I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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First of all, this was addressed towards Blain. Secondly, I would be more that happy to answer this as soon as I see your responce to my questions/challenge I resubmitted below.
In the Gospel of Matthew Christ promises to be with His Church all days even to the end of the world. If that is true then there must have existed since the time of Christ - true Christians who believed correctly and practiced their faith correctly, right? I doubt Christ would promise to be with apostates. Since the time of Christ Catholics can name many people who believe as we believe and practiced their faith as we practice it.
I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it. If you folks are correct then there must have been 'true Christians' in each century who believed and practiced as you do. This challenge leaves us with 3 possibilities: (1) There were Christians who believed and practiced as you do (Name 3 per century) (2) Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. (3) Or Christ lied. Which is it? None of us thinks Christ lied now right? We Catholics can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc. Now you and other folks on this forum that challengr the Catholic faith should be able to find 3 people who believed as they did, don't you think?
Once again I repeat, if you cannot identify these people then I submit they didn't exist. There is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. The only people for whom there is no historical record is this remnant of true Christians who believed and practiced like those of you doing the challenging. True Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. I have yet to hear anyone other than a Catholics fully address the questions above.
And lastly, I am not surprised anyone on the forum has agreed to take this challenge on. I think that in itself says a lot!!
Pax Christi
I have seen this myself as well, calling Mary sinless. If she were the sinless one, why wasnt she the one to shed her blood for the sins of the world? I dont understand this teaching at all.
And Blain, you say things about the Catholics being friendly and sharing a deep love for God. I can promise you this, if you went into a mosque and told them you were a follower of Christ, but wanted to see what their religion was about, they would accept you with open arms, and show you a strong love for god.
You cant look to the people to see if its the right path, every single one of them are gonna act that way. Look to the word of God, and judge them against His word. If it doesnt match Gods word, then it is not of God. We have been warned of false prophets, and men of satan who masquerade as ministers of righteousness. We need to rely on Gods word alone, and let it guide us.
K
[h=1]s the Sinner's Prayer Biblical or not?[/h] by Tony Miano and Matt Slick
Is the sinner's prayer Biblical? Yes and no. It is Biblical for a sinner to pray to Jesus to forgive him of his sins. It is not biblical to say someone is saved "because of reciting the Sinner's Prayer." It is Biblical to confess one's sins and ask for forgiveness and put trust, hope, and faith in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. But, again, it is not Biblical to give someone assurance of salvation based on reciting a prayer--on simply saying the words. Salvation is the work of God and the manifestation of that work is sometimes seen in people publicly confessing--even publicly praying to receive Christ as Savior.
So, we want to be clear that elements of the sinners prayer are Biblical. However, we also want to be very clear that a person is not saved "because he prayed a prayer." Faith, assurance, and hope should never be placed in the prayer.
Is the sinner's prayer Biblical? Yes and no. It is Biblical for a sinner to pray to Jesus to forgive him of his sins. It is not biblical to say someone is saved "because of reciting the Sinner's Prayer." It is Biblical to confess one's sins and ask for forgiveness and put trust, hope, and faith in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. But, again, it is not Biblical to give someone assurance of salvation based on reciting a prayer--on simply saying the words. Salvation is the work of God and the manifestation of that work is sometimes seen in people publicly confessing--even publicly praying to receive Christ as Savior.
So, we want to be clear that elements of the sinners prayer are Biblical. However, we also want to be very clear that a person is not saved "because he prayed a prayer." Faith, assurance, and hope should never be placed in the prayer.
Ha-Ha..... is this your way of admtting you cant name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it? {rolling eyes}
Here, I'll post it again for ya......
I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it. If you folks are correct then there must have been 'true Christians' in each century who believed and practiced as you do. This challenge leaves us with 3 possibilities: (1) There were Christians who believed and practiced as you do (Name 3 per century) (2) Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. (3) Or Christ lied. Which is it? None of us thinks Christ lied now right? We Catholics can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc. Now you and other folks on this forum that challengr the Catholic faith should be able to find 3 people who believed as they did, don't you think?
Once again I repeat, if you cannot identify these people then I submit they didn't exist. There is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. The only people for whom there is no historical record is this remnant of true Christians who believed and practiced like those of you doing the challenging. True Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. I have yet to hear anyone other than a Catholics fully address the questions above.
Take your time Bub
Pax Christi
Here, I'll post it again for ya......
I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it. If you folks are correct then there must have been 'true Christians' in each century who believed and practiced as you do. This challenge leaves us with 3 possibilities: (1) There were Christians who believed and practiced as you do (Name 3 per century) (2) Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. (3) Or Christ lied. Which is it? None of us thinks Christ lied now right? We Catholics can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc. Now you and other folks on this forum that challengr the Catholic faith should be able to find 3 people who believed as they did, don't you think?
Once again I repeat, if you cannot identify these people then I submit they didn't exist. There is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. The only people for whom there is no historical record is this remnant of true Christians who believed and practiced like those of you doing the challenging. True Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. I have yet to hear anyone other than a Catholics fully address the questions above.
Take your time Bub
Pax Christi
H
ya I tried to fix my post but the re edit feature is only 5 mins so I'll repost it all
Originally Posted by HappyGuy
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 10:9-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
now Jesus is our Lord and Savior and He is also our High Priest look at this scripture below
Hebrews 7:17-21
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
now Jesus a mediator
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jesus as our Avacate
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Have a great day all and Praise the Lord all Glory and Honor and Praise go to Him.
hese are the Scriptures that show Jesus as our Lord, Saviour, High Priest, Advocate, Mediator. If you want to recieve Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and make Him the Lord of your life say this prayer out loud.
Dear Lord Jesus, I realize that I am a sinner and have broken your laws. I understand that my sin has separated me from you. I am sorry and I ask you to forgive me. I accept the fact that your son Jesus Christ died for me, was resurrected, and is alive today and hears my prayers. I now open my heart’s door and invite Jesus in to become my Lord and my Saviour. I give Him control and ask that He would rule and reign in my heart so that His perfect will would be accomplished in my life. In Jesus name I pray. Amen. As accordinng to Romans 10:9-13 which I post on top.
and then the Lord God will send the Holy Spirit to you. And He will start helping U with your walk and relationship with Jesus our Lord and Savior.
As the Holy Spirit to a Born Again Believer is our Comforter, Helper, Teacher as He is the Spirit of the Lord. And as you walk with the Lord God (Relationship) your life starts to change.
And scripture says not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit says the Lord. Spirit means Holy Spirit.
God Bless and Love U all.
Happy
Originally Posted by HappyGuy
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 10:9-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
now Jesus is our Lord and Savior and He is also our High Priest look at this scripture below
Hebrews 7:17-21
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
now Jesus a mediator
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jesus as our Avacate
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Have a great day all and Praise the Lord all Glory and Honor and Praise go to Him.
hese are the Scriptures that show Jesus as our Lord, Saviour, High Priest, Advocate, Mediator. If you want to recieve Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and make Him the Lord of your life say this prayer out loud.
Dear Lord Jesus, I realize that I am a sinner and have broken your laws. I understand that my sin has separated me from you. I am sorry and I ask you to forgive me. I accept the fact that your son Jesus Christ died for me, was resurrected, and is alive today and hears my prayers. I now open my heart’s door and invite Jesus in to become my Lord and my Saviour. I give Him control and ask that He would rule and reign in my heart so that His perfect will would be accomplished in my life. In Jesus name I pray. Amen. As accordinng to Romans 10:9-13 which I post on top.
and then the Lord God will send the Holy Spirit to you. And He will start helping U with your walk and relationship with Jesus our Lord and Savior.
As the Holy Spirit to a Born Again Believer is our Comforter, Helper, Teacher as He is the Spirit of the Lord. And as you walk with the Lord God (Relationship) your life starts to change.
And scripture says not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit says the Lord. Spirit means Holy Spirit.
God Bless and Love U all.
Happy
It has been so interesting reading the responses from the RCC people. Not a single Scripture posted. Challenges to read the early church fathers as proof of the validity of the RCC.
Except those early church fathers wrote BEFORE there was such a thing as the ROMAN Catholic Church. Rome was just another center with a bishop, like Antioch, and Alexandria, and later Jerusalem and Constantinople. In fact, the word "pope" was first used for the bishop in Alexandria, NOT Rome.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Alexandria
My grandparents were Orthodox and there are some vast differences between the RCC and the Orthodox churches, besides the filoque clause.
Orthodox were always encouraged to read the Bible, esp. because it was available in Greek, and then later in other languages. The Patriarch in Constantinople was a bishop and leader, but he was not considered to be a "vicar of Christ." Because Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, the very sick, celibate church that evolved in the west did not occur in the east. The Orthodox church in each country had their own leader, who was not subject to the whims and crisis which were occurring constantly in Rome. I would suggest the Orthodox church never burnt people at the stake, nor had an Inquistion.
Doctrinally, the Orthodox did not add and add to scripture, but stayed much closer to a Biblical faith, until the false doctrines from the RCC started infiltrating in.
Anyway, I am still waiting to see some of the undefensible doctrines of the RCC defended with the Bible. Instead of constant appeals to the early church fathers, who were no part of the RCC, which didn't exist when they wrote. As for Origen, who was cited by someone in this thread, he was pretty far from Scripture on a lot of issues. Oh yes, and he lived in Alexandria, not Rome. (I can go through all the early church fathers, and show their errors and although they are to be respected, their writings are sometimes wrong, and do not agree with INSPIRED Scripture.)
Origen (/ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης, Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (Ὠριγένης Ἀδαμάντιος, Ōrigénēs Adamántios; 184/185 – 253/254),[SUP][1][/SUP] was a scholar and early Christian theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, philosophical theology, preaching, and spirituality written in Greek.
Unlike many church fathers, he was never canonized as a saint because some of his teachings directly contradicted the teachings attributed to the apostles, notably the Apostles Paul and John. His teachings on the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, including perhaps even the devil (the apokatastasis),[SUP][2][/SUP]and the subordination of the Son of God to God the Father, were extremely controversial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
Except those early church fathers wrote BEFORE there was such a thing as the ROMAN Catholic Church. Rome was just another center with a bishop, like Antioch, and Alexandria, and later Jerusalem and Constantinople. In fact, the word "pope" was first used for the bishop in Alexandria, NOT Rome.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Alexandria
My grandparents were Orthodox and there are some vast differences between the RCC and the Orthodox churches, besides the filoque clause.
Orthodox were always encouraged to read the Bible, esp. because it was available in Greek, and then later in other languages. The Patriarch in Constantinople was a bishop and leader, but he was not considered to be a "vicar of Christ." Because Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, the very sick, celibate church that evolved in the west did not occur in the east. The Orthodox church in each country had their own leader, who was not subject to the whims and crisis which were occurring constantly in Rome. I would suggest the Orthodox church never burnt people at the stake, nor had an Inquistion.
Doctrinally, the Orthodox did not add and add to scripture, but stayed much closer to a Biblical faith, until the false doctrines from the RCC started infiltrating in.
Anyway, I am still waiting to see some of the undefensible doctrines of the RCC defended with the Bible. Instead of constant appeals to the early church fathers, who were no part of the RCC, which didn't exist when they wrote. As for Origen, who was cited by someone in this thread, he was pretty far from Scripture on a lot of issues. Oh yes, and he lived in Alexandria, not Rome. (I can go through all the early church fathers, and show their errors and although they are to be respected, their writings are sometimes wrong, and do not agree with INSPIRED Scripture.)
Origen (/ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης, Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (Ὠριγένης Ἀδαμάντιος, Ōrigénēs Adamántios; 184/185 – 253/254),[SUP][1][/SUP] was a scholar and early Christian theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, philosophical theology, preaching, and spirituality written in Greek.
Unlike many church fathers, he was never canonized as a saint because some of his teachings directly contradicted the teachings attributed to the apostles, notably the Apostles Paul and John. His teachings on the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, including perhaps even the devil (the apokatastasis),[SUP][2][/SUP]and the subordination of the Son of God to God the Father, were extremely controversial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen
This kinda felt like we are looking to the "religion" itself to validate our faith.
Why not look to the one who has given us the word, so that we may not perish, but receive everlasting life?
Who cares about religion, I dont remember Christ putting huge emphasis on religion, but coming to Him, and receiving His word.
That's an honest reporting. I was baptized as an infant. I was raised in the church. I can never recall a time when I didn't love Jesus. I am also very clear about my inability to manage my own sin and my desperate need for a Savior, namely, Jesus. (This is evident through a variety of postings on the site).
I know that my self-reporting doesn't fit the expected storyline of your typical evangelical. I didn't follow the "Four spiritual laws." I don't have a "prodigal" story. There's no "conversion" where I leave the RCC and dutifully embrace the tenets of evangelicalism.
Had I arrived on this site and reported that I'd murdered 70 but repented, or that I was a drug-dealing prostitute terrorist who'd repented, everyone would gladly accept that report.
I do find it interesting that people think God is somehow incapable of saving children....that the work of Christ on the Cross hinges on our ability to comprehend it in a way that makes others feel comfortable.
I could easily have "fudged" the story of my spiritual journey and presented it in a way that made it seem more acceptable to you and others here. Of course, I'd have been compromising my ethics in the meantime. So, I opt to maintain my ethics, report my salvation story, be kind and transparent regarding theological matters, and take the flack that I know is inevitable.
And by "flack" I mean the whole, "We know you're not really a Christian," schtick. To my knowledge, the Holy Spirit is still the third member of the Godhead...there has been no vacancy left open for a person on this site to fill. As uncomfortable as it makes people, the ultimate truth is that no person gets to say whether another person is saved or not. It's above our pay grade. You can GUESS, you can SUPPOSE, you can line up a bunch of bible verses and attempt to force your particular view, but ultimately, salvation is in the hands of God. You and I don't get to say who is saved and who is not.
So, you can accept my self-reporting, the revelation of myself on the boards, my attempts to live like Jesus, or not. Your acceptance or rejection has no real bearing on my actual salvation. It simply places a roadblock between us and makes it difficult for us to be unified as fellow-believers.
I know that my self-reporting doesn't fit the expected storyline of your typical evangelical. I didn't follow the "Four spiritual laws." I don't have a "prodigal" story. There's no "conversion" where I leave the RCC and dutifully embrace the tenets of evangelicalism.
Had I arrived on this site and reported that I'd murdered 70 but repented, or that I was a drug-dealing prostitute terrorist who'd repented, everyone would gladly accept that report.
I do find it interesting that people think God is somehow incapable of saving children....that the work of Christ on the Cross hinges on our ability to comprehend it in a way that makes others feel comfortable.
I could easily have "fudged" the story of my spiritual journey and presented it in a way that made it seem more acceptable to you and others here. Of course, I'd have been compromising my ethics in the meantime. So, I opt to maintain my ethics, report my salvation story, be kind and transparent regarding theological matters, and take the flack that I know is inevitable.
And by "flack" I mean the whole, "We know you're not really a Christian," schtick. To my knowledge, the Holy Spirit is still the third member of the Godhead...there has been no vacancy left open for a person on this site to fill. As uncomfortable as it makes people, the ultimate truth is that no person gets to say whether another person is saved or not. It's above our pay grade. You can GUESS, you can SUPPOSE, you can line up a bunch of bible verses and attempt to force your particular view, but ultimately, salvation is in the hands of God. You and I don't get to say who is saved and who is not.
So, you can accept my self-reporting, the revelation of myself on the boards, my attempts to live like Jesus, or not. Your acceptance or rejection has no real bearing on my actual salvation. It simply places a roadblock between us and makes it difficult for us to be unified as fellow-believers.
I'm not quite sure why you would presume that I haven't read the bible. You claim that I NEVER quote the bible and that I don't hold it in high regard. Both of these ideas are based on presumption. Additionally, when you say these things as if they are fact, you are speaking falsehoods about me. I've quoted several scriptures on various boards. Since you don't know me, personally, and are not involved with my spiritual life it is pretty uppity of you to assume to know my feelings about the bible.
And it is this exact attitude that I'm addressing.
I self-report (that I've studied scripture) and you're not sure that my self-reporting is accurate. Instead of talking to me like I'm a human being and a possible sister in Christ, you level false accusations that you cannot substantiate.
You could have just asked me what I've studied, or how I've studied. Or "how do you reconcile this aspect of scripture with what the RCC says here." Or "When did you first begin to read the bible?" Or "What is your favorite passage of scripture?" Or "What do you think of gender-neutral renderings of scripture and the implications this has on a Christological view of various OT passages."
There were a wide variety of approaches available to you. You chose to claim that I never quote the bible (clearly false as evidenced by several boards as well as live chats) and that I don't hold it in high regard (a biased opinion that you cannot substantiate).
In other words, you didn't address a topic. You went after me personally.
And it is this exact attitude that I'm addressing.
I self-report (that I've studied scripture) and you're not sure that my self-reporting is accurate. Instead of talking to me like I'm a human being and a possible sister in Christ, you level false accusations that you cannot substantiate.
You could have just asked me what I've studied, or how I've studied. Or "how do you reconcile this aspect of scripture with what the RCC says here." Or "When did you first begin to read the bible?" Or "What is your favorite passage of scripture?" Or "What do you think of gender-neutral renderings of scripture and the implications this has on a Christological view of various OT passages."
There were a wide variety of approaches available to you. You chose to claim that I never quote the bible (clearly false as evidenced by several boards as well as live chats) and that I don't hold it in high regard (a biased opinion that you cannot substantiate).
In other words, you didn't address a topic. You went after me personally.
Z
Sister, this is my problem here. I thank you for the clear precise way you present your testimony! I too was raised in the church and have loved our Lord since I was a small child. I know the Lord and He knows me! He always has my entire life.(this post is for poetmary! The wolves are just itching because of this post)
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