I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

[epostle]

Suppose you receive a letter froma friend whose word you trust implicitly. A glance at the handwritingand signature assures you that the letter is actually from thisfriend. You thereby establish its genuineness and authenticity, andeven before you read the letter or know its contents you are assuredthat your friend has sent you a message, and that you have hismessage in your hands. This corresponds to the preparatory stages(the praeambula fidei, as theologians call them), described above.Then you read the letter and learn certain facts, which you accept astrue on the authority of your friend. This corresponds to the formalact of faith.

 

[epostle]

So now you want to turn them against me? LOL, just kidding.

As an orthodox christian, I would be more then happy to discuss about iconography.

Yep...

Fascinating topic. Icons tell whole biblical stories and truths. Even the colors have meaning. They were very useful for teaching as most people could not read. The first iconoclasts were the Muslims in the 7th century; they destroyed them. Somehow this behavior went away and didn't rear its ugly head until Johnny Calvinoli.


The painting of an icon is accompanied by much prayer and fasting.

 

[onlinebuddy]

did Jesus not teach us that through him (not ending with him) is the path to his Father. the love Jesus teaches keeps you on that path.
Jesus never said love was the end and those of us here never said it was the end. nor was it said to be the one and only thing that mattered. the points that so many of you are arguing against are points we never mentioned. im not sure i know how else to explain it.

Christ and the Father are one. You are doing the same thing that you accuse me of.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Don't you?
[/COLOR][/FONT]
Thank you for the vote of confidence. But Catholics have brains the same as you and this "blind trust" may exist with 5 year olds but Catholics are supposed to think for themselves. Catholics accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, but there is nothing in the Bible about it being the final authority. Let me explain something about Catholic faith.

[/SIZE]I propose to prove the sanity ofCatholicism by showing -


First, that it appeals to theintellect and is founded, not on mere sentiment or conjecture, orblind prejudice, but upon the rock of reason.


Secondly, that it providessuitable and effective means to enable the individual to deal withthe problems and difficulties of life; that is, it provides apractical working system whereby each one can, with reasonablediligence, save his soul from the contamination of sin, lead a pure,honest, upright life, and thus secure his eternal salvation.


I assert, then, in the firstplace, that Catholicism is sane, because it appeals to man'sintellect and is founded on reason, and does not shrink from or fearthe closest critical or scientific investigation.
First let us consider the act offaith, which lies at the root of Catholicism. An act of faith is, inthe Catholic sense, an act of reason, an assent on adequate groundsto certain intellectual propositions. Outsiders constantlymisunderstand and frequently misrepresent the Catholic act of faith.Hence, to avoid confusion, I will treat the matter in two ways.


First. - I will try to tell youwhat faith is not.


Second. - Then I will try toexplain more fully what it actually is, and to show you howreasonable it is, and how it benefits a sane man to make acts offaith.


(1) First, then, a Catholic actof faith is not mere credulity or a blind acceptance of themarvellous without reasonable grounds. Non-Catholics often creditCatholics with this kind of thing; they imagine Catholics to be folkgaping openmouthed for any strange story to swallow it down whole.


(2) Nor is faith meresentimentalism - i.e., accepting things as true because they give youa comfortable feeling. The Catholic, in believing, is not guided byemotion, but by conviction.


(3) Nor, again, does Catholicismappeal, as the Modernists did, to a special sort of instinct wherebyone reaches out after the Supernatural - apart from intellectualconviction. Modernists taught that the department of faith was sodistinct from that of science that while by faith you believe theResurrection of Christ to be true, scientifically you might deny itstruth; and so with other Christian dogmas. If we Catholics taughtthat kind of thing we could hardly claim that ours is a sanereligious system.


Hence, I repeat, faith is notmere blind superstition, not sentimentalism, not the functioning of aspecial subconscious faculty, whereby the soul grasps the Divine. No!in the true Catholic sense, faith is conviction. The Catholic says,"I KNOW."


Whatis Faith?

Now we come to the positivedeclaration of what faith really is. Religious faith in thereasonable and Catholic sense is an extension or application to thespiritual world of an ordinary intellectual process which allexercise daily, and without the exercise of which our lives as socialbeings would be impossible. This process consists in assenting to thetruth of propositions on the testimony of others. We may acquireknowledge in two ways - either by direct observation (you see a manknocked down by a car in the street), or through the testimony ofothers (you read an account of the accident in the evening paper, orlearn it from a friend).


The last intellectual operation,whereby we assent to the truth of facts (which are, perhaps, beyondthe reach of our own observation) because other men testify to theirtruth, plays an incessant part in our lives. It is in this way mostof our knowledge comes to us - on the authority of others. If youreflect on the method whereby people as a rule acquire scientific,geographical, historical, philosophical knowledge, or if you think ofthe part which books and media play in our lives, you will, Ithink, admit the truth of what I say. We each of us investigate avery small portion of the earth's surface on which we live - namely,the part traversed by the tiny track of our perambulations throughlife. All the other knowledge we have of the world - or of theuniverse - rests on the testimony of others.

NotUnscientific

Now, who will say that suchfaith, such willingness to accept testimony, is unscientific, orunworthy of a rational being? Who will suggest that it is not basedon sound intellectual principles? It may not be easy for you to tracethe process whereby you have come to believe without any doubt in theexistence of Jupiter's satellites, or of icebergs in the Antarctic,or of Hitler or Mussolini. The evidence has come through many almostimperceptible channels, but is such that it excludes all doubt fromyour mind. If you analyze the process, it comes to this: You convinceyourself by direct examination or reasoning of the reliability of thewitness; then you accept his testimony as true. Two things must beclear to you about the witness - (1) That he had ample opportunity tolearn the facts; (2) that he is telling the truth. In other words,that he is not deceived himself, nor wants to deceive you. In a courtof law, the judge and jury must test these two points: Is the witnesstruthful? Has he knowledge of the facts? Once they are convinced ofthese two things, then they accept his evidence, and believe hisstatements to be true.


To a Catholic believer Faith isjust this process. It is not conjecture, nor is it credulity. Itmeans assenting to the truth of certain facts on the evidence of areliable witness, the witness in this case being God Himself. Thatthe facts (e.g., the Trinity, Incarnation, the Real Presence ) arebeyond our ken and cannot be directly tested by us is no more adifficulty to our accepting them (when the evidence is sufficient)than my inability to investigate directly the murder of Julius Caesaror the execution of Mary Queen of Scots militates against my beliefthat these two eminent persons met with violent deaths.

Stepsin the Process

The steps that lead toFaith are these: -


(1) I assure myself by reasoningand argument that God has actually spoken and communicated knowledgeto mankind - that He is a witness to men of truth.


(2) I prove that this knowledgeis still available for use, is actually preserved somewhere in theworld, is in the keeping of somebody from whom I can obtain it.


(3) I learn the contents of themessage, and accept them as God's revelation, on His authority. Thislast mental act is the formal act of faith. The other two processes,for the carrying out of which we rely on our own intellectual acumenand activity (aided by God's grace), are preparatory, and lead up tothe formal act of faith.

Don't you?

How?

there is nothing in the Bible about it being the final authority

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken willcondemn them at the last day. [John 12:48]

But Catholics have brains the same as you and this "blind trust" may exist with 5 year olds but Catholics are supposed to think for themselves.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;[Proverbs 3:5]

 

[onlinebuddy]

No one gets banned for bashing Catholicism, but if Catholics respond to the tidal wave of bashing, misrepresentations, lies, or innocent misunderstandings, this forum has a reputation for it's un-Christian double standard. Excessive persecution of Catholicism is tolerated, perhaps even encouraged, but if Catholics speak up too much, it's bye bye.

I am not aware that this has been happening.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Don't you?
[/COLOR][/FONT]
But Catholics have brains the same as you and this "blind trust" may exist with 5 year olds but Catholics are supposed to think for themselves. Catholics accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, but there is nothing in the Bible about it being the final authority.

[/SIZE]

When Jesus gave a command, don't you think did the thinking?
When the Apostle Paul or Peter gave an instruction, don't you think they did the thinking?
I would say a 5 year old is in a better position to accept the truths of the Bible, rather than adults who have their minds clouded with pride. No wonder Jesus has said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 18:3]

 

[jaybird88]

Christ and the Father are one. You are doing the same thing that you accuse me of.

so when Jesus says through me to the Father, you are saying what Jesus really meant to say was through me to me? that makes no sense but ok

 

[Blain]

Blain,
I agree with you that love would lead a person to the truth. However, in the b/m verse Paul is instructing Timothy to pay close attention to another thing as well:
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers[1 Tim 4:16]
Paul instructs Timothy to pay close attention to two things:
1) Your life...the way you live...love, charity, etc
2) Your doctrine.....your principal teachings (or the beliefs and practices of your church)

Paul said this because one could be very loving, but stray in doctrinal matters(exactly what satan wants). Our doctrine must be in line with the Bible! Note that this could be a salvation issue according to Paul.

So life and doctrine (based on the Bible) go hand-in-hand.

I would urge my Catholic brothers and sisters to examine the doctrine that their church teaches. This does not amount to rebellion; the Bible encourages us to do so.

You still don't understand do you? jesus is love God is love he is the very being of love everything that jesus did was because of love and his heart was absolutely full of love for all of us. There is a reason there are ppl who are Christian by title only and those who are Christian by heart because Love is something that is required to truly be a Christian. A heart full of God's love will naturally follow the correct doctrines will pray with a pure heart that has the power to shake heaven will see through God's eyes and will take on his very nature and divine heart.

Such a Christian will become very strong in the Lord because they know what love is they know who love is and the love that resides inside them and overflows will touch ppls hearts simply by them speaking. So to say you are a Christian without such a love inside you you are only deluding yourself and trust me you will know if you have such a love in you because it isn't simply a feeling and it changes you inside and out you experience it and it connects your heart and God's in a way that you can't imagine a closeness that I would liken to marriage you are no longer tow separate beings but become one

 

[onlinebuddy]

so when Jesus says through me to the Father, you are saying what Jesus really meant to say was through me to me? that makes no sense but ok

Let's not rake up an issue.

 

[MikeHenderson]

How can a person have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit AND teach Doctrines that are against the Truth that God teaches?

If a person does not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit then that person has never accepted Jesus as their lord and Savior.

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

God clearly says ALL have sinned which means Mary was born a sinner and sinned her whole life.

All those who believe and teach Mary was without sin have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Therefore they are not our brothers in Christ.

Before some Catholics can try to say ALL also applies to Jesus, you need to read this verse first.

Hebrews 4:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.


ONLY Jesus was without sin! Mary was never born without sin, Mary was born a sinner!

 

[Blain]

How can a person have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit AND teach Doctrines that are against the Truth that God teaches?

If a person does not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit then that person has never accepted Jesus as their lord and Savior.

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

God clearly says ALL have sinned which means Mary was born a sinner and sinned her whole life.

All those who believe and teach Mary was without sin have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Therefore they are not our brothers in Christ.

Before some Catholics can try to say ALL also applies to Jesus, you need to read this verse first.

Hebrews 4:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.


ONLY Jesus was without sin! Mary was never born without sin, Mary was born a sinner!

Your question at the beginning of your post
(]How can a person have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit AND teach Doctrines that are against the Truth that God teaches?) The answer to that is simple, we Christians do not have the full truth, no one person perfectly knows understands and teaches the correct doctrine, even if we don't realize we all have certain beliefs and certain doctrines that are incorrect and even against the bible. I have no doubt I have incorrect beliefs and doctrines that go against the bible but the holy spirit still burns fiercely inside me and I am saved.

 

[onlinebuddy]

You still don't understand do you? jesus is love God is love he is the very being of love everything that jesus did was because of love and his heart was absolutely full of love for all of us. There is a reason there are ppl who are Christian by title only and those who are Christian by heart because Love is something that is required to truly be a Christian. A heart full of God's love will naturally follow the correct doctrines will pray with a pure heart that has the power to shake heaven will see through God's eyes and will take on his very nature and divine heart.

Such a Christian will become very strong in the Lord because they know what love is they know who love is and the love that resides inside them and overflows will touch ppls hearts simply by them speaking. So to say you are a Christian without such a love inside you you are only deluding yourself and trust me you will know if you have such a love in you because it isn't simply a feeling and it changes you inside and out you experience it and it connects your heart and God's in a way that you can't imagine a closeness that I would liken to marriage you are no longer tow separate beings but become one

If you understand better than me, I have no problem with that. I don't mind learning from you.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Fascinating topic. Icons tell whole biblical stories and truths. Even the colors have meaning. They were very useful for teaching as most people could not read. The first iconoclasts were the Muslims in the 7th century; they destroyed them. Somehow this behavior went away and didn't rear its ugly head until Johnny Calvinoli.

View attachment 138299
The painting of an icon is accompanied by much prayer and fasting.

Thanks for the info. BTW, were you trying to rub people the wrong way? I hope not

 

[onlinebuddy]

Your question at the beginning of your post
(]How can a person have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit AND teach Doctrines that are against the Truth that God teaches?) The answer to that is simple, we Christians do not have the full truth, no one person perfectly knows understands and teaches the correct doctrine, even if we don't realize we all have certain beliefs and certain doctrines that are incorrect and even against the bible. I have no doubt I have incorrect beliefs and doctrines that go against the bible but the holy spirit still burns fiercely inside me and I am saved.

Our fickle minds may not be able to comprehend the full truth, but we are capable of understanding the basic truths.

 

[Blain]

If you understand better than me, I have no problem with that. I don't mind learning from you.

That is good it is always good to be have a teachable and learning heart but you see I only know and understand all this because God personally showed me and taught me this he allowed me to experience his love he poured it into me he gave me the eyes to see and to know and understand what love really is and why it is so important for a believer to have it.

The thing is though not many really know or understand this love many lack it or even don't have it at all. It is rare to find one who does and something I have always asked God is why he chose me out of all the ppl in the world why did he choose me to show and reveal and fill with this love of his, why did he chose to allow me to be able to begin to see through his eyes to love as he does? I am not special or strong in any way I am not wise I am not even that great of a person but even so he chose to do this and I have personally seen how his love will overflow from me. At church in bible study for instance whenever I do speak my words are fueled by love and I give extremely insightful answers with wisdom that is not my own nor did these words come from me.

Everyone is always extremely impressed and always ask me how am I so wise and so strong in the Lord at such a young age, I notice a spark in them I can see that their hearts were provoked impacted that something inside them changed at that moment. They always act as if it was me as if this wisdom and this strength they see is my own but the thing is isn't not even 1% it is because god filled my heart with his love and because of this how I see things how I learn how I believe was influenced and guided by him and I am merely a vessel these words I speak that impress ppl that provoke their hearts that makes that spark that causes that change is him

 

[Blain]

Our fickle minds may not be able to comprehend the full truth, but we are capable of understanding the basic truths.

Yes we are capable of it and yet how many of us really do?

 

[GaryA]

Suppose you receive a letter froma friend whose word you trust implicitly. A glance at the handwritingand signature assures you that the letter is actually from thisfriend. You thereby establish its genuineness and authenticity, andeven before you read the letter or know its contents you are assuredthat your friend has sent you a message, and that you have hismessage in your hands. This corresponds to the preparatory stages(the praeambula fidei, as theologians call them), described above.Then you read the letter and learn certain facts, which you accept astrue on the authority of your friend. This corresponds to the formalact of faith.

Suppose you receive a letter from God Himself - telling you that the "friend whose word you trust implicitly" is really Satan is disguise. And, that he ( Satan ) has deceived you into believing that he ( Satan ) is actually the "cornerstone and foundation of truth" on the earth - granted by God, no less! And, He tells you in this letter that "He did no such thing!" ( grant anyone else the authority to be the "cornerstone and foundation of truth" ) Furthermore, He states in His letter that He alone has all authority -- and that, "this letter" is the only authoritative statement from Himself that He has made to humanity.

Would you consider the possibility that the letter really came from God - and as such, that you should believe it?

The letter is real. It is the Holy Bible. And, it is truly a 'letter' from God -- and, it is truly trying to warn you about your "friend" -- and, you should read it -- and, you should believe it...

Ask yourself:

Why would your "friend" not want you to read the letter?

 

[GaryA]

There is one thing that is "higher" than love -- and, love is borne out of it. That thing is 'truth'.

Love without truth is nothing...

 

[atwhatcost]

Why can't you ask her more questions openly? Isn't this the purpose of this forum ?
Does one really get banned on CC for preaching Catholicism? Why another forum? I seem to be missing out on something.

Other problem. If I tell you the reality of how this works, I get banned. lol

 

[Blain]

There is one thing that is "higher" than love -- and, love is borne out of it. That thing is 'truth'.

Love without truth is nothing...

Truth comes from love for God is love