I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

[Magenta]

I get it. A few months ago I attended a local church that was very "post-modern." The church has a beautiful building, with zero indications of Christianity--no crosses outside, none inside, no banners saying, "Jesus is Risen," etc. They have an in-house coffee bar where you can get a latte and take it into the "auditorium." (When I entered there, a person told me that they do NOT call it a "sanctuary"). They have a stage with video-friendly backdrop and no Christian symbols of any kind. Their worship team performs on this stage and it's broadcast over two big screens. The week I attended, they had a video-sermon (their pastor was gone that Sunday). The sermon was wrapping up a cycle of study and while it referenced a particular verse, the sermon seemed to focus on "living your best life." As the service closed, they reminded people that they could make their donations to the church via the card-taking machines at the exits, or through envelopes by the door.

Now, if my description sounds pretty "judgey" to you, that's because it is. My initial response to the church was, "You've got to be kidding me!" But God corrected me.


I love Christian symbolism, but having it doesn't make a person or group more holy. I find it odd to treat the place where worship occurs so casually, but maybe some people find this casual view more approachable and less fearful. The worship portion seemed like "entertainment" to me, but I attend a church where people notoriously don't sing. I could tell that I would probably have some theological differences with the approach to scripture, but I also apparently visited at an odd moment (the pastor was out, AND it was the wrap-up of a series). For all I know the previous six sermons were really bathed in scripture. And while the use of card-machines seems very consumeristic, I am the queen of never carrying cash, so it's probably rather convenient for much of the congregation.


So, I had to repent of my harsh judgement. It's not the kind of church where I would feel comfortable regularly worshipping, but it was uppity of me to presume that MY view of things was the only (and best) way. God can and does draw people in all kinds of ways.

Your description did not sound to be judging at all, just a simple reporting, actually. That it struck you as somewhat strange I can certainly understand, especially knowing that you are probably more used to a Catholic church (an assumption on my part, do please excuse me if I am wrong.) I may have even found it strange. The first few times I went any place where people did more than sit, kneel, and stand on command, I was uncomfortable. People raising their hands in the air to worship spontaneously? Weird! People saying "Amen" as punctuation of their own free will? Equally weird! As a non Christian attending new age style Sunday services, I thought it strange that Jesus was mentioned, since I thought the idea was to get away from religion. At one point newly reborn, I was attending a church where I loved the people, the pastor, and his family, but the Sunday service was off putting to me, being such a throwback to Catholicism. And yet I spent many hours with the same people outside of Sunday service hours, seeking the Lord through prayer, praise, mediation, song, worship etc. More recently, for the last quite a few years actually, I have been attending a church that offers me much of the same minus any semblance of Catholicism. It is not in a church building; we assemble the rented space for our worship and take it down each week. Probably much closer to what worship was like in the apostolic age. Mary, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the last few months since I have been a member, but I have to run now. See you later, and God bless!

 

[Angela53510]

Okay...I started a long post, then deleted it. But I'll say this: The fact that I'm a "cradle Catholic" doesn't mean I don't have lots of experience with other kinds of churches and biblical interpretations. The reason I'm still Catholic is

1. Most of the issues that people have with the Catholic church are non-essentials. Now, don't presume I'm saying that they are not important. Just that they are not issues of orthodoxy. We've seen on these boards that non-Catholics will even argue amongst themselves about various doctrinal issues that are not issues of orthodoxy.

2. Because I believe it is God's will for me. The RCC adheres to orthodoxy. I understand how someone who objects to the beliefs of the RCC could ever believe that God would have someone be involved with the RCC, but I understand the rationale behind (most) of these beliefs (it's a work in process. As many of you know, the RCC believes in using 20 words where four would suffice, so reading the background of these beliefs takes time).

3. I experience the presence of God in the liturgy. Just as charismatics might experience God's presence through speaking in tongues, or evangelicals through the parsing of scripture, or Quakers through sitting quietly, I get it through the celebration of the Eucharist.

I will agree with you that the RCC is orthodox regarding their Christology. They have a very high view of Jesus, and that is good.

As for the liturgy, I have no problem with people who were raised in that kind of setting, or for that matter, people who were not, finding God within the liturgy. When my husband and I attended mass for my uncle who had died, I was quite touched by the liturgy, listening to it and experiencing it. My husband, however, was watching people and felt that most people were just doing the whole thing rote. No feeling at all. And perhaps he had a point, too!

However, the RCC is anything but Orthodox when it comes to Soteriology. The way to be saved by Rome is a path full of complicated rules, rituals, backwards interpretations of Scripture, to say nothing of not ever being assured of your salvation. And I have that from several Catholic friends, who showed me where it was in their catechism.

You seem to have posted you believe that Jesus alone saves. Am I right, or do you believe that Jesus, in association with the RCC saves?

Because that is simply not found anywhere in the Bible. If being saved by the church was that important, surely one of the apostles would have seen fit to write it down in their writings? Actually, to make a doctrine, you need to see the same thing more than once - preferably by different people. And that includes non-Catholic denominations who take one verse and base a whole church on it.

So, are you trusting solely in Jesus, PoetMary, or do you have some sort of combination of Jesus + church. Or church + Jesus going on in your soteriology?

 

[atwhatcost]

It isn't necessary for debate to be anyone's agenda... it will still occur.

If you don't believe that, just look around.
: )

Doctrinal beliefs represent the very foundation of a person's worldview;
when a person's worldview is challenged or opposed, it will result in contention.

There is nothing either of us can do to change human nature.

Agreed completely. But there is something I can do when it goes from arguing doctrine to attacking people.

 

[atwhatcost]

I do believe that if they study the Bible and compare it to their beliefs that God will lead them out....however, I also believe that if Jesus were to come right this moment and there were sincere Catholics living up to the light of truth that they have that have that relationship with God and have accepted Jesus as their Savior that they would be saved as they were living up to the truth they had been given...

We are all on different levels in our walk with God some have more light or truth than others do and Jesus did say He had others that were not of this fold....I'll get the verse......


John 10:16King James Version (KJV)[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Luther didn't leave the RCC because he hoped to change it from the inside.

I didn't leave for years because I made a promise. (One I ultimately couldn't keep, but I made a promise.)

I have heard of others staying to bring change and/or to evangelize.

I just cannot believe out of the history of the RCC there were only maybe ten saved in it. I have trouble believing there are only ten now. (Gen. 18:32-33)

 

[atwhatcost]

Okay...I started a long post, then deleted it. But I'll say this: The fact that I'm a "cradle Catholic" doesn't mean I don't have lots of experience with other kinds of churches and biblical interpretations. The reason I'm still Catholic is

1. Most of the issues that people have with the Catholic church are non-essentials. Now, don't presume I'm saying that they are not important. Just that they are not issues of orthodoxy. We've seen on these boards that non-Catholics will even argue amongst themselves about various doctrinal issues that are not issues of orthodoxy.

2. Because I believe it is God's will for me. The RCC adheres to orthodoxy. I understand how someone who objects to the beliefs of the RCC could ever believe that God would have someone be involved with the RCC, but I understand the rationale behind (most) of these beliefs (it's a work in process. As many of you know, the RCC believes in using 20 words where four would suffice, so reading the background of these beliefs takes time).

3. I experience the presence of God in the liturgy. Just as charismatics might experience God's presence through speaking in tongues, or evangelicals through the parsing of scripture, or Quakers through sitting quietly, I get it through the celebration of the Eucharist.

I wish I could ask you more questions openly, but I fear you'd get banned for preaching Catholicism. (I really like crossnote's idea for another forum. lol)

 

[onlinebuddy]

I'm not wasting my time and I'm not getting confused I am actually learning a lot, it seems the Catholics are more like us that we thought. Yes they have different beliefs and honestly they believe they are the top authority of the church of Christ but they agree that the deep love and relationship with God is vital and that love is the mark of a true believer, they also have a lot of the same issues we do like ppl twisting scripture to fit their own beliefs and people who claim to be for Christ but don't love and Jesus is their messiah. Although I have to admit they are not Christians as some may claim

I understand what you have set out to do, and I wish you all the best!

 

[fakefemale]

I joined a Catholic forum to better understand their faith and their ways. Now I have heard many Christians say the Catholic faith is heresy and that they are pagan and not saved but I am not one to believe everything I hear I have to find out for myself. So I made my first thread and asked certain questions that is mainly asked about the Catholics like about praying to mary and why they need a pope and such and I got the normal answers that I expected but I also asked said this, for a Christian love is the mark of a true believer, to be love above all else to know love to see out of love and I also mentioned that just as important for the believer is the intimate love and relationship between God and us and I asked them if this was also true for the Catholics.

Based on what I have heard from fellow Christians I half expected them to not really agree but sort of say it's but add something to kind fit their own views but instead they excitedly agreed I saw a real passion for God in them.
Now I don't much about the Catholic faith but I intend to find out and then I will judge for myself if Catholics are heresy or not with God's help of course.

Remember there is only one God in three, if Mary was apart of the trinity then God would no longer be one in three

But one in four.

 

[onlinebuddy]

No I stand by what I said and this is why, if you bear this mark then you are saved you are his child because this love I speak of is not our own it is not the kind of love the human heart knows it's love that far deeper and far stronger than we can imagine, a single drop of his love the love that comes from his heart only is more than our bodies can handle and I know from experience. The thing is this love is not just a feeling it is not something that comes and goes, if one has this love in their heats they naturally see through God's eyes they naturally love with his own heart they literally become just like jesus and naturally follow his words and teachings.

This love of God's changes who we are how we see how and what we believe our ways of doing things even our thoughts, so if a Catholic bears this mark then naturally they will follow God's heart and his ways

Love is a means to an end. Christ is the end.
This does not work vice versa.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I would agree with that. Do the research on the RCC and not on the people, because we already know that God has people within her. But it is the entity of the RCC itself with all of her rites, rituals and dogmas that need to be investigated.

Very true.
The problem with the clergy-laity setup of the catholic church is that the average catholic does not know the bible, and the clergy use the Bible to support their dogma.
No doubt, Catholics are very loving and responsible people, who are respected all over the world. They are a self sufficient and loving community that does not bother to know much about the history of their church; because that's supposed to be the responsibility of the clergy, whom they blindly trust. I would encourage my Catholic friends to accept the Bible as the final authority, and not their dogma.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Again as I said it's more than loving people, look at Jesus look at all the things he did for ppl how he taught how he showed mercy how he prayed how far he was willing to go for us do you know what fueled his actions? Love. Love at least God's love is a supernatural steroid for a believer and without such a love without knowing such a love you will never truly know God nor truly see as he does.

When I became saved I asked God what does it mean to be a Christian how can I become strong in him and he gave me the best advice I ever received, seek love above all else and everything else will fall into place

Blain,
I agree with you that love would lead a person to the truth. However, in the b/m verse Paul is instructing Timothy to pay close attention to another thing as well:
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers[1 Tim 4:16]
Paul instructs Timothy to pay close attention to two things:
1) Your life...the way you live...love, charity, etc
2) Your doctrine.....your principal teachings (or the beliefs and practices of your church)

Paul said this because one could be very loving, but stray in doctrinal matters(exactly what satan wants). Our doctrine must be in line with the Bible! Note that this could be a salvation issue according to Paul.

So life and doctrine (based on the Bible) go hand-in-hand.

I would urge my Catholic brothers and sisters to examine the doctrine that their church teaches. This does not amount to rebellion; the Bible encourages us to do so.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Love is a means to an end. Christ is the end.
This does not work vice versa.

On second thoughts, it does work vice verse...meaning that Christ will lead you to love.

1) Love may lead you to Christ
and
2) Christ will lead you to (agape) love
Whichever way you take it, the point is that : Christ is the end- the goal, the destination!
So the glory goes to Christ!

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

So today Im actually going to a catholic church

Its for my friends class assignment, he has to go to a religious gathering that he is not associated with, he thought about going to a Jewish one, but picked catholic because its far more common around here, he wants me to go because its easier than going alone

Should be fun.

 

[PennEd]

Okay...I started a long post, then deleted it. But I'll say this: The fact that I'm a "cradle Catholic" doesn't mean I don't have lots of experience with other kinds of churches and biblical interpretations. The reason I'm still Catholic is

1. Most of the issues that people have with the Catholic church are non-essentials. Now, don't presume I'm saying that they are not important. Just that they are not issues of orthodoxy. We've seen on these boards that non-Catholics will even argue amongst themselves about various doctrinal issues that are not issues of orthodoxy.

2. Because I believe it is God's will for me. The RCC adheres to orthodoxy. I understand how someone who objects to the beliefs of the RCC could ever believe that God would have someone be involved with the RCC, but I understand the rationale behind (most) of these beliefs (it's a work in process. As many of you know, the RCC believes in using 20 words where four would suffice, so reading the background of these beliefs takes time).

3. I experience the presence of God in the liturgy. Just as charismatics might experience God's presence through speaking in tongues, or evangelicals through the parsing of scripture, or Quakers through sitting quietly, I get it through the celebration of the Eucharist.

Thanks for replying Mary. Please don't interpret my questions as an attack, but you didn't really address my question. How can confessing your sins to a priest to have him grant forgiveness after reciting 10 hail marys and 5 Our Fathers be non-essential?

How can trying to BUY your loved ones graduation from purgatory to heaven through mass cards be non-essential? How can praying to the dead, Mary included, to intervene on our behalf be non- essential? The list goes on Mary, but you get the idea. these ARE very essential issues. Would you please pray on these questions and give me an answer? Mary, I can't tell you how many friends and relatives I have that remain catholic. And I pray they would accept Jesus ALONE as their Savior, but they believe these false, anti-Biblical doctrines, and I truly fail to see how this fundamental principle of Faith in Jesus' sacrificial death ALONE and these other doctrines can be reckoned . Thanks again Mary, and may the Lord Bless you and your family.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I wish I could ask you more questions openly, but I fear you'd get banned for preaching Catholicism. (I really like crossnote's idea for another forum. lol)

Why can't you ask her more questions openly? Isn't this the purpose of this forum ?
Does one really get banned on CC for preaching Catholicism? Why another forum? I seem to be missing out on something.

 

[MikeHenderson]

I noticed PoetMary never answered my question, but it does not matter.

Tell me JesusLives, do you believe Mary was born without sin? Do you JesusLives believe Mary is our Mediator?

NOBODY who teaches Mary was without sin and Mary is our Mediator has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Ephesians 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

2 Peter 1:21
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

We CANNOT speak the Truth without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All those who teach lies do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The fact that Catholics believe they do not receive Salvation until after they die proves NO Catholics has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If what you teach PoetMary and JesusLives is NOT in the Scriptures, then what you are teaching are lies from Satan. Nobody who HAS received Salvation AND the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit will ever teach the opposite of what God says.

You must ask yourselves PoetMary and JesusLives, is it worth spending Eternity in the Lake of Fire just to teach what the Catholic Church says? For you are not hurting me by teaching Mary was without sin. You are not hurting me by teaching Mary is our Mediator. You are not hurting me by teaching Mary can hear and answer our prayers.

Who you are hurting is yourself! Its you who will pay the price for opposing God and what He says. Its you who will be tossed into the Lake of Fire.

Repent, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and accept the Salvation He has for you. Reject Mary, reject the lies of the Catholic Church. Receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and join us in entering into Heaven for all Eternity!

 

[onlinebuddy]

Hey Lynn,

I am born again. I do know I'm a Christian. I have no doubts that I have the Holy Spirit within me.

Here's where the confusion may be. In my "testimony" I have no pointed experience where I go from "I am a terrible sinner" to "I want to know God." Because I lack a drama-filled conversion incident, some people presume that I am not a Christian. So, here's how my story goes: I've always believed. I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. When I say "believe," I don't just mean "intellectual assent." I mean I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. I agree that I have need of Jesus as my Savior. I accept the work of Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit within me. I maintain a relationship with God and seek to do his will. I also make every effort to live the sort of life a Christian is meant to live. I understand that my ability to live this life is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit within me.

Also, I *am* a person who believes that baptism is a sacrament (which several denominations believe...not just Roman Catholics). So, when I look at the trajectory of my life, I trace the beginning of the work of the Holy Spirit within me to THAT moment. A non-Catholic might look at my life and say, "Well, she never had a conversion moment...she is not saved." Other protestants I've met would say something like this, "I don't believe your baptism meant anything, but based on what I know about you and your life, it seems like your conversion was a gradual process instead of a dramatic moment."

(As an aside, I've met cradle-Protestants of various denominations who have a similar story of being raised in the faith and always loving Jesus. They might ask their parents to be baptized at say...age 5....not because they had an a dramatic experience at age 5, but because they realize what they believe and want to be baptized to express this belief. They have told me that they, too, have the same struggle with people disregarding their testimonies because they lack that climactic drama-filled moment. Eventually, to spare themselves the constant heartache--and headache--of having their testimony vivisected, they'll just slightly change how they tell the story so that it pleases the hearers).

What's interesting to me is that when I hear those dramatic testimonies from people, more often than not I notice that God was at work in them for a long, long time before they ever said, "Yes" to God. If you dig deeper, they'll gladly tell you that people were praying for them and their conversion. The bible says, "It's your [God's] kindness that leads us to repentance". While on the surface it may seem that a person is just going along doing their thing and then BAM God go after them in a single moment, I think that's just surface perception. That's because God is subtle.

Additionally, when I was much younger I went through phases of questioning whether or not I was saved because my story didn't match what people expected. People (who didn't really know me or my walk) told me I wasn't saved because I didn't have some memorable, drama-filled, conversion experience. When I would point out that I was living my life for God, they would then claim that I was trying to earn my salvation." (See the Catch-22 here? People will talk about believers bearing "fruit" but if you point to the fact that you've produced fruit, they'll tell you you're relying on your own works). The answer (for these people) was for me to have a (fake) conversion experience--and by "fake" I mean that these people wanted me to walk through some kind of process that I wasn't actually spiritually experiencing. I was already at the END of that process with the Holy Spirit within me. Anyway, this created a lot of anxiety for me because the desire of my heart was to love and serve God. The idea that I might not be doing so pained me. After a lot of anxiety and prayer regarding what these people said, here's what God said to me, "You are mine." He also let me know that I needed to not worry about the perceptions of others...it was His that mattered.

So this is my conundrum. I know I'm a Christian, but when certain people ask "when did you become a Christian," and I say, "I've always believed," they get really mad. They presume I'm playing fast-and-loose with scripture, or that I'm somehow denying their own experience, or that I'm trying to earn my way to God. I have evidence of my faith within my life (both internal and external). I could LIE and invent some kind of story to tell people so they would believe I was a Christian, but that would be (in my mind) a significant ethical compromise. Not only would I be lying about myself, but I'd be falsely reporting about the work of God within me.

Of course, there are plenty of other Christians who take me for my word and simply observe my life. After some observation, they will conclude that I'm accurately self-reporting because my actions and words are consistent.

PoetMary,
Thank you for your testimony. It would be foolish to argue whether you are saved or not.
Having said that, let me tell you that I do not believe that a dramatic experience is necessary in order to be sure of one's salvation.
I also do not believe that it is necessary to hear an inner voice of God (like you have) in order to be sure of one's salvation.
We are saved through faith in Jesus by grace, because the Bible says it....I repeat: because the Bible says it. That's enough! God does not lie!
The Bible is our standard of truth!

Now, while our subjective experiences are between us and God, these experiences may not always do much for those whom we share our faith with. I say this because we can't tell them to expect the same experience that we've had.

Therefore there's one thing we definitely have to do. We've got to bring them to the Bible (and not to man-made traditions), and let the Word speak to them and convict them.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. [ Hebrews 4:12 ]

The Holy Spirit assures (guarantees) us of our salvation. The Holy Spirit is a deposit (earnest) that God has placed within us, assuring us that all other promises (including our salvation) will come true.
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[SUP]14[/SUP]who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory. [Ephesians 1:13-14}

It is therefore absolutely essential to ensure that we and the church we belong to are in line with the Bible.

 

[jaybird88]

Love is a means to an end. Christ is the end.
This does not work vice versa.

did Jesus not teach us that through him (not ending with him) is the path to his Father. the love Jesus teaches keeps you on that path.
Jesus never said love was the end and those of us here never said it was the end. nor was it said to be the one and only thing that mattered. the points that so many of you are arguing against are points we never mentioned. im not sure i know how else to explain it.

 

[epostle]

Why can't you ask her more questions openly? Isn't this the purpose of this forum ?
Does one really get banned on CC for preaching Catholicism? Why another forum? I seem to be missing out on something.

No one gets banned for bashing Catholicism, but if Catholics respond to the tidal wave of bashing, misrepresentations, lies, or innocent misunderstandings, this forum has a reputation for it's un-Christian double standard. Excessive persecution of Catholicism is tolerated, perhaps even encouraged, but if Catholics speak up too much, it's bye bye.

 

[GuessWho]

What's also interesting to me is the level of vitriol that people have for the RCC, and yet the Orthodox Church is spared. Ironically, the RCC and Orthodox espouse many of the same theological ideas. Yet there is no anti-Orthodox message board on here. People don't consistently start conversations in the chatrooms about how the Orthodox are going to hell, etc.

So now you want to turn them against me? LOL, just kidding.

You never hear people discuss iconography, for example.

As an orthodox christian, I would be more then happy to discuss about iconography.

Most Protestants don't even know anything about the Orthodox Church.

Yep...

 

[epostle]

Very true.
The problem with the clergy-laity setup of the catholic church is that the average catholic does not know the bible, and the clergy use the Bible to support their dogma.

Don't you?

No doubt, Catholics are very loving and responsible people, who are respected all over the world. They are a self sufficient and loving community that does not bother to know much about the history of their church; because that's supposed to be the responsibility of the clergy, whom they blindly trust. I would encourage my Catholic friends to accept the Bible as the final authority, and not their dogma.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. But Catholics have brains the same as you and this "blind trust" may exist with 5 year olds but Catholics are supposed to think for themselves. Catholics accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, but there is nothing in the Bible about it being the final authority. Let me explain something about Catholic faith.

I propose to prove the sanity ofCatholicism by showing -


First, that it appeals to theintellect and is founded, not on mere sentiment or conjecture, orblind prejudice, but upon the rock of reason.


Secondly, that it providessuitable and effective means to enable the individual to deal withthe problems and difficulties of life; that is, it provides apractical working system whereby each one can, with reasonablediligence, save his soul from the contamination of sin, lead a pure,honest, upright life, and thus secure his eternal salvation.


I assert, then, in the firstplace, that Catholicism is sane, because it appeals to man'sintellect and is founded on reason, and does not shrink from or fearthe closest critical or scientific investigation.
First let us consider the act offaith, which lies at the root of Catholicism. An act of faith is, inthe Catholic sense, an act of reason, an assent on adequate groundsto certain intellectual propositions. Outsiders constantlymisunderstand and frequently misrepresent the Catholic act of faith.Hence, to avoid confusion, I will treat the matter in two ways.


First. - I will try to tell youwhat faith is not.


Second. - Then I will try toexplain more fully what it actually is, and to show you howreasonable it is, and how it benefits a sane man to make acts offaith.


(1) First, then, a Catholic actof faith is not mere credulity or a blind acceptance of themarvellous without reasonable grounds. Non-Catholics often creditCatholics with this kind of thing; they imagine Catholics to be folkgaping openmouthed for any strange story to swallow it down whole.


(2) Nor is faith meresentimentalism - i.e., accepting things as true because they give youa comfortable feeling. The Catholic, in believing, is not guided byemotion, but by conviction.


(3) Nor, again, does Catholicismappeal, as the Modernists did, to a special sort of instinct wherebyone reaches out after the Supernatural - apart from intellectualconviction. Modernists taught that the department of faith was sodistinct from that of science that while by faith you believe theResurrection of Christ to be true, scientifically you might deny itstruth; and so with other Christian dogmas. If we Catholics taughtthat kind of thing we could hardly claim that ours is a sanereligious system.


Hence, I repeat, faith is notmere blind superstition, not sentimentalism, not the functioning of aspecial subconscious faculty, whereby the soul grasps the Divine. No!in the true Catholic sense, faith is conviction. The Catholic says,"I KNOW."


Whatis Faith?

Now we come to the positivedeclaration of what faith really is. Religious faith in thereasonable and Catholic sense is an extension or application to thespiritual world of an ordinary intellectual process which allexercise daily, and without the exercise of which our lives as socialbeings would be impossible. This process consists in assenting to thetruth of propositions on the testimony of others. We may acquireknowledge in two ways - either by direct observation (you see a manknocked down by a car in the street), or through the testimony ofothers (you read an account of the accident in the evening paper, orlearn it from a friend).


The last intellectual operation,whereby we assent to the truth of facts (which are, perhaps, beyondthe reach of our own observation) because other men testify to theirtruth, plays an incessant part in our lives. It is in this way mostof our knowledge comes to us - on the authority of others. If youreflect on the method whereby people as a rule acquire scientific,geographical, historical, philosophical knowledge, or if you think ofthe part which books and media play in our lives, you will, Ithink, admit the truth of what I say. We each of us investigate avery small portion of the earth's surface on which we live - namely,the part traversed by the tiny track of our perambulations throughlife. All the other knowledge we have of the world - or of theuniverse - rests on the testimony of others.

NotUnscientific

Now, who will say that suchfaith, such willingness to accept testimony, is unscientific, orunworthy of a rational being? Who will suggest that it is not basedon sound intellectual principles? It may not be easy for you to tracethe process whereby you have come to believe without any doubt in theexistence of Jupiter's satellites, or of icebergs in the Antarctic,or of Hitler or Mussolini. The evidence has come through many almostimperceptible channels, but is such that it excludes all doubt fromyour mind. If you analyze the process, it comes to this: You convinceyourself by direct examination or reasoning of the reliability of thewitness; then you accept his testimony as true. Two things must beclear to you about the witness - (1) That he had ample opportunity tolearn the facts; (2) that he is telling the truth. In other words,that he is not deceived himself, nor wants to deceive you. In a courtof law, the judge and jury must test these two points: Is the witnesstruthful? Has he knowledge of the facts? Once they are convinced ofthese two things, then they accept his evidence, and believe hisstatements to be true.


To a Catholic believer Faith isjust this process. It is not conjecture, nor is it credulity. Itmeans assenting to the truth of certain facts on the evidence of areliable witness, the witness in this case being God Himself. Thatthe facts (e.g., the Trinity, Incarnation, the Real Presence ) arebeyond our ken and cannot be directly tested by us is no more adifficulty to our accepting them (when the evidence is sufficient)than my inability to investigate directly the murder of Julius Caesaror the execution of Mary Queen of Scots militates against my beliefthat these two eminent persons met with violent deaths.

Stepsin the Process

The steps that lead toFaith are these: -


(1) I assure myself by reasoningand argument that God has actually spoken and communicated knowledgeto mankind - that He is a witness to men of truth.


(2) I prove that this knowledgeis still available for use, is actually preserved somewhere in theworld, is in the keeping of somebody from whom I can obtain it.


(3) I learn the contents of themessage, and accept them as God's revelation, on His authority. Thislast mental act is the formal act of faith. The other two processes,for the carrying out of which we rely on our own intellectual acumenand activity (aided by God's grace), are preparatory, and lead up tothe formal act of faith.