If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

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Hazelelponi

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Jul 8, 2019
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LOL, a Jew quest?

I believe I had asked you whether the Jews worshipping a God who is not a trinity is enough do you mean that they are not worshiping the same God. I don't remember seeing your answer.

Here's how I see it.
God is a trinity, and that is part of his nature.
The Jews worship a God that is a trinity, they just deny that God is a trinity. But their denial of part of God's nature doesn't mean that they are not worshiping the same God that Christians are.

So following that same line of thinking, I agree that Muslims deny parts of God's nature. They do affirm that there is only one God, and that is true. But, just as the Jews denying part of God's nature is not enough to mean but they are worshipping a different God, so also with Muslims... Their denial of part of God's nature is not enough to mean that they are worshipping a different God than Christians.

I do agree that Muslims are wrong about many things concerning God.

Similar situation with those who throughout history have worshipped the unknown God

Acts 17: 23. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you. 24. The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands,

Paul says that what those Athenians were worshipping in ignorance, he would tell them about. He proceeds to tell them about the true God, so the implication that I see is that the Athenians, at least some of them, were worshipping or at least searching for the true God, but they were doing it in ignorance.
I answered your question, or answers to the question in this thread already.

The God of the Old Testament - described in the Books of the Law and the Prophets - The God worshipped by Israel thousands of years before we were born, is the same God we worship today.

We have a fuller understanding of this God than did our religious predecessors, but Hes NOT a different God.

He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If Your not worshipping THIS God your not in the faith taught us by Christ and the Apostles.

Jews today stand outside the covenant promises, and as such are unsaved and are in need of the Messiah the same as we were prior to our accepting the Lordship of Christ and being covered in His blood and thus, obtaining our salvation through Grace, by Faith.

God's offer of salvation is to all, but whether Jews accept that salvation or not, they still worship the EXACT same God we do. Albeit with less knowledge than we do.

In Athens Paul was taken before the Areopagus, a group of people established centuries earlier who were the judicial authority over the question of new god's being introduced, and who had the power of exile and capital punishment.

Paul's argument was that he wasn't introducing a new God, rather, he was revealing the nature to them of a God they already knew.

The unknown God is most likely the God of Israel. As there were prohibitions against speaking Gods name aloud in Jewish culture, this likely translated into an "unknown" God to the Athenians since names are essential to knowing - and with no name what would they write?

So what Paul did was to make an argument concerning this God, telling them they can now know Him through Paul's teaching.

On this path, He also used something that was written about this God, that we are God's "children" most likely something heard originally from Jews, but through some measure of contact with the Jewish people it's a known concept by these pagans in reference to this God..

We aren't making God's that aren't ours into something we can worship. We worship in Truth, we teach in Truth. And the God of Israel is our God, regardless of whether He is known as the Triune God, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or whether it's the God whose name cannot be uttered.

We don't worship a different God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yep, in that case let God judge, but not say Islam adore abraham god.

To say Islam in the plan of salvation has huge implication.

It mean we do not need to witnessing to them, they do not need Jesus.
Another quote from the lumen gentium, talking about the three groups of people, Jews, Muslims, people who seek the unknown God

"Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life."
 

Hazelelponi

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I don't think the lumen gentium is saying don't witness to Muslims.

Another quote from it
"Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation."

In my opinion, saying Muslims adore God is not different from saying that Jews seek Abraham God.

And again in my opinion, saying that Muslims are part of the plan of salvation it's not the same as saying that they do not need Christ, or that they are saved by being Muslims.

It all relates to the question we talked about earlier, what happens to the person who had never heard of Jesus? I think it relates.
No, it's the pope and those in the orthodox faith who say this.

I have just about all those who practice in the orthodox faith and pretty much every Catholic on ignore elsewhere after arguing this out with them.

I walked away utterly disgusted..
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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Well, the Jews that I have talked to say things like based on the scriptures, Jesus of Nazareth could not be the Messiah, he isn't God, and God is not a trinity. That's what they say God tells them through the scriptures.
I find it interesting that God was very active among the Jewish people. He provided signs and miracles, brought forth Commandments and corresponded with Moses and prophets who all spoke of the coming of the Messiah.

Jesus enters the world, brings teachings who’s enlightenment surpasses anything before or since, performs miracles, dies and is Resurrected, and after which God is silent with regards to the Jewish people.

It stands to reason that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. And no, the destruction of the temple has nothing to do with God’s silence with the Jewish people. God is not contained in a building. If Jesus was not the messiah, God would still be interacting with the Jewish people on a “biblical” level. My two cents.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I answered your question, or answers to the question in this thread already.

The God of the Old Testament - described in the Books of the Law and the Prophets - The God worshipped by Israel thousands of years before we were born, is the same God we worship today.

We have a fuller understanding of this God than did our religious predecessors, but Hes NOT a different God.

He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If Your not worshipping THIS God your not in the faith taught us by Christ and the Apostles.

Jews today stand outside the covenant promises, and as such are unsaved and are in need of the Messiah the same as we were prior to our accepting the Lordship of Christ and being covered in His blood and thus, obtaining our salvation through Grace, by Faith.

God's offer of salvation is to all, but whether Jews accept that salvation or not, they still worship the EXACT same God we do. Albeit with less knowledge than we do.

In Athens Paul was taken before the Areopagus, a group of people established centuries earlier who were the judicial authority over the question of new god's being introduced, and who had the power of exile and capital punishment.

Paul's argument was that he wasn't introducing a new God, rather, he was revealing the nature to them of a God they already knew.

The unknown God is most likely the God of Israel. As there were prohibitions against speaking Gods name aloud in Jewish culture, this likely translated into an "unknown" God to the Athenians since names are essential to knowing - and with no name what would they write?

So what Paul did was to make an argument concerning this God, telling them they can now know Him through Paul's teaching.

On this path, He also used something that was written about this God, that we are God's "children" most likely something heard originally from Jews, but through some measure of contact with the Jewish people it's a known concept by these pagans in reference to this God..

We aren't making God's that aren't ours into something we can worship. We worship in Truth, we teach in Truth. And the God of Israel is our God, regardless of whether He is known as the Triune God, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or whether it's the God whose name cannot be uttered.

We don't worship a different God.
Paul quotes from one of the Greek poets on Mars Hill.

Acts 17: 28. 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'

So if I understand what you're saying right, it's that Jews worship the same God as Christians, Jews are just misinformed about God, and deny certain things regarding God's nature that Christians affirm. Is that what you're saying?

If so I would say the same line of reasoning applies to Muslims as well. They just deny even more things then the Jews to do.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I find it interesting that God was very active among the Jewish people. He provided signs and miracles, brought forth Commandments and corresponded with Moses and prophets who all spoke of the coming of the Messiah.

Jesus enters the world, brings teachings who’s enlightenment surpasses anything before or since, performs miracles, dies and is Resurrected, and after which God is silent with regards to the Jewish people.

It stands to reason that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. And no, the destruction of the temple has nothing to do with God’s silence with the Jewish people. God is not contained in a building. If Jesus was not the messiah, God would still be interacting with the Jewish people on a “biblical” level. My two cents.
Yes, it's obvious to me that Jesus is the messiah. But for the Jews, a veil remains over their heart.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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here's a link to some Martin Luther quotes

http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

"In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works."

So then, for example, should we assume the Martin Luther was not listening to the spirit?
It is not my intention to justify the work s other than that of Christ that works in us .

We were discussing cannon and whose witness it represents . Do we need man to reach us or not.?
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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Paul quotes from one of the Greek poets on Mars Hill.

Acts 17: 28. 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.'



So if I understand what you're saying right, it's that Jews worship the same God as Christians, Jews are just misinformed about God, and deny certain things regarding God's nature that Christians affirm. Is that what you're saying?

If so I would say the same line of reasoning applies to Muslims as well. They just deny even more things then the Jews to do.
Yes we worship the same God as the Jews. I disagree with which poet Paul quoted from, but there's no point arguing for no purpose. Jews worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just like we do. Same God.

Muslims do not worship the same God. Please note once more, as I've already stated and thoroughly explained in this thread (I'm really beginning to feel like a broken record here) that I'm a former Muslim first off, so I actually know what I'm talking about.

Muslims deny the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not one mention in any writing affirms this God. They deny HIM. They claim the God of Abraham, and deny the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

This makes a very real difference, because it's a completely different God.

This is why they end up with a nonsensical messiah, because in their denial of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they no longer have need of a Messiah and their version becomes nonsensical outside the covenant relationship.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Torah). Yet Muslims deny the God of the covenant - and the covenant itself.

They worship a different God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Another quote from the lumen gentium, talking about the three groups of people, Jews, Muslims, people who seek the unknown God

"Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life."
I do not agree with this lumen gentium.

Qoute

Whatever good or truth is found amongs them is looked upon by church as preparation for the gospel....end qoute

Let say Muslim teach do not steal. It is good, but not to prepare them to accept gospel.

The devil pretend to be god, so they teach some good, to make them believe that their religion is from God. Not to prepare them to accept gospel. This is another lie.

quote
She knows that it is given by him who enlighten all man so they finally have life

end quote


Who is she in this sentence?

So finally have a life

Did all man finally go to heaven?

Bile say only few go to heaven. Another lie
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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@Dan_473 - I am sorry if I'm a bit short in that last post. It's just beginning to feel quite repetitive and I'm tired.

In a perfect world people would read the responses, but it's not a perfect world.

So, I'm sorry for being a bit short in my last post.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yep, more likely he believe Jesus as a healer, not a soul savior.

And I do not know if that man saved or not. But as far as I know, to be save, we need to believe Jesus as God.

I do not know if a person never hear about Jesus.

But most Islam in my country hear about Jesus. A lot of testimonies people rise from the death etc

Also, the lady in the video said that Indonesia is now 30% Christian. That is a huge thing to praise God for!

That's tens of millions of people saying yes to Jesus!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Also, the lady in the video said that Indonesia is now 30% Christian. That is a huge thing to praise God for!

That's tens of millions of people saying yes to Jesus!
Yep, but officially less than 30%, I do not know if government honest with the data, but yes a lot of mega church in Indonesia, as far as I know, more people go to church on Sunday compare to Muslim go to mosque on Friday.

This is the biggest church in Indonesia some people say it have more than 250000 member

The preacher is ex Muslim that heal from paralysis, by Jesus

 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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It is not my intention to justify the work s other than that of Christ that works in us .

We were discussing cannon and whose witness it represents . Do we need man to reach us or not.?
Well, I thought we were talking about whether or not the spirit guides everyone to understand that the same 66 books should be in the Bible.

Here's a web page you might find interesting
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon3.html

And another page from that same website
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yes we worship the same God as the Jews. I disagree with which poet Paul quoted from, but there's no point arguing for no purpose. Jews worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just like we do. Same God.

Muslims do not worship the same God. Please note once more, as I've already stated and thoroughly explained in this thread (I'm really beginning to feel like a broken record here) that I'm a former Muslim first off, so I actually know what I'm talking about.

Muslims deny the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not one mention in any writing affirms this God. They deny HIM. They claim the God of Abraham, and deny the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

This makes a very real difference, because it's a completely different God.

This is why they end up with a nonsensical messiah, because in their denial of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they no longer have need of a Messiah and their version becomes nonsensical outside the covenant relationship.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Torah). Yet Muslims deny the God of the covenant - and the covenant itself.

They worship a different God.
I understand that you feel like a broken record. Maybe if I can express the issue this way. I understand that the Jews say that they worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a trinity. Would you agree with that?

If Jews say that the god they worship is not a trinity, are they still worshiping the same God as Christians?

I would say yes, they are just misinformed about God and denying part of his nature.

Would you agree with that?

So, assuming that we've been agreeing so far,
Muslims say that they worship The God who created everything, at least I think they do. Am I correct about that? And they further say that this is the only God that exists. Again am I correct? And would you agree with me so far?

And up to this point, what Muslims are saying about God would agree with what Christians say about God.

Now, I'm pretty sure that Muslims say that God is not a trinity. Does their denial of the trinity mean that they are worshipping a different God than Christians do?

If so, then it appears to me that there is a double standard. Jews can deny the nature of God, and still be said to be worshiping the same God as Christians. But if Muslims deny the nature of God, then it is a different God.

Now, does the above make sense to you?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I do not agree with this lumen gentium.

Qoute

Whatever good or truth is found amongs them is looked upon by church as preparation for the gospel....end qoute

Let say Muslim teach do not steal. It is good, but not to prepare them to accept gospel.

The devil pretend to be god, so they teach some good, to make them believe that their religion is from God. Not to prepare them to accept gospel. This is another lie.

quote
She knows that it is given by him who enlighten all man so they finally have life

end quote


Who is she in this sentence?

So finally have a life

Did all man finally go to heaven?

Bile say only few go to heaven. Another lie
The she that the quote is referring to is the body of Christ, the church.

It sounds like you disagree with some of the interpretations that the Catholic church has of the scriptures. At this point, I'm not sure if there is benefit for us in going through the lumen gentium line by line.

Of course you are welcome to disagree with any document produced by an ecumenical Church council.

The Catholic position, I think, is that the scriptures are only properly interpreted by the church operating as a whole.

The Protestant position, I would say, is that each individual is to read the Bible by themselves, for themselves, and ask the holy Spirit to give them the proper interpretation. So if that approach sounds right to you, you will be much happier as a Protestant!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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@Dan_473 - I am sorry if I'm a bit short in that last post. It's just beginning to feel quite repetitive and I'm tired.

In a perfect world people would read the responses, but it's not a perfect world.

So, I'm sorry for being a bit short in my last post.
No problem at all, it's not that I don't read your posts, I'm just not sure if we're talking about the same issue the same way! :)
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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No problem at all, it's not that I don't read your posts, I'm just not sure if we're talking about the same issue the same way! :)
It's possible, I only truly understand what is straight forward, I don't do subtleties.. lol.

But I was being serious. Muslim faith is different than a simple not understanding of God.. it's a completely different god altogether.

It is perhaps I am unable to adequately explain why to others.. but it's no misunderstanding, it's intentional trying to make you believe an untruth (i.e. that we have the same god, when we do not)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The she that the quote is referring to is the body of Christ, the church.

It sounds like you disagree with some of the interpretations that the Catholic church has of the scriptures. At this point, I'm not sure if there is benefit for us in going through the lumen gentium line by line.

Of course you are welcome to disagree with any document produced by an ecumenical Church council.

The Catholic position, I think, is that the scriptures are only properly interpreted by the church operating as a whole.

The Protestant position, I would say, is that each individual is to read the Bible by themselves, for themselves, and ask the holy Spirit to give them the proper interpretation. So if that approach sounds right to you, you will be much happier as a Protestant!
Yep, I am not agree with catholic doctrine, to me catholic doctrine not inline with the Bible teaching
 
Jun 10, 2019
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Yes we worship the same God as the Jews. I disagree with which poet Paul quoted from, but there's no point arguing for no purpose. Jews worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just like we do. Same God.

Muslims do not worship the same God. Please note once more, as I've already stated and thoroughly explained in this thread (I'm really beginning to feel like a broken record here) that I'm a former Muslim first off, so I actually know what I'm talking about.

Muslims deny the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not one mention in any writing affirms this God. They deny HIM. They claim the God of Abraham, and deny the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

This makes a very real difference, because it's a completely different God.

This is why they end up with a nonsensical messiah, because in their denial of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they no longer have need of a Messiah and their version becomes nonsensical outside the covenant relationship.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Torah). Yet Muslims deny the God of the covenant - and the covenant itself.

They worship a different God.
interesting how False religions will be used of God to test the faith and fidelity of His own people, the pharaoh in Moses time was an example of such.