"If you continue to sin, you go to hell"

[TannarDarr]

Repent = turn around, change mind. "Father, I will turn from it" = "Father, I agree with you and I will turn from it".

What you said in that second paragraph speaks your purpose.

You write your own definitions. I don't think you will find more scholars to take your side vs my side. As I learned my side from them.

You impose the "want to" aspect because that is convenient with your theology I'm guessing. I grew up SBC. There is nothing in my explanation here that the SBC would agree with. I had to change my views to fit scripture, vs trying to squeeze scripture into my views.

Thus I had to accept the words for what they meant, not what I wanted them to mean.

I've changed. I can prove empirically I'm not afraid of changing. When you are faced with change, you turned to a personal attack at me.

I forgive you. Now talk shop, not personal jabs.

 

[TannarDarr]

can somebody lend me a hand here?

Home

Your church should know about this program. There should be one in your area somewhere. It's like AA but for all issues and it's theologically based. Well, so is AA for that matter, but this is a church focused thing.

You have more guilt than issue.

You do realize having a cigarette, while not wise by any means, isn't a sin, right? Nor is having a beer. Perhaps if you let yourself up on how you judge sins, you wouldn't put so much pressure on yourself that you feel like you failed and throw in the towel.

I dunno man, I'm reaching here. I don't know you nor the circumstances. However, this should be a one on one private conversation not in public here.

 

[TannarDarr]

FULTZ,

My apologies. I'm not going to edit my words so I'll be held accountable. It wasn't you who started the personal shots at me. But I reacted with you as if it were.

>>>>I use to be like you too, so I know where you are coming from.<<<<<

That was what put me on the defensive.

Your tone sounded like his/hers so I picked it up as if it were the same conversation. That's my bad.

However, the "chip on my shoulder" you assume to sense is still that, an assumption. I don't desire to get into pithy comments and retorts. I prefer to stick to the theology of the topic.

TY again for hearing my public admittance to error.

 

[Imperfect]

Home

Your church should know about this program. There should be one in your area somewhere. It's like AA but for all issues and it's theologically based. Well, so is AA for that matter, but this is a church focused thing.

You have more guilt than issue.

You do realize having a cigarette, while not wise by any means, isn't a sin, right? Nor is having a beer. Perhaps if you let yourself up on how you judge sins, you wouldn't put so much pressure on yourself that you feel like you failed and throw in the towel.

I dunno man, I'm reaching here. I don't know you nor the circumstances. However, this should be a one on one private conversation not in public here.

im less concerned about the drinking or hitting a cigarette here and there its just that it took my back to my pre-baptized days.

im more concerned about the sexual part. i feel shame, but i dont feel i have to keep my sins a secret. God tells us to confess our sins, so i do. at the same time, just looking for some uplifting advice / scripture / words.

is it wrong to receive fellatio? to penetrate but not follow through?

 

[TannarDarr]

im less concerned about the drinking or hitting a cigarette here and there its just that it took my back to my pre-baptized days.

im more concerned about the sexual part. i feel shame, but i dont feel i have to keep my sins a secret. God tells us to confess our sins, so i do. at the same time, just looking for some uplifting advice / scripture / words.

is it wrong to receive fellatio? to penetrate but not follow through?

1) Does God know everything in your belief? Past, present and future?
2) If so, did he know you would commit that act?
3) Did He accept you anyway?
4) Did he give you a plan for when things like that happened?
5) Do you sincerely want to find GOD????
6) Or are you just trying to avoid hell.

If number six, then you should be afraid.

If number five, what do you fear? There is no fear in perfect love. 1 j 4:16-18. Seems to me you need to start something to grow in love as that verse describes. That love has to do with gal 5:6 works of love through faith.

In short, you need to stop serving self, and putting you and your self focused desires forefront in your life. That isn't a switch we can turn off and on anymore than brain synapses are.

You get past looking at self by serving others. At the end of Paul's letters he constantly reminded them to go and serve the poor, the widows, etc...

Find a ministry and work in it. If you have an"event" don't look behind you, confess to a spiritual friend and move on. Look to the goal, not to the gutter. If you don't look down the road where you need to be, but look in the gutter you'll find yourself constantly steering yourself into the gutter.

Unfortunately most people sell God as a Fascist ruler, like Mussolini who tortures and kills anyone that He doesn't like. So that creates and maintains fear in many people in the Church. Now they may find God, who is Love, in spite of that fear, but the fear works antithetical to what God is about.

Why not focus on grow in love/service to others, rather than self pity and fear. Just accept you are afraid for now, trust that God knew before you did it and accepted you anyway, and look to the path you need to run and wait for the next error to occur. THEN get refocused, learn your lessons, and continue to run the race, but LOOK TO THE PRIZE, not to the sins behind you.

 

[cfultz3]

Where do you get agape = love of esteem.

I will give my definition and can back it up if you wish.

G25 agapaō - verb
To give esteem to someone or something. To accept that object because of its given value. It is willed (of the head) and not emotional as phileo. It embraces mental judgment and conscientious agreement with the will as a way of principle, duty and propriety. That object must have value in order for it to be esteemed. Therefore, agapao is love displayed through esteem and not through impulse (phileo = impulsive/sensational love). Unlike phileo, this love can and is commanded.

I'll agree you don't HAVE to still sin to become mature, but, I don't' know anyone who was fully mature from the moment of their "altar call".

And the reason I said that "is to" implies that it is mandatory.

"TO BE PERFECT" wasn't said to the mature at all, they are PERFECT by definition. They don't need to BE perfect, they ARE there. You help those to BE perfect who aren't there yet.

Phillippians 3 is a great chapter to read. Specifically, verse 12. I have heard it said that they who say that they do not possess sin only deceive themselves. Is this how you are using the word "perfect", understanding that there are about 10-15 words which can be translated as "perfect"?

Yes, your matthew 5 summary is about what I said it was. Close enough. You are to be perfect as God was, means you are to love even your enemies AND PROVIDE for them, even as HE does.

Just a minor correction here, and I do not mean offense by it, "...be perfect as God IS..."

Being mature doesn't have anything to do with making yourself not sin. that seems to be how you want to view it. You aren't perfect/mature because you don't sin, you don't sin because you are perfect/mature.

But, then again, we are reminded of that verse which says that the one who says that he does not possess sin only deceives himself. If one can acquire a sinless state here on Earth, then what need is there for us to be changed into uncorruptness?

John said he walked in the light AS GOD/JESUS does. Do you, with your theological bent on things, suggest that JESUS sinned? Because if you wish to claim HE did not sin, then to walk in the light AS HE DOES would mean that person wasn't sinning as well.

WOW!!! No, Jesus was God in the flesh. I have heard that He was the only sinless One. However, we do walk in the Light as He is in the Light and as God is in that Light, but we have not yet been made perfect, seeing that we still have blood in us.

Go to chapter 3. If you still sin you don't know Him and haven't yet MET Him. How can you be in fellowship with Him, walk in the light as HE does, and still sin?

Can you tell me the location of this. I have heard that if you we were (present indicative) to walk about in the Light as He is in the Light, then we do have fellowship with one another and the blood of His Son does cleans us from every sin. But, then again, that is talking about: to walk in darkness vs. to walk in the Light.
Your question: how can we walking the Light and still sin, should take into consideration the following: how can God accept us as sons and daughters while we are still in possession of our human nature. Only through His blood can we mortals walk before Him.

I think your view needs to come to grips with the fact you can be under Grace and not spiritually mature. AND that there is more to maturity than "being saved" and not sinning.

Col 2:11 shows maturity is something HE does to you. He removes that sinful nature. You don't' over come it.

HE gives you a new heart and mind. You don't change them.

May I please point you to the verses directly about verse 11. In it, you will see that we, the saints, are already perfect in Christ, seeing that we no longer need to sacrifice to correct our standing before God because He is our perpetual sacrifice.

Yes, we are circumcised (in Covenant with Him) by that which is not fleshly, but by Him who leads. The Spirit leads and as we hearken to Him, He puts away the sins of the flesh. Of course, we do not change them, He does because that what He desires of us is God's will, but, it is we who must hearken to Him or fall in the wilderness as did some of the Hebrews because they did not hearken (hear and obey) Him.

All we have to do is walk down the path He set before you. And do it with our heart and sincerity behind it. HE does the changing of you as you walk. Synergism, you have to walk and persevere and HE has to change you.

Yes, He sets the righteous path before us. But, will He drag one down that path or will He let one choice which path that one is to walked upon (Adam and Eve, Lucifer, fallen angels are perfect examples of those who choose the wrong path and none of them was dragged down the righteous path He laid before them). Proverbs is a good example of Wisdom beckoning one to hearken to her and in all her sayings, it always spoke of choices one is to make.

 

[Imperfect]

1) Does God know everything in your belief? Past, present and future?
2) If so, did he know you would commit that act?
3) Did He accept you anyway?
4) Did he give you a plan for when things like that happened?
5) Do you sincerely want to find GOD????
6) Or are you just trying to avoid hell.

If number six, then you should be afraid.

If number five, what do you fear? There is no fear in perfect love. 1 j 4:16-18. Seems to me you need to start something to grow in love as that verse describes. That love has to do with gal 5:6 works of love through faith.

In short, you need to stop serving self, and putting you and your self focused desires forefront in your life. That isn't a switch we can turn off and on anymore than brain synapses are.

You get past looking at self by serving others. At the end of Paul's letters he constantly reminded them to go and serve the poor, the widows, etc...

Find a ministry and work in it. If you have an"event" don't look behind you, confess to a spiritual friend and move on. Look to the goal, not to the gutter. If you don't look down the road where you need to be, but look in the gutter you'll find yourself constantly steering yourself into the gutter.

Unfortunately most people sell God as a Fascist ruler, like Mussolini who tortures and kills anyone that He doesn't like. So that creates and maintains fear in many people in the Church. Now they may find God, who is Love, in spite of that fear, but the fear works antithetical to what God is about.

Why not focus on grow in love/service to others, rather than self pity and fear. Just accept you are afraid for now, trust that God knew before you did it and accepted you anyway, and look to the path you need to run and wait for the next error to occur. THEN get refocused, learn your lessons, and continue to run the race, but LOOK TO THE PRIZE, not to the sins behind you.

you are exactly right.

i do feel God already knew before hand what i was going to do. i say this because the dream i had before i left last night. i took a nap and i dreamt about eggs so i looked up the interpretation of eggs in your dream and an aspect of the meaning was to face the consequences of your actions. and in the same dream, i had a scuffle with some guy, which could have been the struggle i went through last night. i ultimately came out on top and in control of the scuffle, which is refreshing to think about.

but about being selfless and selfish, i really am the last person you would consider selfish. im always helping or offering a helping hand, i just made a mistake last night. its not much compared to what i use to do, but wayyyy more than what im use to as of late. which is a good and bad thing. it shows how far i have come and how high my standards of living has been raised, but at the same time, it shows how much of a fall i took last night.

and as far as loving God and / or fearing hell. i sincerely love God, but at the same time, nobody wants to go to hell. so it always plays a part in how we feel.

do you think going to talk to a minister in private can help?

 

[Imperfect]

btw, @tannarDarr, i appreciate your time and efforts. thats why i love christians. always good people and willing to listen and help.

 

[cfultz3]

FULTZ,

My apologies. I'm not going to edit my words so I'll be held accountable. It wasn't you who started the personal shots at me. But I reacted with you as if it were.

>>>>I use to be like you too, so I know where you are coming from.<<<<<

That was what put me on the defensive.

Your tone sounded like his/hers so I picked it up as if it were the same conversation. That's my bad.

However, the "chip on my shoulder" you assume to sense is still that, an assumption. I don't desire to get into pithy comments and retorts. I prefer to stick to the theology of the topic.

TY again for hearing my public admittance to error.

You said you became defensive and then said that by me saying that you have a "chip on [your] shoulder" was just an assumption, but you admit that you were irradiated with someone else and I was the one who kicked your defensiveness off. So, then you did/do have a chip on your shoulder and it was not an assumption.

Neither do I wish to get into pithy comments and retorts, but me stating an observation quickly turned you bitter.

Maybe, we can start over?

 

[zone]

On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.1 j 2:8 nasb

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]1Jo 1:6[/TD]
[TD]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
To really condense the thought, John says if you want to be in fellowship with Him but still walk in the dark, you are mistaken.

THEN tells the people him and his coterie were writing to, that they are nearly there, they need a little more darkness passed away...

But, even though they weren't there yet, they still had Christ as their forgiving mediator. 1:9.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]1Jo 1:9[/TD]
[TD]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
John and his boys wrote this to help those they wrote be in fellowship with Him.

Apparently they knew Christ as He would mediate, but they weren't yet in fellowship with HIM. John wanted them to be in fellowship and they still had darkness that needed to be removed.

You need to read the scripture and test your presuppositions. Most people read it to prove their presuppositions.

um....this has nothing to do with the gnostic dualism john was addressing.

the stark truth of what john said applies to everyone - including john.

anyone claiming they have no sin is self-deceived.

the heresy of perfectionism was absolutely dispensed with in 1 john.


........


Verse 8. - After the great message," God is Light" (verse 5) and its application to ourselves (verses 6, 7), we are now told what walking in the light involves:

(1) consciousness of sin and confession of sin (verses 8-10);

(2) accepting the propitiation of Jesus Christ the Righteous (1 John 2:1-2);

(3) obedience (1 John 2:3-6). If we say that we have not sin. The present ἔχομεν again shows that the daily falls of those who are walking in the light are meant, not the sins committed in the days of darkness before conversion. The Lord's Prayer implies that we must daily ask forgiveness. We lead ourselves astray from the truth, and have no right estimate of the gulf between our impurity and God's holiness, if we deny this habitual frailty. In the sunlight even flame throws a shadow; and that man is in darkness who denies his sin. The truth may be near him; but it has not found a home with him - it is not in him. Πλανᾷν is specially frequent in the Revelation, and always of arch-deceivers - Satan, the beast, antichrist, false teachers; it seems to imply fundamental error (comp. 1 John 2:26).

- pulpit commentary

 

[cfultz3]

You write your own definitions. I don't think you will find more scholars to take your side vs my side. As I learned my side from them.

You impose the "want to" aspect because that is convenient with your theology I'm guessing. I grew up SBC. There is nothing in my explanation here that the SBC would agree with. I had to change my views to fit scripture, vs trying to squeeze scripture into my views.

Thus I had to accept the words for what they meant, not what I wanted them to mean.

I've changed. I can prove empirically I'm not afraid of changing. When you are faced with change, you turned to a personal attack at me.

I forgive you. Now talk shop, not personal jabs.

Then why would you say that if one disagrees with Me I will jab them and get them banned? Is this not your purpose or did I misread you when you imply that I am just trying to get you banned because I do not agree with you.

There is nothing to forgive me for, you are the one who said that and I made that observation in connection to you having said that. So, it would be best if you would take that injection away.

 

[cfultz3]

um....this has nothing to do with the gnostic dualism john was addressing.

the stark truth of what john said applies to everyone - including john.

anyone claiming they have no sin is self-deceived.

the heresy of perfectionism was absolutely dispensed with in 1 john.


........


Verse 8. - After the great message," God is Light" (verse 5) and its application to ourselves (verses 6, 7), we are now told what walking in the light involves:

(1) consciousness of sin and confession of sin (verses 8-10);

(2) accepting the propitiation of Jesus Christ the Righteous (1 John 2:1-2);

(3) obedience (1 John 2:3-6). If we say that we have not sin. The present ἔχομεν again shows that the daily falls of those who are walking in the light are meant, not the sins committed in the days of darkness before conversion. The Lord's Prayer implies that we must daily ask forgiveness. We lead ourselves astray from the truth, and have no right estimate of the gulf between our impurity and God's holiness, if we deny this habitual frailty. In the sunlight even flame throws a shadow; and that man is in darkness who denies his sin. The truth may be near him; but it has not found a home with him - it is not in him. Πλανᾷν is specially frequent in the Revelation, and always of arch-deceivers - Satan, the beast, antichrist, false teachers; it seems to imply fundamental error (comp. 1 John 2:26).

- pulpit commentary

Thank you Zone.....

 

[zone]

Thank you Zone.....

Hebrews 13:12
11For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach

 

[FREAK4JESUS]

So you don't think that you have any specific un-confessed in your life? You don't think you have any sin in your life that your current not aware of?

Luke 16:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Was it highly esteemed by men in the days when Christ sojourned on earth to be self-righteous? Ask the Scribes and Pharisees!

Then if I would think like that what is the use of Repenting everytime I kneel down? I am tired of todays church. They think that's enough. Lookwarm and love it! What? Hell is not that Lukewarm. Take care of where you are going! I am going to repent for what I've done. look at this revelation, if you pray every morning, and repent every morning, the bible says God's mercy is new every morning. So I do repent every morning, and every time when I kneel down look at the Lords prayer, it's the base for my prayer. I respect you!

 

[zone]

I believe that it is possible to be perfect, but I also believe that if you are not perfect than you are living in continual sin because you are not perfect. Or if you pray non stop from now on for ever and ever you are not breaking the command, "pray continually."

But I also believe that certain people will go to hell BECAUSE of sin. DoesJesus over look some sins but not others because we are making an attempt to be perfect and pray continually? but if we are not making an attempt to love God we do not deserve to inherit the Kingdom of God?

hi Owen.
how much do you love God?
enough?

how will you know?
are you saved because you love Him?
or because He loves you?

 

[jahsoul]

Sorry for the late response but when I saw the message, I was about to walk out the door heading to church. Got back home and spent time with the family..

Hey bub, Got some thoughts for you. We see this differently by the way, in other words we'll both think the other is nuts, but I would think you are bright/brave enough to consider the oppositions thoughts?

LOL @ Nuts...never that brother.

It's sorta like this. Salvation is being asked to be on God's baseball team.
But, where you were a power righty pitcher before, and a .400 batter righty before, God says you must now pitch and bat lefty. (I.E. changed life).


Now, joining the team doesn't make you automatically as good a lefty as you were a righty.


You can read books (bible scholar)
watch film (less studious, follows others examples)
until you are confident you know everything there is about throwing lefty and batting lefty.


But when you get on the mound, you'll throw like a physically confused dolt. You'll throw like a second grade girl that has only played with dolls all her life.


What must happen, is this. You must get on the mound and throw the ball lefty. Over and OVER and OVER and OVER,etc.... You'll throw astray several times as you grow to make a "new natural" in your life. ALong those mistakes/bad throws/sins John tells us that we have a mediator who will forgive us.. 1 john 1:8-2:1.

Awesome analogy but then we must ask ourselves, is the Holy Spirit, coupled with the Word of God and proper instruction not enough to keep up? (which will be a central theme to my post and will tie in when I get Romans 8). That is the key difference in your analogy and baseball. It's one thing to take on a new nature alone but it's another knowing that we have something in us once we accept Christ that we didn't have before. (another tie in to Romans 7 & 8).

early in chapter two he said those he wrote to still had darkness (sin) to be washed off. The people he wrote to, still had some growing to do, I.E. some sin mindset/lifestyle to be done away with. AND THEN they would be in fellowship with God, not before. John admitted that if you still sinned you weren't mature yet. I.E> perfect. BUT that along the path as you grew, if you fall, Christ still assumes your sin debt. That's called atonement. It's the first step in maturation. You have to reach the point that you know you can come home (prodigal) and after you start the walk, he'll give you strength to get there. When you get there, he'll wash you of your sins (col 2:11 sinful nature/flesh removed from the person) and you'll be His/Home/Clean again.

Actually, that was moreso in Chapter 1. In Chapter 2, John begins it by saying he is writing this so that they may not sin. And he was even more stern in Chapter 3, saying that whoever sins (hamartánoon) has not seen or known Him. Wow. Honestly, the first step of maturation is surviving the test of temptation that opens the door to sin.

Love Romans 6. Vs 22 shows that "now that you are atoned for" (that is salvation), and have become a slave to God, (that is obedience see vs 16 I think) THEN YOU RECEIVE A BENEFIT (not defined here but I'd say col 2:11), and the benefit leads to sanctification, or being made apart, made different.

You are looking at it as what YOU can do against sin. Scripture, in my Bible at least, says HE will give you a new heart, and HE will change how your mind works, and HE will teach you how to love. IF HE is the one going to do the changes, isn't important that you worry about walking the path he set you on, that you love His neighbors, feed the poor, etc... for him to do the changes. I.E. start to pitch lefty. Then let your coach help you in the change.
Salvation is a monergistic (I.E> only God alone can grant atonement)
Maturation is Synergistic (I.E. God works with your life to change you.)


if you only see salvation as the goal, you miss the most important part of the boat, and may miss it entirely.

Hey, I love Romans 6 too but if you read it, it pretty much draws a spritual line in the sand; you are either a slave to Christ OR a slave to sin. Should we sin because we are no longer under the law but grace? Also, I believe that you read that wrong. Romans 6:22 doesn't state that you have been atoned for; but it states that you have been set free (eleutheroo) from sin. That presents it in a whole new light then the way set forth. Christ atonement on the cross is the act that brought forth the state of being set free from sin.


And yes, it is things that we do regarding staying strong in the Lord. I've never seen my Bible glide to me nor was forced to get on my knees and pray. The Bible tells us to put on the full armour of God. so we can stand against the enemy. Things are not a given, and that's probably why people fall into continual sin. Again, do we give the Holy Spirit any credit?


Again, maturation does not equal sin. Do some sin along the way? Yes but in life, we have those who learn from being taught and those who feel like they need experience.

Continual sin is the "sinful nature" Paul discusses in Romans 7 and shows the answer to in Romans 8. It is removed by Christ (not your endeavors) at a point in your maturing like a circumcision (which as you know doesn't grow back). Col 2:11.


Change will only occur by living life and learning to live it differently. You'll fail along the way but He'll coach you, train you through life and through more failures, and you'll end up as spiritually mature as Jesus the Christ was. That's what scripture says.


So you are saved at the altar call (*maybe...) (*assuming sincerity, etc...)
You work at Obedience Rom 6:16
You do the loving acts you were saved to do. Gal 5:6
Through the love/works He changes you. Eph 4:11-17
The change is as mature as Christ was.... eph 4 again.
That person is in fellowship with God 1 john 1:3-7,
And he Knows God so he does not sin any longer 1 j 3:6


Note, knows Him in 3:6 is akin to in fellowship with Him in 1:4ish.


You don't stop sinning when you are saved, that is your process to change your life.


You have been changed by God when you are mature, and that change is Godly, and you do not do sins anylonger. That is the post conjunction conclusion of 1 john 3:9 OU hamartano. NOT SIN AGAIN.

Romans 7 & 8 or as I like to call it "The Power of God in the transition from Law to Spirit." If you read Romans 7, he speaks of life under the Law. Where I don't have nothing but myself to try to steer my actions. I want to do what right but I have nothing to keep me from doing wrong. This is exactly what Paul was talking about. The law was not bad in itself but sin produced an evil desire in what the Law showed was sin. Also, the Law in itself could not bring life. If you read 25, you would see one thing missing. He mentioned that he followed the law in his mind but sin in his flesh, but what about the Spirit.


Romans 8 brings that in. There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk according to the Spirit. Because the law was weak through flesh, God sent his Son in sinful flesh, and while living a sinless life, condemned sin in the flesh. Because of the Spirit, the righteous requirement of the law was fulfilled. Romans 8 also tells us that the Spirit helps us in our weakness.


So, to finish this off, what changes our life is the Holy Spirit. Sin is not the process to change our lives but the sign of one weak in the Spirit. If sinning is part of the process to change my life, I totally negate the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TannarDarr]

I will give my definition and can back it up if you wish.

I wonder how they mean the word "esteem".
The word Agapao is used for rape.
it's used for lusting things that re against God. I guess esteemed would work in both those cases as it's similar to lust if you get REALLY REALLY .... nah, it doesn't work at all. Empirical uses of the word in Greek lit, contradict the definition you posted. The nature of parts of it are good.

It's an emotion that is demonstrated. By demonstrated I mean acted upon. A person who says I LOVE THE SINNERS, but never has any action in their life to demonstrate that love, does not Agapao them. Thus gal 5:6, works of faith through love, or love through faith, whichever it is... and matt 5, God loves His enemies, you know it because he provides for them. As I read your definition, I'd argue with it's authors. I concede when they explained things we might concur when I saw how they got there. But at this point.... nope.

===========

"TO BE PERFECT" wasn't said to the mature at all, they are PERFECT by definition. They don't need to BE perfect, they ARE there. You help those to BE perfect who aren't there yet.

And the reason I said that "is to" implies that it is mandatory.

I'm lost. You don't have to not sin to be saved/grace/atoned for. That is a separate issue than being a mature believer. A mature believer walks in the light AS HE DOES. If HE didn't sin, then if you do you are not walking as HE is. If you walk by the Spirit, you WILL NOT (not may not) give into the temptations of the flesh.

To be mature, is to be mature. A result of being mature is you do not sin any longer. It's not something you accomplish to become mature. The whole sin issue is a result, not a step in the path.

Phil 3 is a great chapter. Paul says him and others are perfect.telioo. finished, mature, complete. He says that folks shouldn't walk around with the big head CONSIDERING themselves perfect, and when you are perfect you should keep the humble mindset he describes.

Scripturally, in every author's books that speaks of maturity, an argument is made that they will not sin any longer. The topic here was about if you still sin, you go to hell.

We can both agree that isn't the case, right? You can continue to sin, and have Christ mediate your forgiveness and you still have Grace.

Phillippians 3 is a great chapter to read. Specifically, verse 12. I have heard it said that they who say that they do not possess sin only deceive themselves. Is this how you are using the word "perfect", understanding that there are about 10-15 words which can be translated as "perfect"?

Paul is discussing maturity, not sin
.
If you accept verse 12 to be Paul saying he's not perfect, then it makes Paul a liar and a hypocrite as in vs 15 he says himself and others are perfect.

In vs 13 the key word to tie it together is found. He doesn't consider himself..... meaning, not that he isn't, but that he doesn't walk around with the big head on the topic.

"Not that I have attained it but I press on as if I hadn't. ( IT in this verse is discussing his claim to being raised from the dead, he doesnt' assume he's earned that right.)

I don't think about it, and I don't look at any sins behind me, I keep running the race, because laong the race God will do the rest, not me... (borrowing from other letters of Paul.)

So, those of us who ARE perfect should keep that humble mindset....

Just a minor correction here, and I do not mean offense by it, "...be perfect as God IS..."

I was paraphrasing. If you think it changed the meaning, then we should discuss it. I have no issue with you correcting the paraphrase.

But, then again, we are reminded of that verse which says that the one who says that he does not possess sin only deceives himself. If one can acquire a sinless state here on Earth, then what need is there for us to be changed into uncorruptness?

One can't acquire, one grows, with God as the Gardner and becomes full grown. He does things along the way, but through the things he does, God changes him. NOT he changes himself through the things he does.

The verse 1:8, 1j, admits a truth we all admit to. For all have sinned..... everyone of us has sinned, every one of us possess sin. The verse can NOT be twisted to say that we will sin forever, continually. If it did, the author contradicts himself in about 8 other verses in the letter. Look the blunt of it is this, there is one verse THAT MIGHT lean your direction. The gist of the letter and 8 other places lean the more literal interpretation I hold. (not trying to make a #$@ contest, there sorry.) I have to dance around a no verses with my interpretation, just work them and I had to break down, over about 8 years, my SBC upbringing with one biblical truth after another that didn't fit their teachings (on certain topics, I respect the SBC greatly). I'm stubborn. I DID NOT WANT TO BE WRONG. I got angry, I had fights over it. I through a leather bible through the sheetrock on the wall. It was really really disturbing I felt violated being taught stuff that was soteriological warm fuzzies and CRAP compared to the truth of the book. I'm just sharing how I got here so you know it's not some flippant claim. NOR do I have anything to prove like some denominations do, I don't claim to be there yet.

My only, ONLY motive is what does the Bible actually say.

Jesus wasn't about sin and salvation. That's just a minor part of what His purpose was on earth.
The purpose was changing lives, not giving a title. We are INSTRUMENTS OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are to be perfected/matured to do the works on earth that we were born and bred to do. The more mature we are, the more complete our works will be. Works don't' save you, don't waste our time with that tangent, but through works you are matured. And we are saved to do those works. WE HAVE A PURPOSE just as sure as a hammer and a screwdriver have. We have to find out if we are a hammer or some other tool. MOST of the church run around like ice picks trying to drive paneling nails. I'm not sure I'm not one of them still.

WOW!!! No, Jesus was God in the flesh. I have heard that He was the only sinless One. However, we do walk in the Light as He is in the Light and as God is in that Light, but we have not yet been made perfect, seeing that we still have blood in us.

Forgive my bluntness, but how can you say you walk in the light as his non sinning self walked in the light, where light is GODLIKE and darkness is sin, but that you still sin? That's like saying you are in the water but dry as Sahara's desert. HIS WALK WAS LIGHT, GOD IS LIGHT, HE DID NOT SIN. If I walk as HE does, then I am not sinning. Gal 5:16 corroborates that. If you walk in the Spirit you will NOT give into the temptations of the flesh. That word for the negative in the verse is an absolute NO, with no room for bending.

I"m not making fun of you, but syntax and words do not allow me to make some leap to say I can walk in the light/sinless state he does but I still sin. I can't bend the words to go there.

Can you tell me the location of this. I have heard that if you we were (present indicative) to walk about in the Light as He is in the Light, then we do have fellowship with one another and the blood of His Son does cleans us from every sin. But, then again, that is talking about: to walk in darkness vs. to walk in the Light.

That's 1 John1 3 or four, somewhere in there.


[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD] 1Jo 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
Tools specific to 1Jo 1:7
1Jo 1:7
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

sorry for formatting.
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]1Jo 3:6
[/TD]
[TD]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or fnknows Him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
yes I put those together as part of the same message as it's the same letter and the purpose was to help them be in fellowship which means walk in the light as he does and not in the darkness in fact with the darkness removed from you. I dont' see how you can claim fellowship with Him, without seeing Him or knowing Him. If you are IN HIM, you do not sin. If you sin, you don't know Him yet. That is the word KNOW you find in Know your wife. It's not just a knowledge know, a more fulfilling and complete know.

Your question: how can we walking the Light and still sin, should take into consideration the following: how can God accept us as sons and daughters while we are still in possession of our human nature. Only through His blood can we mortals walk before Him.

he doesn't. read col 2:11 and romans 8:9.
The sinful nature/sarx/flesh is removed by a circumcision done by Christ. Either you think Christ strips us and flails of our flesh, or that the verse references the sinful nature.

Romans 8 says IF YOU ARE INDWELLED BY THE SPIRIT, you are no longer in the flesh. The greek says, you are no longer in the flesh, no tricks to the translation.

Part of the maturing process, I reckon the last, but dont' presume to really know, would be the Removal of the SARX/Flesh and then the indwelling of the Spirit of God. (*yes you think us to be already indwelled, so that doesn't make sense. I'm taking the verse as written though. And that means where you think we are indwelled already, I think He is working ON US but not yet IN us.)

May I please point you to the verses directly about verse 11. In it, you will see that we, the saints, are already perfect in Christ, ...

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
and in Him you have been made fncomplete, and He is the head fnover all rule and authority;
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or fnknows Him.1 j 3:6

Saying IN HIM the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, does not mean that you are that already.
AND IN HIM you have been made complete (if you are not in him you have not yet BEEN MADE complete//// it's a conditional statement.)
and in HIM you were also circumcised of the removal fo the body of flesh.

Even if I accept it as you suggest vs 10 says I should, you are still avoiding what verse 11 does say. Taking your argument as written, you are simply showing vs 10 and 11 contradict each other. Eleven says you aren' tin the flesh IF you are in Him.

1 j 3:6 says if you still sin, you are not in him, haven't seen him, and don't know him...... (let's add...>) YET to that.


Why do you presume the we applies to all of us? Paul wrote that there were perfect and imperfect, milk and meat. He said he speaks of different things to the MEAT than to the milk because the milk can't follow those conversations. Now, think about it, the meat are there, they have arrived they don't' need help. The milk are the ones trying to get there, right? I think you can read that as WE, (those with Paul who are already mature) not we as in all of us.

....seeing that we no longer need to sacrifice to correct our standing before God because He is our perpetual sacrifice.

I'll save my comments on "standing" theology for it's own thread. the sacrifice isn't for everyone. well it's for everyone, but there are still conditions to it. Confession, repentance, believing, etc....at what point is that yours.....

Yes, we are circumcised (in Covenant with Him) by that which is not fleshly, but by Him who leads.

why do you add covenant to the topic? I don't have to add or take away words for my view.. Covenant isn't mentioned in context nor example here. AND if you think it is just a covenant, then you just turned sarx/flesh/sinful nature into an unreal thing. Because it's said to be removed in a way that doesn't grow back.

it reads as, at some point the sinful nature is removed by Christ. And in ROmans it says when it's gone, the spirit of God can indwell. IF IT REMAINS then the Spirit of God does not yet indwell you. Not only do you have to play with the words here in colossians, but this removes the only thing that makes romans 8:9 make sense and not look like utter bs.

The Spirit leads and as we hearken to Him, He puts away the sins of the flesh. Of course, we do not change them, He does because that what He desires of us is God's will, but, it is we who must hearken to Him or fall in the wilderness as did some of the Hebrews because they did not hearken (hear and obey) Him.

OK we are on the same page on this small bit, at least. I agree. And I'll add, that where we must walk is through our works of love through faith. Scripture says through our works we'll be made as mature as Christ was on earth.

Yes, He sets the righteous path before us. But, will He drag one down that path or will He let one choice which path that one is to walked upon (Adam and Eve, Lucifer, fallen angels are perfect examples of those who choose the wrong path and none of them was dragged down the righteous path He laid before them). Proverbs is a good example of Wisdom beckoning one to hearken to her and in all her sayings, it always spoke of choices one is to make.

Yeah, I'm ok here too. As Paul wrote, he doesn't look behind him for sins, he looks to the prize. And in another place, he who perseveres will be His. We gotta run the path to be mature as maturity comes through works. and those works are our path. Instruments of righteousness.

Look, not in a crappy way, but I don't care what you believe or don't' believe. I'm not here to change your mind. If I'm wrong, I want to see it. I believe my angle, you believe yours. I've been where you are, and changed because of scripture. That doesn't' mean I presume my change is right, but until a compelling argument comes along to change me again, I stick to what I see. I hope you can respect this view I take. And only by smashing my views, transparently, against other's views can I test it and see if there isn't something I've not considered.

 

[TannarDarr]

Then why would you say that if one disagrees with Me I will jab them and get them banned? Is this not your purpose or did I misread you when you imply that I am just trying to get you banned because I do not agree with you.

There is nothing to forgive me for, you are the one who said that and I made that observation in connection to you having said that. So, it would be best if you would take that injection away.

The banned comment wasn't to you.

It's to another person I know, that I was reading, who got banned for correctly by all of church history describing Trinity.

You don't seem the type to be that petty or petulant.

 

[letti]

I would have to say its in the heart.Christ has mercy much more than we give him credit for.Any that truly love him want to obey him naturally because that love for him and from him is in ones heart.

 

[cfultz3]

I wonder how they mean the word "esteem".
The word Agapao is used for rape.
it's used for lusting things that re against God. I guess esteemed would work in both those cases as it's similar to lust if you get REALLY REALLY .... nah, it doesn't work at all. Empirical uses of the word in Greek lit, contradict the definition you posted. The nature of parts of it are good.

Are you even serious??????

One just has to look at the verses this word is used in and see that it means love, the very same love the Father had/has for the Son.

Thayer:

G25
ἀγαπάω
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Citing in TDNT: 1:21, 5


Strong:

G25
ἀγαπάω
agapaō
ag-ap-ah'-o
Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.