If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#41
I think it"s like I said about the farm set,,,,If he is an abusive husband then he's not in love and so he's not worried about or considering the farm set. As an example if he cheats on his wife(as people word this) he in truth cheated on God, his wife and his children(but the other two are usually not mentioned)...
While I don't disagree with you, I wonder whether you understood my point. People generally view abusive husbands in a very dim light but they wink at nagging wives as though it's not equally sinful. Wrong is wrong.

We're getting off topic though.
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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#42
And if a wife is the helper to the husband, I guess that means he doesn't have to help with choirs. No wonder the wife is loud and nagging.

They should both help each other, then no one will need to get loud!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
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#43
And if a wife is the helper to the husband, I guess that means he doesn't have to help with choirs. No wonder the wife is loud and nagging.

They should both help each other, then no one will need to get loud!
I'm chuckling at a funny mis-spelling. I think you mean "chores", but "choirs" can get pretty loud too. You know, the singing ones. ;)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
2,230
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#44
And to the OP,,,,

See 1 Timothy 5:2,,,that is even Timothy who was being given advice by the apostle Paul remembered that honor your mother and father is important and instructed Timothy to see the older women as "mothers" and so irregardless of the age(twice their age as in your OP) even an Bishop appointed by Paul is reminded of her role in Gods view,. So don't feel small or unqualified our house needs you .
Amen ! We so much need each other. We are all different parts, but the Body needs all of them. Let's keep building one another up. He is coming soon. I pray he will not find one of us tearing another down.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
3,882
894
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Philippines Age 40
#45
So in order for a man to succeed, he needs a wife?

That was in reference to adam. Do you think he can go and multiply alone?

Supporter? You mean like a cheerleader? So if a woman's purpose is to be her husband's cheerleader, does that mean a single woman has no purpose?

The purpose of the single woman is to serve Jesus and the church.

A helper is a paid person in the home that does domestic choirs.
So when a woman is loud it is the fault of the man? If the man is loud, is it the fault of the wife?

Is that the only way you think a wife can help?

Really? Maybe that's just her way of being a nuisance.

You mean she's in prison and she has to have his permission for everything?

Asking permission is a sign of respect to authority.

Do you also find single men leading the church questionable?

Did I say single men?

If the wife gives her opinion the marriage is doomed? Really?

Is giving opinion same as leading?
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
665
573
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#46
This thread has gotten some very emotional responses. Not sure why.
As long as everyone agrees that a wife should do and say as her husband directs her, then all is well, we can get off topic? But if someone says differently, then it's a problem.

I see. Anyway, I've made my point so I'll leave it at that.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
4,643
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#47
I'm chuckling at a funny mis-spelling. I think you mean "chores", but "choirs" can get pretty loud too. You know, the singing ones. ;)

Aren't we a mess with the farm set all out in the living-room floor
While I don't disagree with you, I wonder whether you understood my point. People generally view abusive husbands in a very dim light but they wink at nagging wives as though it's not equally sinful. Wrong is wrong.

We're getting off topic though.

I agree Dino were all involved in the same farm set,,,all of us are important in our roles and any breakdown of it is incorrect,,men or women.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
2,230
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#48
As long as everyone agrees that a wife should do and say as her husband directs her, then all is well, we can get off topic? But if someone says differently, then it's a problem.

I see. Anyway, I've made my point so I'll leave it at that.
I did not mean to hurt you in any way, shape, or form. If you are going through troubled waters at this time, then I want to stand with you and beside you. I think I know why now. It is pain speaking. We must pray one for another.
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
4,417
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#49
It is interesting to note that it was Paul who said that he does not permit women to speak in church but nowhere does it say that God does not permit it. I believe that Paul was merely stating his personal preference based on the culture and traditions of that era. What is it scripturally, that makes a man eminently more qualified to hold positions of leadership in a church setting than a woman? A lot of Paul's writing is obviously his own personal opinion but perhaps not binding in a spiritual sense in all instances and situations.
Why would God allow Paul's opinion into his Word?
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
665
573
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#50
I'm chuckling at a funny mis-spelling. I think you mean "chores", but "choirs" can get pretty loud too. You know, the singing ones. ;)
:D Lately I've been listening to songs from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I don't agree with their teachings, but the music from the choir is beautiful, just beautiful. I really think that is how that word got in there. I've typed that word so often in the past days, it must have been on the back of my mind there somewhere.
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
665
573
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#51
I did not mean to hurt you in any way, shape, or form. If you are going through troubled waters at this time, then I want to stand with you and beside you. I think I know why now. It is pain speaking. We must pray one for another.
I am free and single. As soon as someone talks about not agreeing to your idea of marriage, the person is emotional and going through "troubled waters" What-you-talkin-bout-willis-quote-1.jpg
 
M

Miri

Guest
#52
In our church we have both male and female children’s workers.
That’s exactly how it should be, children need both male and female
role models in their lives.

I often think that the reason there are less male teens in churches generally, is because
Christianity is seen as a woman, warm, soft fuzzy thing. Unless more men take
up the teaching of children, then it will continue and male teenagers will continue
to fall away.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,786
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#53
Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
I dont know what churches you grow up in, but generally if someones teaching sunday school its on at the same time as the regular service so the sunday school teacher is not actually being taught by anyone else. So she (or he) has the authority in that case.

There will always be children to teach in sunday school so its not likely that those teaching are going to suddenly start attending regular church and have their children start teaching them when grown.

Another thing is Paul seemed to direct women to be silent so they could ask their husbands at home.
I dont know if the single women in his congregation were similarly admonished. But he did say single women were happier becuase they cared for things of the Lord. I dont know what the context of those church meetings would have been like...but it seems he had issues with noise control. Maybe some women were just quite vociferous! Perhaps the culture of the time was women to be seen and not heard.
But it could just be he was after some order, men first, then women. After all men were made first then women. Another thing he does say is that women are the weaker sex.

Personally I dont think we should read too much into it. I wouldnt have a problem with male teachers esp christian male teachers there ought to be more there seems to be a dearth of them, it would seem they are abdicating their roles as teachers when they shouldnt be. After all Jesus said to Peter not only to 'feed my sheep' but also to 'feed my lambs'. He also didnt forbid any children to come to him and blessed them.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,558
2,259
113
#54
Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
The teaching is that woman should not have authority over ""Men""

Woman teachers in schools have authority over Kids / Youths ... Not Men..

So there is no trouble with woman leading sunday school classes or being teachers in schools..
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,191
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#55
I think that's correct in that mankind several years back set fort laws that curbed many peoples thinking as to equality in the work places and changed the roles of men and women.

It did not take long for junk food type foods to become popular that could be just tossed into the oven(to tired to cook after work),then the microwave to make it even quicker. Divorce rates began to increase and children grew up in single family environments and now we have an genneration of young adults where most men cannot repair a lawnmower or check their tires and women who cannot follow a recipe to cook. So you are correct I think all the evidence supports the danger of man(kind) dictating roles on the family structure.

So you're blaming the break down of the family on the invention of the microwave? :p
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
11,946
2,273
113
#57
The teaching is that woman should not have authority over ""Men""

Woman teachers in schools have authority over Kids / Youths ... Not Men..

So there is no trouble with woman leading sunday school classes or being teachers in schools..
I understand this, and have seen other people make this point as well.

But this misses the very point I'm trying to make in this thread: the Lutheran college I would have gone to if I had wanted to be a Lutheran teacher has a large percentage of female staff.

Males in college would be around 18-22 (probably longer, as I don't remember how long it took to be a teacher or pastor.) In other words, these are fully-grown adults, and, I'm guessing, according to your definition, men - not children, not youths, not teens, but what I'm assuming would be seen in society as (hopefully) full-grown, adult males. But in this situation, women are instructing them and apparently, having authority over them.

The Lutheran synod (or at least, local church and schools I went to) I was raised in (WELS) does not allow any woman on a church board or to attend meetings of authority because they firmly believe in the ever-quoted passages about women not speaking in church, not having authority over men, and that if a woman has a question about church matters, she should ask her husband at home.

Butyet they have women teaching men, albeit presumably younger men, in a college that is raising up the next generation of pastors and teachers.

Now, I appreciate my former pastors and teachers, and am grateful for the Biblical background they gave me.

But I've seen inconsistencies like this all my life, and I'm at a point where I almost (almost, not quite yet) find them comical.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
1,897
825
113
#58
I understand this, and have seen other people make this point as well.

But this misses the very point I'm trying to make in this thread: the Lutheran college I would have gone to if I had wanted to be a Lutheran teacher has a large percentage of female staff.

Males in college would be around 18-22 - in other words, fully-grown adults, and, I'm guessing, according to your definition, men. But in this situation, women are instructing them and apparently, having authority over them.

The Lutheran synod (or at least, local church and schools I went to) I was raised in (WELS) does not allow any woman on a church board or to attend meetings of authority because they firmly believe in the ever-quoted passages about women not speaking in church, not having authority over men, and that if a woman has a question about church matters, she should ask her husband at home.

Butyet they have women teaching men, albeit presumably younger men, in a college that is raising up the next generation of pastors and teachers.

Now, I appreciate my former pastors and teachers, and am grateful for the Biblical background they gave me.

But I've seen inconsistencies like this all my life, and I'm at a point where I almost (almost, not quite yet) find them comical.
The limiting factor is "in the Church" per se. But as for me I have to say that I do not endorse women teach adult men in a college environment either. Its a slippery slope.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
6,240
113
#59
The teaching is that woman should not have authority over ""Men""
That's unfortunate, because it is not even consistent with what Paul wrote...

1 Timothy 2:12

KJV: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
NASB: But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
NIV: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,191
2,122
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#60
The limiting factor is "in the Church" per se. But as for me I have to say that I do not endorse women teach adult men in a college environment either. Its a slippery slope.
But the OPs point is, I think, these things are hypocritical. What's the difference between a college, that equips men to preach and church, none. Makes no sense whatsoever.