If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

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Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Say, Jackson, did I read in a post above that you live in or sometimes visit Surabaya? Have you ever visited Gereja Mawar Sharon (Church of the Rose of Sharon)?
https://mawarsharon.com/

I used to like watching their services on YouTube. Someone used to record them and put them up but I think they were doing it without permission, because they got banned.

The church services are still on YouTube live, but because of the time difference here I usually forget to tune in!
The friend that I am talking about I sin online friend from Indonesian bible discussion online.



yes I visit Surabaya, but I am net visit that church
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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I do not say Jews do not believe abraham god, I say some Jews did not.

Muslim not believe Jesus as a god. So catholic is lie
Do you believe that the majority of Jews, those who attempt to follow the law, observant Jews, the majority of them, do they believe in Abraham God?
 

Dan_473

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Not sure what Martin Luther said ? He is no longer here.

The 66 books remain the one source of hearing God.. as it is written.(sola scriptura) The author of the Spirit of faith witnesses to our spirit.

I would not assume Revelation is one of the chapters. Assuming can only produce doubt not faith as a law needed to believe God. . its the last chapter... No private revelations (catholisicim and corrupted Judaism) to give the illusion God has violate his own word and is still bring new revelations. as a law .

Prophesying is the "gift of interpreting the word of God as a tradition of God. In that way no man can serve two masters. (1) The things of men(seen) and (2) those of God. (unseen)

We are lovingly commanded (2 Peter 2) not to seek the approval of men as we study .

Prophecy God's interpretation informs us there must be heresies as opinions of men also called private interpretations as personal commentaries . Like fingerprints every man has a opinion to offer to include Mr. Luther. .

The Catholic using their law book( CCC) " law of the fathers" or called "Apostolic succession" They make the divine word of God to no effect .

They make great claims of being divine (two masters) and with one stroke of the pen (highlighted in red) make the word of God (sola scriptura) without effect.



The fruit of lies. Did God really say?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.
here's a link to some Martin Luther quotes

http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

"In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works."

So then, for example, should we assume the Martin Luther was not listening to the spirit?
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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So yes, that certainly is a possible interpretation!

Another passage
Mark 2: 5. Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

This is very early in Jesus ministry, what is it that they are believing about Jesus, the faith that Jesus sees? They might be believing that he is God, sure, but I think it's more likely they were believing that he was a healer.

Whatever it was they were believing, it resulted in the forgiveness of sins for the man who was paralyzed!
Yep, more likely he believe Jesus as a healer, not a soul savior.

And I do not know if that man saved or not. But as far as I know, to be save, we need to believe Jesus as God.

I do not know if a person never hear about Jesus.

But most Islam in my country hear about Jesus. A lot of testimonies people rise from the death etc

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Do you believe that the majority of Jews, those who attempt to follow the law, observant Jews, the majority of them, do they believe in Abraham God?
They think they do believe abraham god, but they do not believe that Jesus is God.
But the text book they have is Old Testament, it is revelation from God.

Muslim text book is Quran, is not revelation from God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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But Muslim god tell mohammad that Jesus is son of Mary, and Mary is Moses sister.

Did Jews god tell Jews Jesus son of Mary, Moses sister?

Islam god told mohammad that sun set in the black mud every days

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.



Did abraham God tell Jews that sun set in the spring of black muddy?

With these 2 example I believe Islam god is not abraham God, or God is liar, tell A to Christian and B to muslim
Well, the Jews that I have talked to say things like based on the scriptures, Jesus of Nazareth could not be the Messiah, he isn't God, and God is not a trinity. That's what they say God tells them through the scriptures.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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here's a link to some Martin Luther quotes

http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

"In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works."

So then, for example, should we assume the Martin Luther was not listening to the spirit?
I read the link above and I quote part of it

Quote
In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

End quote
Luther think James not inline with Paul. I think it is just misunderstanding

Paul talk about salvation by faith

James talk about the fruit of salvation.

Luther say salvation by faith alone in reaction to the Catholic that sale forgiveness certificate.

It is the same context when Paul say salvation by faith against Jews tradition and some Old Testament that teach salvation by animal sacrifice

Yes I believe Luther wrong to say James not inline to Paul, but he is right on his attitude against catholic that is corrupt, sale forgiveness certificate
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Well, the Jews that I have talked to say things like based on the scriptures, Jesus of Nazareth could not be the Messiah, he isn't God, and God is not a trinity. That's what they say God tells them through the scriptures.
The text book is correct but the interpretation is wrong.

In contrary, Islam text book is not the revelation from abraham god
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yep, more likely he believe Jesus as a healer, not a soul savior.

And I do not know if that man saved or not. But as far as I know, to be save, we need to believe Jesus as God.

I do not know if a person never hear about Jesus.

But most Islam in my country hear about Jesus. A lot of testimonies people rise from the death etc

I'm glad to hear that a lot of Muslims in Indonesia have heard about Jesus!

You probably noticed that lumen gentium was written in 1964. So in 1964, what had most Muslims around the world heard about Jesus? My guess would be whatever it was that Muhammad said about Jesus, so they would have lots of misinformation.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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They think they do believe abraham god, but they do not believe that Jesus is God.
But the text book they have is Old Testament, it is revelation from God.

Muslim text book is Quran, is not revelation from God.
Right, the Jews have the truth in their hands, but they cannot see it

2 Corinthians 3: 15. But to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

Since they have the truth in their hands, but they cannot see it, they believe wrong things about God.
They do not believe God is a trinity.
They do not believe Jesus is God.
They don't even believe Jesus is the messiah.

So because of all that, shall we say that the Jews seek Abraham God? Or that they do not seek Abraham God?
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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I'm glad to hear that a lot of Muslims in Indonesia have heard about Jesus!

You probably noticed that lumen gentium was written in 1964. So in 1964, what had most Muslims around the world heard about Jesus? My guess would be whatever it was that Muhammad said about Jesus, so they would have lots of misinformation.
Than just say a people that never heard about Jesus it doesn't matter Muslim or hindo or atheist etc will be subject to different judgment and give biblical references

Lumen gentium state Muslim in the plan of salvation because adore abraham god. It is lie
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I read the link above and I quote part of it

Quote
In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

End quote
Luther think James not inline with Paul. I think it is just misunderstanding

Paul talk about salvation by faith

James talk about the fruit of salvation.

Luther say salvation by faith alone in reaction to the Catholic that sale forgiveness certificate.

It is the same context when Paul say salvation by faith against Jews tradition and some Old Testament that teach salvation by animal sacrifice

Yes I believe Luther wrong to say James not inline to Paul, but he is right on his attitude against catholic that is corrupt, sale forgiveness certificate
Yes, I hear what you're saying.

Another quote about the book of James from that same website
"He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture."

So the idea that I was talking about, was that if someone is in touch with the holy Spirit, the spirit will tell them which books are in the Bible.

So if Luther didn't think that James should be in the Bible, and another person did, then following the above idea, one of them would not be in touch with the spirit.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The text book is correct but the interpretation is wrong.

In contrary, Islam text book is not the revelation from abraham god
Right, I agree that the Quran is not from God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Right, the Jews have the truth in their hands, but they cannot see it

2 Corinthians 3: 15. But to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

Since they have the truth in their hands, but they cannot see it, they believe wrong things about God.
They do not believe God is a trinity.
They do not believe Jesus is God.
They don't even believe Jesus is the messiah.

So because of all that, shall we say that the Jews seek Abraham God? Or that they do not seek Abraham God?
I say they seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Why they do not accept Jesus, I believe they expect Jesus that free them from Rome. Like gedion lead an army to deliver them from the oppressions of the heathen nation, not Jesus that teach love your enemy
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Than just say a people that never heard about Jesus it doesn't matter Muslim or hindo or atheist etc will be subject to different judgment and give biblical references

Lumen gentium state Muslim in the plan of salvation because adore abraham god. It is lie
Well, there are different classes of people who have never heard of Jesus.

There are the Jews, maybe they have heard of Jesus, but a veil is over their heart.

And Muslims who have heard misinformation about Jesus, but do believe there is only one God, even if they lack knowledge about that one God.

And the people like those in Athens that Paul was talking to, who seek the unknown God, but also worship other gods at the same time.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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I say they seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Why they do not accept Jesus, I believe they expect Jesus that free them from Rome. Like gedion lead an army to deliver them from the oppressions of the heathen nation, not Jesus that teach love your enemy
Yes, they seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Then using that same line of reasoning, I would say that Muslims, at least some of them, seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Like I talked about above, the lumen gentium also says that Christ is necessary for salvation, and that there is no salvation apart from the body of Christ. Or words to that effect. So saying that Muslims are part of the plan of salvation, is not saying that Muslims are saved just by being Muslims. They too need to join the body of Christ.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, I hear what you're saying.

Another quote about the book of James from that same website
"He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture."

So the idea that I was talking about, was that if someone is in touch with the holy Spirit, the spirit will tell them which books are in the Bible.

So if Luther didn't think that James should be in the Bible, and another person did, then following the above idea, one of them would not be in touch with the spirit.
In my opinion we as Christian still make mistake and not perfect. Yes Holy Spirit dwell in Martin and every Christian, but we still have a free will and not a robot. Some time we fail to listen to the Holy spirit

But I believe Martin listen to the Holy Spirit on the fact that Martin against of saling forgiveness certificate and not afraid to die for good reason.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Well, there are different classes of people who have never heard of Jesus.

There are the Jews, maybe they have heard of Jesus, but a veil is over their heart.

And Muslims who have heard misinformation about Jesus, but do believe there is only one God, even if they lack knowledge about that one God.

And the people like those in Athens that Paul was talking to, who seek the unknown God, but also worship other gods at the same time.
Yep, in that case let God judge, but not say Islam adore abraham god.

To say Islam in the plan of salvation has huge implication.

It mean we do not need to witnessing to them, they do not need Jesus.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, they seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Then using that same line of reasoning, I would say that Muslims, at least some of them, seek abraham God, but they define abraham god as they like.

Like I talked about above, the lumen gentium also says that Christ is necessary for salvation, and that there is no salvation apart from the body of Christ. Or words to that effect. So saying that Muslims are part of the plan of salvation, is not saying that Muslims are saved just by being Muslims. They too need to join the body of Christ.
Muslim define who is god from wrong text book.

Jews have the eright text book but degine God as they like
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Yep, in that case let God judge, but not say Islam adore abraham god.

To say Islam in the plan of salvation has huge implication.

It mean we do not need to witnessing to them, they do not need Jesus.
I don't think the lumen gentium is saying don't witness to Muslims.

Another quote from it
"Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation."

In my opinion, saying Muslims adore God is not different from saying that Jews seek Abraham God.

And again in my opinion, saying that Muslims are part of the plan of salvation it's not the same as saying that they do not need Christ, or that they are saved by being Muslims.

It all relates to the question we talked about earlier, what happens to the person who had never heard of Jesus? I think it relates.