I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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So you think just because she was baptized as a baby now that she is an adult she has not accepted Jesus as her Savior and that she can think for herself?

Thats not what I am saying at all. Ive made myself perfectly clear.

How do you know what her relationship is with God? I dont.

Can you see into her heart and know her motives? Its apparent her motive is to hold on to her "saved" statement although it contradicts the gospel of Christ!

I can't so if you can you are certainly more righteous than I am. I stand on Gods word. There is only one way to salvation. Baptism isnt one of them.

So why are you attacking her? I am NOT attacking. I am being persistent. Are you attacking me and judging me?
I was asking questions not attacking but it is clear that CC does not care too much for our Catholic brothers and sisters. If you want to go after the organization I'm with you, but we don't know the people who have been raised in the faith with pure hearts.....God will save them if they are following them with all their hearts and souls as many have obeyed and followed Him. Leaving the system.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
~Proverbs 19:11
A person's wisdom yields patience; it is to one's glory to overlook an offense.

~Luke 6:27
"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luke 6:28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Also a good explanation of how I can see someone on ignore. lol
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,887
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I agree with you but the OP made this thread as a way to gain understanding...
Actually what Blain said was that he joined a Catholic forum to better understand their faith and their ways. This thread seemed more a reporting of what he was doing there, and what he finds there. Others weighed in on how we feel Catholic beliefs defy what is explicitly taught in Scripture. Of course other things have happened in the mean time... lots of finger pointing going on from all quarters and angles.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Bible discussion, among people of vastly differing views, will necessarily result in debate.

There is nothing else which could logically be expected.







You don't come to this forum often, do you? When I bring up a topic, nine times out of ten, I'm studying something, don't get it, so ask. Can't really debate out of that simply because how do I debate that which I don't understand yet?

Others come on here sharing something they learned.

Others come on here to preach.

Sure debates happen too, but that's not everyone's agenda. That wasn't Blain's agenda.

I really wouldn't mind seeing a debate forum. Sort of like the News forum -- I'd know better than show up too often. I'm not really good at keeping my opinions to myself.

Can you tell?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
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And actually you are adding to it! You come in at the end zone and buddy up to a gal whom I just what an answer from! It isnt a difficult question! Why is that so bad that I want her to see how her statement contradicts GODS WORD? Why do you put forth that I am doing wrong or attacking?
That is not where I am coming from at all. Perhaps you do not understand because you did afterall marry a man who still claims to be a catholic . He doesnt go to the catholic church anymore but yet still claims the title.
There is a delusional disconnect going on here.
So with the original post in mind do you have anything to add on how to better understand Catholics? Where do we put someone like Mother Teresa? Or because she was Catholic she is just automatically going to hell? We don't know what is on peoples hearts God does. You also don't know my heart or tourists heart as I don't know what is on your heart but I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you may also be truly sincere with good Godly intentions. I just don't know... but on a Christian site if we say we are Christians we should be given a chance and love and support each other because even Jesus said if they are not against us they are for us......or let me go get the verse....

~
Luke 9:
49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,887
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I was asking questions not attacking but it is clear that CC does not care too much for our Catholic brothers and sisters. If you want to go after the organization I'm with you, but we don't know the people who have been raised in the faith with pure hearts.....God will save them if they are following them with all their hearts and souls as many have obeyed and followed Him. Leaving the system.
Do you think Roman Catholics need to leave the RCC? Your last sentence seems to indicate that...
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
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You don't come to this forum often, do you? When I bring up a topic, nine times out of ten, I'm studying something, don't get it, so ask. Can't really debate out of that simply because how do I debate that which I don't understand yet?

Others come on here sharing something they learned.

Others come on here to preach.

Sure debates happen too, but that's not everyone's agenda. That wasn't Blain's agenda.

I really wouldn't mind seeing a debate forum. Sort of like the News forum -- I'd know better than show up too often. I'm not really good at keeping my opinions to myself.

Can you tell?

It isn't necessary for debate to be anyone's agenda... it will still occur.

If you don't believe that, just look around.
: )

Doctrinal beliefs represent the very foundation of a person's worldview;
when a person's worldview is challenged or opposed, it will result in contention.

There is nothing either of us can do to change human nature.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
I was asking questions not attacking but it is clear that CC does not care too much for our Catholic brothers and sisters. If you want to go after the organization I'm with you, but we don't know the people who have been raised in the faith with pure hearts.....God will save them if they are following HIM with all their hearts and souls as many have obeyed and followed Him. Leaving the system.
My first post had them but it was supposed to be Him....fixed it in red above....5 min change too short.
 
Jun 23, 2015
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So with the original post in mind do you have anything to add on how to better understand Catholics? Where do we put someone like Mother Teresa? Or because she was Catholic she is just automatically going to hell? We don't know what is on peoples hearts God does. You also don't know my heart or tourists heart as I don't know what is on your heart but I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you may also be truly sincere with good Godly intentions. I just don't know... but on a Christian site if we say we are Christians we should be given a chance and love and support each other because even Jesus said if they are not against us they are for us......or let me go get the verse....

~
Luke 9:
49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."
What you have done here is bring in many other topics to ponder. I am not interested.
I have pinned down what I am wanting to hear and Ill keep pinning it down. If I was against her I wouldnt persist!!
I am against her standing by a statement that opposes scripture! How many times do I have to say it?!!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,887
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My first post had them but it was supposed to be Him....fixed it in red above....5 min change too short.
Even when I check and double check my posts, using the advanced editor, I still have to make changes after posting sometimes, and I always try to get such changes accomplished within the first minute, because then it does not show as being altered at all... the editor itself sometimes makes layout changes I did not intend. Small errors such as the one you corrected are harder to catch first time through, because it is not a spelling error which browsers will often underline (making it easier to catch), or a layout error which is often easy to spot. The first site I posted on for four years did not allow any changes at all. The second site I posted on allowed changes similar to here, but then changed it so that any alteration after posting showed as an edit; the one minute grace period was removed. Sometimes when I read a post with an error in it I can very easily see the error and correct it in my own mind, but not always. Thank you for clarifying :)
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
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Do you think Roman Catholics need to leave the RCC? Your last sentence seems to indicate that...
I do believe that if they study the Bible and compare it to their beliefs that God will lead them out....however, I also believe that if Jesus were to come right this moment and there were sincere Catholics living up to the light of truth that they have that have that relationship with God and have accepted Jesus as their Savior that they would be saved as they were living up to the truth they had been given...

We are all on different levels in our walk with God some have more light or truth than others do and Jesus did say He had others that were not of this fold....I'll get the verse......


John 10:16King James Version (KJV)[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,887
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I do believe that if they study the Bible and compare it to their beliefs that God will lead them out....however, I also believe that if Jesus were to come right this moment and there were sincere Catholics living up to the light of truth that they have that have that relationship with God and have accepted Jesus as their Savior that they would be saved as they were living up to the truth they had been given...

We are all on different levels in our walk with God some have more light or truth than others do and Jesus did say He had others that were not of this fold....I'll get the verse......

John 10:16King James Version (KJV)[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I see people using that verse a lot recently... my understanding is that He was talking about all of us, before the formation of Christianity which took place after His resurrection. Gentiles, which of course there is neither gentile nor Jew after coming to God under the newest covenant, which He instituted... but I digress. I have no problem accepting that there are, and I have, many brothers and sisters in sects and denominations that hold beliefs at variance with what I believe Scripture postulates. I do object when I am told that I am attacking the person to question their beliefs, or point out where I think their beliefs are wrong/against what Scripture explicitly teaches. Please note that I am not in any way suggesting that that is what you have done. It just seems so hypocritical on the part of the other person. It is like they are saying, wow, how unloving and arrogant of you to say what you think, while they hypocritically express what they think, with arrogance and lack of love. Nobody gets out unscathed. Look how Paul suffered to bring the gospel to those who had not heard. We have it so easy compared to him, but it is still not easy. Even so, God works all things to the good for those who love him :)
 
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Hey Lynn,

Thank you for your defense. There is just one point I'd like to clarify.

I am born again. I do know I'm a Christian. I have no doubts that I have the Holy Spirit within me.

Here's where the confusion may be. In my "testimony" I have no pointed experience where I go from "I am a terrible sinner" to "I want to know God." Because I lack a drama-filled conversion incident, some people presume that I am not a Christian. So, here's how my story goes: I've always believed. I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. When I say "believe," I don't just mean "intellectual assent." I mean I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. I agree that I have need of Jesus as my Savior. I accept the work of Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit within me. I maintain a relationship with God and seek to do his will. I also make every effort to live the sort of life a Christian is meant to live. I understand that my ability to live this life is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit within me.

Also, I *am* a person who believes that baptism is a sacrament (which several denominations believe...not just Roman Catholics). So, when I look at the trajectory of my life, I trace the beginning of the work of the Holy Spirit within me to THAT moment. A non-Catholic might look at my life and say, "Well, she never had a conversion moment...she is not saved." Other protestants I've met would say something like this, "I don't believe your baptism meant anything, but based on what I know about you and your life, it seems like your conversion was a gradual process instead of a dramatic moment."

(As an aside, I've met cradle-Protestants of various denominations who have a similar story of being raised in the faith and always loving Jesus. They might ask their parents to be baptized at say...age 5....not because they had an a dramatic experience at age 5, but because they realize what they believe and want to be baptized to express this belief. They have told me that they, too, have the same struggle with people disregarding their testimonies because they lack that climactic drama-filled moment. Eventually, to spare themselves the constant heartache--and headache--of having their testimony vivisected, they'll just slightly change how they tell the story so that it pleases the hearers).

What's interesting to me is that when I hear those dramatic testimonies from people, more often than not I notice that God was at work in them for a long, long time before they ever said, "Yes" to God. If you dig deeper, they'll gladly tell you that people were praying for them and their conversion. The bible says, "It's your [God's] kindness that leads us to repentance". While on the surface it may seem that a person is just going along doing their thing and then BAM God go after them in a single moment, I think that's just surface perception. That's because God is subtle.

Additionally, when I was much younger I went through phases of questioning whether or not I was saved because my story didn't match what people expected. People (who didn't really know me or my walk) told me I wasn't saved because I didn't have some memorable, drama-filled, conversion experience. When I would point out that I was living my life for God, they would then claim that I was trying to earn my salvation." (See the Catch-22 here? People will talk about believers bearing "fruit" but if you point to the fact that you've produced fruit, they'll tell you you're relying on your own works). The answer (for these people) was for me to have a (fake) conversion experience--and by "fake" I mean that these people wanted me to walk through some kind of process that I wasn't actually spiritually experiencing. I was already at the END of that process with the Holy Spirit within me. Anyway, this created a lot of anxiety for me because the desire of my heart was to love and serve God. The idea that I might not be doing so pained me. After a lot of anxiety and prayer regarding what these people said, here's what God said to me, "You are mine." He also let me know that I needed to not worry about the perceptions of others...it was His that mattered.

So this is my conundrum. I know I'm a Christian, but when certain people ask "when did you become a Christian," and I say, "I've always believed," they get really mad. They presume I'm playing fast-and-loose with scripture, or that I'm somehow denying their own experience, or that I'm trying to earn my way to God. I have evidence of my faith within my life (both internal and external). I could LIE and invent some kind of story to tell people so they would believe I was a Christian, but that would be (in my mind) a significant ethical compromise. Not only would I be lying about myself, but I'd be falsely reporting about the work of God within me.

Of course, there are plenty of other Christians who take me for my word and simply observe my life. After some observation, they will conclude that I'm accurately self-reporting because my actions and words are consistent.




PoetMary,

Thank you so much for your testimony,
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
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Hey Lynn,

Thank you for your defense. There is just one point I'd like to clarify.

I am born again. I do know I'm a Christian. I have no doubts that I have the Holy Spirit within me.

Here's where the confusion may be. In my "testimony" I have no pointed experience where I go from "I am a terrible sinner" to "I want to know God." Because I lack a drama-filled conversion incident, some people presume that I am not a Christian. So, here's how my story goes: I've always believed. I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. When I say "believe," I don't just mean "intellectual assent." I mean I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. I agree that I have need of Jesus as my Savior. I accept the work of Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit within me. I maintain a relationship with God and seek to do his will. I also make every effort to live the sort of life a Christian is meant to live. I understand that my ability to live this life is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit within me.

Also, I *am* a person who believes that baptism is a sacrament (which several denominations believe...not just Roman Catholics). So, when I look at the trajectory of my life, I trace the beginning of the work of the Holy Spirit within me to THAT moment. A non-Catholic might look at my life and say, "Well, she never had a conversion moment...she is not saved." Other protestants I've met would say something like this, "I don't believe your baptism meant anything, but based on what I know about you and your life, it seems like your conversion was a gradual process instead of a dramatic moment."

(As an aside, I've met cradle-Protestants of various denominations who have a similar story of being raised in the faith and always loving Jesus. They might ask their parents to be baptized at say...age 5....not because they had an a dramatic experience at age 5, but because they realize what they believe and want to be baptized to express this belief. They have told me that they, too, have the same struggle with people disregarding their testimonies because they lack that climactic drama-filled moment. Eventually, to spare themselves the constant heartache--and headache--of having their testimony vivisected, they'll just slightly change how they tell the story so that it pleases the hearers).

What's interesting to me is that when I hear those dramatic testimonies from people, more often than not I notice that God was at work in them for a long, long time before they ever said, "Yes" to God. If you dig deeper, they'll gladly tell you that people were praying for them and their conversion. The bible says, "It's your [God's] kindness that leads us to repentance". While on the surface it may seem that a person is just going along doing their thing and then BAM God go after them in a single moment, I think that's just surface perception. That's because God is subtle.

Additionally, when I was much younger I went through phases of questioning whether or not I was saved because my story didn't match what people expected. People (who didn't really know me or my walk) told me I wasn't saved because I didn't have some memorable, drama-filled, conversion experience. When I would point out that I was living my life for God, they would then claim that I was trying to earn my salvation." (See the Catch-22 here? People will talk about believers bearing "fruit" but if you point to the fact that you've produced fruit, they'll tell you you're relying on your own works). The answer (for these people) was for me to have a (fake) conversion experience--and by "fake" I mean that these people wanted me to walk through some kind of process that I wasn't actually spiritually experiencing. I was already at the END of that process with the Holy Spirit within me. Anyway, this created a lot of anxiety for me because the desire of my heart was to love and serve God. The idea that I might not be doing so pained me. After a lot of anxiety and prayer regarding what these people said, here's what God said to me, "You are mine." He also let me know that I needed to not worry about the perceptions of others...it was His that mattered.

So this is my conundrum. I know I'm a Christian, but when certain people ask "when did you become a Christian," and I say, "I've always believed," they get really mad. They presume I'm playing fast-and-loose with scripture, or that I'm somehow denying their own experience, or that I'm trying to earn my way to God. I have evidence of my faith within my life (both internal and external). I could LIE and invent some kind of story to tell people so they would believe I was a Christian, but that would be (in my mind) a significant ethical compromise. Not only would I be lying about myself, but I'd be falsely reporting about the work of God within me.

Of course, there are plenty of other Christians who take me for my word and simply observe my life. After some observation, they will conclude that I'm accurately self-reporting because my actions and words are consistent.

Hey Mary. Awesome testimony! I believe (not that it matters what I think) you are a child of the one true King. From what I've read in this thread it seems pretty clear to me. I don't know if you missed my question a couple of pages back, but coming from a catholic background myself, and understanding the MANY heretical doctrines that specifically contradict Scripture, Purgatory, praying to the dead, and the rosary, just to name a few, I truly don't understand why someone who has put their total faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ, AND NOTHING ELSE, would remain in the catholic church? Respectfully, can you please explain why? Thanks and God Bless you.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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While I probably could not stomach, for many reasons, to attend Catholic services/mass on a regular basis, I think that those who are Roman Catholic, and saved, are standing as witnesses to the Truth to those who are not saved within their ranks.
 
Nov 25, 2014
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Was there a dink? (Dink. The sound a light makes when it turns on.)

You don't need some dramatic story to be a believer, but you need a dink. A moment in time when "I want to know God" (off position of the light) turns into "God is here." (Dink.)

As mentioned I was raised Catholic too, constantly trying to connect to that guy in the book or the guy on that cross. Thought I was, as best as humanly possible. And then the not-humanly-possible dink hit. Watched Jesus Christ Superstar, asked God to make himself as real to me as the guy on the stage, got caught up in family drama too much after the show to ever get back to that thought, went to sleep, woke up and the dink was there. He wasn't someone I wanted to know. He became someone I did know! Not just a character in the book. Not that guy on a cross next to our front door. THE God. The one and only! Something changed. He changed me. Not some humongous back story. HIM. Dink!

If you don't have that, you're still wanting.

Men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the light and doesn't come to the light least his work should be exposed. But God wroughts! God does the wroughting, not us. (Personalized version of John 3:16-21. Yeah, I know. I misused the word wrought twice, but it's a much more powerful word than any other word I can think of and any other word used there. A blacksmith wroughts steel into a sword. That's what God does -- hammers us to reshape us into his will, and we want that.)

If there is no dink, I don't believe it. Mostly, because I remember the difference between want and have.
Haha! Lynn, I love the way you express this. And I think I understand what you mean by the "dink." It seems like you're talking about a time when you connect with God and say "yes" to him.

From that perspective, I've had a lot of "dinks." I think the distinction that you're making--that you know there was a way you were before you had your moment with God watching Jesus Christ Superstar, and then you were different afterward...that happens to me with God all the time.

For example, I mentioned a time of great anxiety regarding my salvation. And then God said to me, "You are mine." After that, my perspective and feelings changed.

I've never had a singular moment where it was like, "I'm a sinner and I need Jesus." I've always believed this. In fact, my understanding of it continues to be refined. The longer I've been a Christian, the more and more I realize how how much I need a Savior and how dependent upon Jesus I am.

As to your idea of want vs. know or want vs. have...the thing is, I know God. I recognize his voice when he speaks to me. I recognize him through the revelation of scripture. I recognize him in others. I see him at work within my life.
 
Nov 25, 2014
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Hey Mary. Awesome testimony! I believe (not that it matters what I think) you are a child of the one true King. From what I've read in this thread it seems pretty clear to me. I don't know if you missed my question a couple of pages back, but coming from a catholic background myself, and understanding the MANY heretical doctrines that specifically contradict Scripture, Purgatory, praying to the dead, and the rosary, just to name a few, I truly don't understand why someone who has put their total faith in the completed work of Jesus Christ, AND NOTHING ELSE, would remain in the catholic church? Respectfully, can you please explain why? Thanks and God Bless you.
Okay...I started a long post, then deleted it. But I'll say this: The fact that I'm a "cradle Catholic" doesn't mean I don't have lots of experience with other kinds of churches and biblical interpretations. The reason I'm still Catholic is

1. Most of the issues that people have with the Catholic church are non-essentials. Now, don't presume I'm saying that they are not important. Just that they are not issues of orthodoxy. We've seen on these boards that non-Catholics will even argue amongst themselves about various doctrinal issues that are not issues of orthodoxy.

2. Because I believe it is God's will for me. The RCC adheres to orthodoxy. I understand how someone who objects to the beliefs of the RCC could ever believe that God would have someone be involved with the RCC, but I understand the rationale behind (most) of these beliefs (it's a work in process. As many of you know, the RCC believes in using 20 words where four would suffice, so reading the background of these beliefs takes time).

3. I experience the presence of God in the liturgy. Just as charismatics might experience God's presence through speaking in tongues, or evangelicals through the parsing of scripture, or Quakers through sitting quietly, I get it through the celebration of the Eucharist.
 
Jan 17, 2013
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While I probably could not stomach, for many reasons, to attend Catholic services/mass on a regular basis, I think that those who are Roman Catholic, and saved, are standing as witnesses to the Truth to those who are not saved within their ranks.
What of those in your own ranks, Magenta? Are you standing as witness to the truth to those in your own church who are "not saved"?
Do you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, as our Lord commands? If not then by Christ's own testimony there is no life in you, and so then who are you to testify of "Truth" if you yourself do not follow Christ's commands?
What do you even know about the Mass that you testify that you "could not stomach" it?
You have no taste then for the bread from heaven which is the body and blood of our Lord and Savior and God Jesus Christ.

Ignatius, in the year A.D. 110:
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible"...
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Romans, and Letter to the Smyrnaeans [A.D. 110]).
- Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110

[video=youtube_share;vDwW61CWPtM]http://youtu.be/vDwW61CWPtM?t=53s[/video]

God bless you.
Praised be Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 25, 2014
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While I probably could not stomach, for many reasons, to attend Catholic services/mass on a regular basis, I think that those who are Roman Catholic, and saved, are standing as witnesses to the Truth to those who are not saved within their ranks.
I get it. A few months ago I attended a local church that was very "post-modern." The church has a beautiful building, with zero indications of Christianity--no crosses outside, none inside, no banners saying, "Jesus is Risen," etc. They have an in-house coffee bar where you can get a latte and take it into the "auditorium." (When I entered there, a person told me that they do NOT call it a "sanctuary"). They have a stage with video-friendly backdrop and no Christian symbols of any kind. Their worship team performs on this stage and it's broadcast over two big screens. The week I attended, they had a video-sermon (their pastor was gone that Sunday). The sermon was wrapping up a cycle of study and while it referenced a particular verse, the sermon seemed to focus on "living your best life." As the service closed, they reminded people that they could make their donations to the church via the card-taking machines at the exits, or through envelopes by the door.

Now, if my description sounds pretty "judgey" to you, that's because it is. My initial response to the church was, "You've got to be kidding me!" But God corrected me.

I love Christian symbolism, but having it doesn't make a person or group more holy. I find it odd to treat the place where worship occurs so casually, but maybe some people find this casual view more approachable and less fearful. The worship portion seemed like "entertainment" to me, but I attend a church where people notoriously don't sing. I could tell that I would probably have some theological differences with the approach to scripture, but I also apparently visited at an odd moment (the pastor was out, AND it was the wrap-up of a series). For all I know the previous six sermons were really bathed in scripture. And while the use of card-machines seems very consumeristic, I am the queen of never carrying cash, so it's probably rather convenient for much of the congregation.

So, I had to repent of my harsh judgement. It's not the kind of church where I would feel comfortable regularly worshipping, but it was uppity of me to presume that MY view of things was the only (and best) way. God can and does draw people in all kinds of ways.
 
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