stop interceeding... God ****s them all. give me a break, you know not our Lord if you think this.

That's totally not cool - to imply that you know the Lord and we do not because of a doctrinal difference.

I was so spiritually dead that I find it hard to fathom that I chose Him or even ascented to believing without the Holy Spirit doing the work in me for me. I did not come on this thread to dispute calvinism as I'm not theologically equipped to do so, I merely wanted to dispel the notion that believing in predestination means you consider yourself more special than others. But it seems that my post has fallen on deaf ears,.

 

[Lauren]

I do not believe the two choices that you give, "did you choose God or did God choose you" are in conflict. I cannot choose God without Him drawing me, but I believe that I can reject Him who draws all. That is the great choice that sends me to judgement, not my sin, but my rejection of God.

Are you saying that you have the ability to reject Him, but you don't have the ability to choose Him? (just trying to understand)

 

[imoss]

when you think of our Lord, what do you think of? Do you know his Love? do you assume the reservation of that love to be to you alone? To us above others? sorry, thats not the Lord I know, perhaps we know different Lords??. Mine is present & places the burdon of others salvation upon my heart. Why did God send Christ? tell me? What is the point if he's already picked us out? If that is the case I would suspect he wouldnt be pickin little ole me in place of some loyal Jewish fellow. honestly, think about who the Lord is. Christ... think about who he is. He came to save the world. If he didnt then why come? If the "world" was not salvagable and already God had choosen who, why did he come? Why did he perform miracles that we would believe? why did he endure those lashes?? for special ole me? What must I do to be saved? perhaps you all can answer this better than our Lord. HOnestly I see it as prideful to say that we are choosen & the rest are ****ed to hell. If this causes reaction, good. It should because you are operating in a prideful place that would put you above others in the eyes of God. NO... we have a choice. you made that choice the moment you received the Lord just as I did. I didnt appreciate your comment about did I seek... cause I KNOW for a fact this was to pick at me for you knew the answer as we've discussed our conversion before. Why would God place eternity upon our hearts if there was no point?

 

[Lauren]

... cause I KNOW for a fact this was to pick at me for you knew the answer as we've discussed our conversion before.

You've not heard a word I've said, so I'll just leave this now.

As for the above, I'm sure we've discussed our conversions with each other, but I have very, very little memory (short or long term) and do not recall that conversation, let alone the specifics....so it was not to pick at you.