Hypergrace Mockers

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,428
1,353
113
#21
As I am finally beginning to understand these people who attach other things to salvation besides that they are saved: they believe that they are not only saved but something is added to them that prevents them from ever again wanting to sin. That is that they believe that they are no longer able to freely choose but are locked into salvation. It is very like a belief that anyone who is cured of a disease is guaranteed immunity from that disease forever after like being cured of Measles.

I think they are whistling in Dixie.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#23
True we are saved by Grace only, not by our works but it is also true the wages of sin is death. If we do not take our sin to the Lord for forgiveness, sin we repent of, our sin kills us not matter if we had taken sins to the Lord for forgiveness in our past. Scripture is truth, and we earn death through sin that are not forgiven.
So we live forever in this life so long as we keep repenting ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#24
As I am finally beginning to understand these people who attach other things to salvation besides that they are saved: they believe that they are not only saved but something is added to them that prevents them from ever again wanting to sin. That is that they believe that they are no longer able to freely choose but are locked into salvation. It is very like a belief that anyone who is cured of a disease is guaranteed immunity from that disease forever after like being cured of Measles.

I think they are whistling in Dixie.
You could be confusing our spirit / soul and ' physical ( flesh ) . The cure spiritually is not the same physically .
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,160
4,540
113
#25
So we live forever in this life so long as we keep repenting ?
Are you saying we should not have a good conscience in the sight of God??? I refuse to live a life in deliberate sin. I repent of any and all wrongs I may have committed or thought.. It certainly keeps me from darkness and sorrow.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#26
Are you saying we should not have a good conscience in the sight of God??? I refuse to live a life in deliberate sin. I repent of any and all wrongs I may have committed or thought.. It certainly keeps me from darkness and sorrow.
No I'm saying that the wages of sin is death . We all will die at some point because of it .Some who sin very little die young ect.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,944
16,167
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#27
Are you saying we should not have a good conscience in the sight of God??? I refuse to live a life in deliberate sin. I repent of any and all wrongs I may have committed or thought.. It certainly keeps me from darkness and sorrow.
Would you be better served to stop thinking g about yourself and what you think, and serve God and others in love and mercy?

is this not how we break the bond of sin, not refusing to do something?

how many people have refused to do something only to later be brought down

the law is not going to help you
 

Edify

Active member
Jan 27, 2021
197
67
28
#28
We do not have to turn from our sins to be saved.
Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
I thought I would make it a little bigger so you could see it.

Matt 3:8

New International Version
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

New Living Translation
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

English Standard Version
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Berean Study Bible
Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance.

King James Bible
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

New King James Version
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance;

When all translations agree, so should we.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#29
Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
I thought I would make it a little bigger so you could see it.

Matt 3:8

New International Version
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

New Living Translation
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

English Standard Version
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Berean Study Bible
Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance.

King James Bible
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

New King James Version
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance;

When all translations agree, so should we.
Firstly you are picking verses before the cross here . And it doesn't say ' turn from sins ' The ' who ,what ,when ,why observation questions are vital here . Repent from what ,to what, why ,when?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,097
446
83
#30
OSAS implies that a person who is pardoned for a crime against the Almighty can never be found guilty ever again. But this goes against both our natural understanding of crime & punishment as well as the bible's explanation of how the Almighty judges. This is why as SOON as someone begins speaking about OSAS - and one can't speak about Hyper-Grace without OSAS - another member cuts in to push against the idea of having a "license to sin".

OSAS = license to sin. Whether a person sins or not or whether a person wants to sin or not is beside the point; that's not the issue. Possessing a license isn't the same as using that license. What folks who push against OSAS are arguing is that "no license exists".

Now as unfair as it is to assume supporters of OSAS want to continue to sin, it is equally unfair to assume those who push against OSAS are legalists or grace deniers (as we understand the labels to mean in these circles).


Imagine the scnenario:

Our former president was contemplating pre-pardoning himself in case he was brought up on federal charges at a later time. No charges were brought against him, but before leaving office there was talk that he may try this. Is a president's pardon good for just the crime a person is currently guilty of or does it also apply to all future instances that crime is committed?

If I am pardoned by the president for treason this year, can I then commit treason next year immune from the consequences of all crimes of treason? Am I free to commit treason whenever I want since I've been pardoned the first time? Of course not, my pardon was for the crime I committed in the past, else my pardon would be a license to commit treason whenever I wanted. Again, we're not talking about whether I would or not...we're talking about whether a license exists or not.

There's no such thing as once pardoned for a crime always pardoned for all instances of that crime.

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Paul explains that there is no such thing as a license to sin, so OSAS can not exist.

The Almighty alone is the judge who determines which crimes He will pardon and which He will retain. We can make a humble request but ultimately it is up to Him to decide. It's not guaranteed. Yes, His mercy and longsuffering are absolutely immense...but they have a limit, as evident throughout ALL of scripture from OT to NT including the book of Revelation. His mercy will run out one day. This is immutable.

If a Being of the highest authority can pardon your crimes without your effort or input at all, what's stopping that same One from removing your standing with Him for any future crime if He sees fit to? Nothing. If nothing but His mercy puts us in "right standing" in His eyes then nothing is keeping us there...but His mercy.

If He justifies the sinner at His pleasure without our effort or input, He can equally condemn the sinner at His pleasure without our effort or input.

So the full statement should be, "Once saved, always saved as long as one continues in His goodness." This message was preached before the cross and preached after the cross:

Matthew 18:21-35
Messiah explains the parable of the unmerciful servant: He was forgiven by the king of his great debt when he pleaded for mercy, but he refused to forgive others of their debt to him. The king heard of the servant's mercilessness and reverses his own decision making the servant pay the great debt.

The Messiah said the kingdom of heaven, the one He governs now, would be like this. ^^^ His forgiveness can be reversed.


Romans 11:18-22
Paul explains the goodness and severity of The Almighty: The natural branches of Israel were broken off because of their unbelief so that gentile branches could graft into the root, but gentile believers shouldn't boast "but fear" because unless they "continue in His goodness" they can be cut off too. They do not bear the root, the root bears them.

Paul says plainly that those grafted in can be cut off. Same message as Messiah; His mercy can be reversed.

-----

So then with this established, the obvious question follows, "how do I remain in the Almighty's good graces?" which immediately places responsibility and agency back on us - where it belongs - to make sure we are always pleasing to Him so that hopefully He continues to CHOOSE that we remain right in his eyes...but He's completely free to treat us like Job even if we are pleasing to Him, but it's best to not give Him a reason.

We remaining pleasing to Him by remaining obedient and faithful to Him as best as we can at all times. This is the fire that leads to our gradual purification and perfection; to know that His judgment is as real as His love & mercy.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,208
1,729
113
#31
Hypergrace and Easy Believism Mockers

This teacher makes some valid points. Although there is an exception though. There are saved people, who also sadly, mock hyper grace. There are born again Christians who do fall into a works based salvation heresy, and start to mock hyper grace (aka Easy Believism). And so I only disagree with Jack on this particular, since I understand that Christians can fall into legalism, Lordship Salvation, Calvinism, Arminianism, Hard Believism, etc. Just as the Christians at Galatia were being bewitched by the Judaizers. And so just because somebody mocks Hyper Grace or Easy Believism, it does not mean they are lost. They might be lost, or they might not be lost. The issue is, has that person ever trusted in Jesus Christ alone for their Salvation. And besides it is probably even safe to say that about over 85% to 90% of all Christians reject "Hyper Grace and Easy Believism." I guess Easy Believism is not so "Easy" after all.

Other than this though, everything else he says in the video is spot on. We do not have to turn from our sins to be saved. If we have to stop sinning to be saved, then that is works for salvation. And that is heresy. If we have to be deserving of Grace, or do something to merit Grace, then it is not Real Grace. Biblical Grace is unmeritable. Another good point he brings up in the video is when he says a Christian is not named after his sin, (or Identified with his sin). This also is true. There is a difference between a Christian that commits a sin like fornication VERSUS a Lost sinner who is a Fornicator. Likewise, there is a difference between a Christian who committed the sin of stealing VERSUS a lost sinner who is a thief. And what's the difference?? One Person is saved and the other person is Lost. It is that simple. All Lost sinners are named after their sin and identified with their sin since they are still IN their sins. And still dead in Adam. Christians are not named after the sins they commit because they are not in their sins, but rather, they are IN Christ, and there is no sin in Christ. So that's the only difference. Christians are still sinners, but only according their flesh (Old Sin Nature). It is also important to understand that We are Saints according to our Position in Christ (Our Standing) and in accordance with our New Nature (which is Righteous and Holy). And another important truth to understand is that God does not view His children in regard to their Old Man, but He views them in regard to their New Man. God sees us as Saints since he views us in accordance with our New Nature and our Position in His Son (Jesus Christ). And in our Standing, we are Holy, Just, Pure, godly, and Righteous. Even if we are not living holy, we still are Holy. Due to our Standing and Position in Christ. Even if a Christian is living in sin (aka "living like the devil"), still though, his holy and righteous Standing (New Man, New Creature in Christ) is not affected at all.

On the Contrary, no matter how good, and how moral, a lost sinner dead in Adam, tries to live, he is still ungodly, unrighteous, unholy, and unjust. And this is because of his position in Adam, he is still dead In Adam, and Dead in his sins and trespasses.
In conclusion, I am not against "Hyper Grace" or "Easy Believism." We need all the grace we can have. And Because none of us were worthy to be saved. If we are not saved by God's Grace through Faith alone in Christ alone, then we are not saved at all. But thanks be to God that we are saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ alone.


You know I suppose I am a hyper grace believer I didn't used to be but as I have said probably far to much how I struggled with my self worth fear my sins and every failure and am constantly fighting the view of seeing myself as filthy sinner lower than the dirt that worms eat I kind have to rely on his love and grace and even when I messed up bad and was so so low in tears and even fearing damnation he always rushed over and enveloped me in his arms the absolute warmth and tenderness is always shocking to me as if his love and his grace is so deep and so rich that I could never be anything but clean pure holy and precious to me it shocks me every time

I suppose there is a kind of humbleness that comes with this kind of mindset, those who know they are sinners and are unable to deny that they have to completely rely on him for anything good are all the more grateful for his love and grace and they seem to understand it more deeply as well because they live in it they don't just think or study it they don't just believe it is their reality their hope their salvation

Honestly the topic and term of hyper grace is only banned because people couldn't be mature and act like their beliefs claim, as I have also said far to many times if you cannot debate in a clam mature and Christlike manner you shouldn't be debating luckily though it does seem that things have become better here things back then were flourished with war threads and attacks and mocking twisting of scripture holier than though types but that seems to have lessened since then
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
11,245
2,913
113
#32
Firstly you are picking verses before the cross here . And it doesn't say ' turn from sins ' The ' who ,what ,when ,why observation questions are vital here . Repent from what ,to what, why ,when?
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you are either a 'hired-hand, and/or a servant of the dark one'...
absurdity is your m.o. = your time is running out real quick here,
one way or another - your transparency is so clear - a child could read your mind!!!
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#33
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you are either a 'hired-hand, and/or a servant of the dark one'...
absurdity is your m.o. = your time is running out real quick here,
one way or another - your transparency is so clear - a child could read your mind!!!
I can't respond to that because there's nothing to respond to . Just Ad hominem ?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,775
1,257
113
#34
OSAS implies that a person who is pardoned for a crime against the Almighty can never be found guilty ever again. But this goes against both our natural understanding of crime & punishment as well as the bible's explanation of how the Almighty judges. This is why as SOON as someone begins speaking about OSAS - and one can't speak about Hyper-Grace without OSAS - another member cuts in to push against the idea of having a "license to sin".
As Romans 5:12-19 indicated, isn't it the same situation as one who is born in Adam can never be innocent, no matter how much good he does?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#35
You know I suppose I am a hyper grace believer I didn't used to be but as I have said probably far to much how I struggled with my self worth fear my sins and every failure and am constantly fighting the view of seeing myself as filthy sinner lower than the dirt that worms eat I kind have to rely on his love and grace and even when I messed up bad and was so so low in tears and even fearing damnation he always rushed over and enveloped me in his arms the absolute warmth and tenderness is always shocking to me as if his love and his grace is so deep and so rich that I could never be anything but clean pure holy and precious to me it shocks me every time

I suppose there is a kind of humbleness that comes with this kind of mindset, those who know they are sinners and are unable to deny that they have to completely rely on him for anything good are all the more grateful for his love and grace and they seem to understand it more deeply as well because they live in it they don't just think or study it they don't just believe it is their reality their hope their salvation

Honestly the topic and term of hyper grace is only banned because people couldn't be mature and act like their beliefs claim, as I have also said far to many times if you cannot debate in a clam mature and Christlike manner you shouldn't be debating luckily though it does seem that things have become better here things back then were flourished with war threads and attacks and mocking twisting of scripture holier than though types but that seems to have lessened since then
Is that how you see salvation? A pardon ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#36
=
===================
you are either a 'hired-hand, and/or a servant of the dark one'...
absurdity is your m.o. = your time is running out real quick here,
one way or another - your transparency is so clear - a child could read your mind!!!
If anyone claims I'm harsh, please check this post lol.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,208
1,729
113
#38
Is that how you see salvation? A pardon ?
in a sense yes a pardon is an action of forgiving an error or offense is it not? But salvation is also much more than that it's the bonding of man and God the connection and unity that was separated with Adam and eve it is the relationship endeared with God himself
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,275
1,263
113
#39
in a sense yes a pardon is an action of forgiving an error or offense is it not? But salvation is also much more than that it's the bonding of man and God the connection and unity that was separated with Adam and eve it is the relationship endeared with God himself
He shed blood . Its not a ' pardon '
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,208
1,729
113
#40
He shed blood . Its not a ' pardon '
Tell me what is the definition of a pardon to you? his shedding of blood wiping away our sins cleaning the slate for us I fail to understand how these things are in any way separate can you explain what is separate about this?