Interpreting Divine Scripture.

[Scotth1960]

Scripture is not Devine. If it is, then maybe you should pray to your bible.

God the Father is Devine. Jesus the Son is Devine. The Holy Spirit is Devine. Worship them.

Scripture is the Scripture OF GOD. FROM GOD. Therefore, it is the Divine Scripture. You are misinterpreting the meaning of this term, "Divine Scripture". No. Scripture is not GOD. You go too far! Scripture is the WORD OF GOD, and therefore, it is THE DIVINE WORD. You should already understand this if you are not just trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

An excerpt:

II. APPEAL TO TRADITION

When it comes to a proper understanding of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is all the believer needs (1 John 2:27). The believer does not need the "church fathers," or the supposed great men of God in the past, or church history, or commentaries, or Bible scholars, or some particular man, etc.. Any appeal otherwise is an appeal to the tradition of men. In Colossians 2:8 Paul warned,

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

​

We do not need the "teaching of the ages" (the tradition of men) to understand the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is all we need to understand the Word of God. 1 John 2:26-27 says,

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

​

Do we need to have the "oaring" or the anchor of church tradition to keep us from wandering from the truth? No. We need the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. (1 John 2:20-21)

​

Found in the context of these verses (1 John 2:20-21, 26-27) are verses about antichrists (1 John 2:18-19). 1 John 4:1-6 says,

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

​

Likewise, 2 John 7 says,

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

​

What is it to "not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh"? Basically, it is to deny the truth of 2 Peter 1:3 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17, or to deny what is seen in 1 John 2:26-27 - that all you need is Christ, His Word and His Spirit. If someone comes along and says you need the traditions of men to properly understand the Word of God and/or to live this life as we ought - that is antichrist. If someone comes along with empty deceit, swaying you away from following the Word of Christ - that is antichrist. If someone persuades you toward philosophy or pragmatism (basic principles of the world) - that is antichrist.

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. [Why?] For [because] in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Colossians 2:8-10)

​

In other words, you don't need philosophy. You don't need the tradition of men. You don't need basic principles that work in this world. You need Christ, and Him alone. Because "in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". In other words, God is in the flesh in Christ. God, Jesus Christ, has come in the flesh. Believers are complete in Christ and need nothing else for living out this life in godliness, holiness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23; Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:14-16). You don't need psychology, or traditions (handed down teachings other than the Word of God) or "what works" (basic principles of the world), etc.. 2 Peter. 1:2-3 says,

. . . as His divine power has given to us all things [we are not lacking anything] that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

​

The believer has all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Christ (the Word, Revelation 19:13; Hebrews 4:12-13). We don't need anything else. To say we do is to deny Christ has come in the flesh, and is antichrist (against Christ). 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

​

The Word of God is all you need to make you "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." When teachers or anyone comes along and says, "You need commentaries or the early church fathers or the understanding of the studies of the supposed men of God of the past, in order to properly understand the Word of God," this is antichrist. Some may refer you to "the historic Christian faith" or "Orthodox Christianity." These terms point to the traditions of men (Colossians 2:8). This appeal is antichrist. What is the true standard for truth? It is the Word of God, not "historic Christianity." Such an appeal to tradition exposes a man to be a false teacher, whose trust is not in God, who is in the flesh (Jesus Christ, John 1:14, Colossians 2:9), but rather in the tradition of men (Colossians 2:8-10; 2 John 7).

Dear friend, Everytime you say, "The Bible says," you appeal to tradition. And you appeal to your own reading of the Bible. As for Orthodox Christianity, do you KNOW what that is? Do you know what the Creed of 381 AD says? Do you not know that this Creed of 318 Orthodox bishops is taken directly from the BIBLE, and is based upon BIBLICAL TEACHING? It is a summary, in GREEK WORDS, of the TEACHING OF THE NT. It is a written SUMMARY OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD. It says, "Christ is God." Therefore, your SLANDER against Orthodox Christianity is TOTALLY FALSE. Your appeal is ANTI-CHURCH. What the CHURCH TEACHES IS JESUS CHRIST. If you deny what the Churches, you also deny the Christ that the Church preaches. How can you say "Christ is Lord", and say there is no Church? Which Church? Where was Martin Luther and John Calvin in the early days? There can be many CHRISTIANS outside the Church. A Christian is any soul that says "JESUS CHRIST IS LORD", and who believes salvation is by God's grace, not by works we do in righteousness (TITUS), and therefore by grace that comes from repentance and baptism. And all the rest of the mystery of the Christian faith, the ministry of the early CHURCH. What did the early Church have? BISHOPS? Where the bishop is, there is the Church, and each Church has a bishop. When there is no bishop, this is only a temporary situation. Some denominations deny bishops, though. Thus they misread 1 and 2 Timothy.
People today STILL MISREAD THE NT. To appeal to Church history is to appeal to the Holy Spirit of God, as Christ, who is God, founded a Church, not a private interpretation of the NT. The Church existed LONG BEFORE THE NT WAS EVEN WRITTEN. The same Church exists today, and is the GUARDIAN OF THE NT (1 Timothy 3:15), for the CHURCH, not THE BIBLE, is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). Otherwise, we misunderstand much of the NT, as Luther did misunderstand, and we must remember what St. Peter said in 2 Peter 3:16! In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS It is wrongheaded to pit faith in Jesus Christ as God against faith in the Church that Christ founded!

 

[VW]

Scripture is the Scripture OF GOD. FROM GOD. Therefore, it is the Divine Scripture. You are misinterpreting the meaning of this term, "Divine Scripture". No. Scripture is not GOD. You go too far! Scripture is the WORD OF GOD, and therefore, it is THE DIVINE WORD. You should already understand this if you are not just trying to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Even as I type for this chat group, whenever I use the word "Divine," the auto correction software gives the word capitalization.

It will be, has been, our biggest failing, to hold scripture as Divine.

If the word has any value at all, it is because of who and what God is, and the importance He puts on His word and integrity. When we see scripture as a representative of God on and in earth, we make a grace error.

If you think I have gone too far, you have no idea of just how far we have departed from the faith which was handed down to the church from the original apostles.

No, I do not disagree for the sake of disagreement, but in the hope of holiness and grace and salvation.

 

[Red33]

Even as I type for this chat group, whenever I use the word "Divine," the auto correction software gives the word capitalization.

It will be, has been, our biggest failing, to hold scripture as Divine.

If the word has any value at all, it is because of who and what God is, and the importance He puts on His word and integrity. When we see scripture as a representative of God on and in earth, we make a grace error.

If you think I have gone too far, you have no idea of just how far we have departed from the faith which was handed down to the church from the original apostles.

No, I do not disagree for the sake of disagreement, but in the hope of holiness and grace and salvation.

Do the words that you speak represent you and what you think? Do your words reveal what is in your heart? When you instruct your kids, do you mean exactly what you say to them? Can your kids trust that what you tell them has no pretense or ulterior-motive? If you wrote a letter to your wife can she trust what you wrote as coming from your mind and heart? If your kids and your wife can trust your words that you give to them, why can't you trust the inspired words that God has given as representing His mind and heart? The scripture is God's spoken word written down and is trustworthy because it is divinely inspired. God is His word and His word represents Him 100%. You can not separate God from His word because the word is God and it became flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[VW]

Do the words that you speak represent you and what you think? Do your words reveal what is in your heart? When you instruct your kids, do you mean exactly what you say to them? Can your kids trust that what you tell them has no pretense or ulterior-motive? If you wrote a letter to your wife can she trust what you wrote as coming from your mind and heart? If your kids and your wife can trust your words that you give to them, why can't you trust the inspired words that God has given as representing His mind and heart? The scripture is God's spoken word written down and is trustworthy because it is divinely inspired. God is His word and His word represents Him 100%. You can not separate God from His word because the word is God and it became flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus Christ.

Did God have children and leave them a letter, a book, telling them how to live?

No, He came and took up an abode in us Himself.

You would have the word be God.

God would take that job Himself, in us.

 

[PBUH]

I copy before I post. If it doesn't come up go in and edit it and it will usually post.

Sorry I meant I don't know what your are referring to.

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

Hi Journey and scott,

Journey, you say:

Hi, Do not call man Father who is a spiritual leader, priest, or pastor.

Jesus said:Matthew 23:9

And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Can you see any difference between what you have said, and what Jesus said? Can any one see the difference? Please believe that I totally understand your point about spritual leaders not deserving the title, but can you see my point about how that is different from what Jesus said?

God is telling us to put him first and this title belongs to him because he's earned it and all belongs to him.

Yeah, the Title belongs to him. So what happens when we say "Yes, Sir Mr. Johnson"? Father and master, two titles that belong to God, which Jesus himself said not to use for any man on earth, used for a man on this Earth.

I know that Jesus is talking to the Jews here, but it also applies to the gentiles as the whole message of NT was intended for us.

Yeah I think you are correct. Even though the physical ethnicity of the people he was addressing was Jewish, the scripture states that his teachings were addressed to his followers. If you are a follower of Jesus, this teaching applies to you.

Matthew 23:1

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

What about Paul saying he became their father through the Gospel?

Jesus said do not be called Father, not that we cannot be fathers.

However, I think you may have a point with the Paul thing, But please also consider this...

Galations 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You see, Paul himself understood that he was not infallible. If he made himself the spiritual father over someone, (i.e. taking the place of God) then that makes Paul wrong, not Jesus.

The fact is, if we want to know what this means, we should read what the early fathers of the church said about this.

Why not just look at what Jesus said about it and believe him? What if we didn't have any information from the "early fathers"? What if we only had the words of Jesus? What would you do then?

I think this is the danger that comes when we try to use people like Paul, whether he is claiming to be the spiritual father of others or making tents for a living (as opposed to preaching the gospel like God told him to) to counter the teachings of Jesus. As great as paul or any of the other early Apostles were, they still don't outweigh Jesus.

Why bother those who protest and say we should not call priests father, because it would be against Christ's words.

Umm, I'm not sure if I'm getting what you are saying here, but ummm, because it IS against Christ's words?

Why they insist on taking this saying of Christ at literal value, and then they distort the plain teaching on the Holy Spirit.

Once again, I'm not quite sure where you are going with this, but I think there definitely are times when it's quite clear that Jesus wants us to take him literally.

For example, If I tell you not to turn on the TV at all, for any reason, while I'm away from the house, and then I come back home and find you watching channel 8, I will ask why you did not obey my instructions. Do you think I will be impressed with you if you explain that you thought I meant that it was okay to turn on the tv as long as I didn't watch channel 10?

I said do not turn on the tv, right?\

Can you see the comparison here? I think the point here is, is Jesus able to command you? Is he able to give an order and expect you to obey it? Lord and saviour, remember?

"At Issue Is Interpretation "Some interpreters inside Protestantism are sure Jesus was warning against addressing church leaders as father. They, of course, are interpreting "father" in this Scripture to mean spiritual father. Therefore, they refuse to call their clergymen father, preferring instead such titles as pastor, reverend, or perhaps even brother.

Ok, some people interpret it as meaning that they CAN watch television as long as they don't watch channel 10. But what did Jesus say? "Call no man on Earth father". I don't understand why this gets so complicated.

In response to pointing out what I've already said, (i.e. that Jesus was excluding any human on earth from the title, the author asks this question...

"But was Christ saying to be taken at face value as we had generally done?

I bet you don't ask this kind of question when Jesus talks about salvation. Why is that? Why is salvation literal, but Jesus saying "do not do it" should not be taken at face value?

"But let us not stop here. For in addition to saying "only One is your Father," Jesus also declared, "Do not be called "Rabbi", for One is your Teacher, the Christ" (Matthew 23:8). Yet Jesus Christ Himself acknowledged Nicodemus as the "teacher of Israel" (John 3:10).

Whoever this guy is, he's trying very hard to argue against what Jesus very clearly said. It is dishonest of him to say "Jesus Christ himself acknowledged Nicodemus as the "teacher of Israel".

Here is what Jesus actually said.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Notice that is it not a statement of fact, as the author you are quoting has claimed. It is a question, and a bit of a rhetorical one at that. Nicodemus claimed to be a teacher, and yet he could not understand the very simple spiritual lessons that Jesus was teaching. Jesus was confronting Nicodemus' pride with a question.

When people resort to dishonesty to make their point, you know there is a problem.

But let me ask you, Scott, what do you have to LOSE by taking the teaching literally? Why the fierce arguments against it?

What would happen to you life if you decided "well hey, he did say "no man on Earth" so why don't I just give it a try and see what happens"?

 

[Broern]

The Bible is the word of God given to be read, studied, and understood individually.The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to provide enlightenment to the person. Jesus said, the Holy Spirit will teach "all the truth" and remind us of His commandments. Of course it is by faith. There are divisions because of human wisdom applied using the Bible verses for personal motive, whatever. Interpretations from the Bible are just a guide and not to be taken as truth unless it reflects the truth from the Bible, as practiced by the Bereans. The problem is laziness to read, study and search for the truth individually and the Holy Spirit is grieved or quenched hence He can not minister to the individual.

 

[Scotth1960]

[quote=cows_chewing_grass;384590]Hi Journey and scott,

Journey, you say:


Jesus said:Matthew 23:9


Can you see any difference between what you have said, and what Jesus said? Can any one see the difference? Please believe that I totally understand your point about spritual leaders not deserving the title, but can you see my point about how that is different from what Jesus said?



Yeah, the Title belongs to him. So what happens when we say "Yes, Sir Mr. Johnson"? Father and master, two titles that belong to God, which Jesus himself said not to use for any man on earth, used for a man on this Earth.



Yeah I think you are correct. Even though the physical ethnicity of the people he was addressing was Jewish, the scripture states that his teachings were addressed to his followers. If you are a follower of Jesus, this teaching applies to you.

Matthew 23:1




Jesus said do not be called Father, not that we cannot be fathers.

However, I think you may have a point with the Paul thing, But please also consider this...

Galations 1:8


You see, Paul himself understood that he was not infallible. If he made himself the spiritual father over someone, (i.e. taking the place of God) then that makes Paul wrong, not Jesus.



Why not just look at what Jesus said about it and believe him? What if we didn't have any information from the "early fathers"? What if we only had the words of Jesus? What would you do then?

I think this is the danger that comes when we try to use people like Paul, whether he is claiming to be the spiritual father of others or making tents for a living (as opposed to preaching the gospel like God told him to) to counter the teachings of Jesus. As great as paul or any of the other early Apostles were, they still don't outweigh Jesus.



Umm, I'm not sure if I'm getting what you are saying here, but ummm, because it IS against Christ's words?



Once again, I'm not quite sure where you are going with this, but I think there definitely are times when it's quite clear that Jesus wants us to take him literally.

For example, If I tell you not to turn on the TV at all, for any reason, while I'm away from the house, and then I come back home and find you watching channel 8, I will ask why you did not obey my instructions. Do you think I will be impressed with you if you explain that you thought I meant that it was okay to turn on the tv as long as I didn't watch channel 10?

I said do not turn on the tv, right?\

Can you see the comparison here? I think the point here is, is Jesus able to command you? Is he able to give an order and expect you to obey it? Lord and saviour, remember?



Ok, some people interpret it as meaning that they CAN watch television as long as they don't watch channel 10. But what did Jesus say? "Call no man on Earth father". I don't understand why this gets so complicated.

In response to pointing out what I've already said, (i.e. that Jesus was excluding any human on earth from the title, the author asks this question...


I bet you don't ask this kind of question when Jesus talks about salvation. Why is that? Why is salvation literal, but Jesus saying "do not do it" should not be taken at face value?



Whoever this guy is, he's trying very hard to argue against what Jesus very clearly said. It is dishonest of him to say "Jesus Christ himself acknowledged Nicodemus as the "teacher of Israel".

Here is what Jesus actually said.



Notice that is it not a statement of fact, as the author you are quoting has claimed. It is a question, and a bit of a rhetorical one at that. Nicodemus claimed to be a teacher, and yet he could not understand the very simple spiritual lessons that Jesus was teaching. Jesus was confronting Nicodemus' pride with a question.

When people resort to dishonesty to make their point, you know there is a problem.

But let me ask you, Scott, what do you have to LOSE by taking the teaching literally? Why the fierce arguments against it?

What would happen to you life if you decided "well hey, he did say "no man on Earth" so why don't I just give it a try and see what happens"?[/quote]

Dear friend, Some object to calling ministers "father". But then they call their own ministers reverend, brother, pastor, elder, and so on. Christ did not say Call no man brother, pastor, elder. Etc. But then, He did not command people to call them brother, friend, etc. He neither forbad nor commanded it. How do we know what He meant unless we look what the early church did? Why would we follow a recent view which refuses to take seriously how Christians have read Scripture in days past? Why just go it on our own and think we can go privately and understand everything Christ say. Protestants and Catholics go privately to John 15:26, and they add words to Christ's words when they say in their version of the "Creed", "and the Son." SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE! The HISTORIC CHURCH always said and believed "WHO PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER". Talk about this is more important than whether or not we are allowed to call anyone father. Is it wrong to call fathers and grandfathers by their titles? Is that what Christ was saying? You can't say "grandpa" to your "grandpa" because it would be calling someone grand "father"?
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

Jesus said, the Holy Spirit will teach "all the truth" and remind us of His commandments.

Nice quote, broern. Any practical examples of those commandments you would like to share?

I'm currently discussing "call no man father" with scott but some other examples would be welcomed, I'm sure.

How do we know what He meant unless we look what the early church did?

I don't know what this fascination is you have with the early, church, but I was asking you to just look at the teachings of Jesus with your own eyes and ask yourself what he is trying to communicate.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

This is what he said. Without looking to the example of some other person to support your case, just looking at what Jesus said, what do you think he means when he says "call no man on Earth father"?

Why would we follow a recent view which refuses to take seriously how Christians have read Scripture in days past?

Errr...recent view? But I'm talking about a direct quote from Jesus.

Why just go it on our own and think we can go privately and understand everything Christ say. Protestants and Catholics go privately to John 15:26, and they add words to Christ's words when they say in their version of the "Creed", "and the Son."

How is that relevant to "call no man father"? Are you suggesting that someone hacked into blueletterbible.com and changed the words from "call no man on earth Father" to "call no religious person on earth father"?

If that is so then I really think you are clutching at straws here.

Talk about this is more important than whether or not we are allowed to call anyone father.

Well, Jesus seemed to think it was important, enough so to make an actual command out of it. I just gave this as an example of many commands that Jesus gave. My goodness, scott, if you have this much trouble with an admittedly tiny little command like "call no man father" how will you ever come to terms with laying your life down?

[QUOTE] Is it wrong to call fathers and grandfathers by their titles? Is that what Christ was saying? You can't say "grandpa" to your "grandpa" because it would be calling someone grand "father"?[/QUOTE]

Well, what did Jesus say about it? You make it sound like he was just being ridiculous, which could explain why you simply will not heed the instruction. It's too ridiculous for you to believe it to be a legitimate teaching from Jesus, even though you can see the words "do not do it" written right there in black and white (or red if your using red letters lol)

Respectability or emotional family traditions like "grandpa" seem to be at the heart of your argument here, or maybe even a bit of fear of that people will think of you if you didn't give them the respect they demand in these titles, or maybe YOU like the respect that comes with being called "Sir" (father) or "Mr." (master).

I think there is probably some truth in all of those suspicions. Like Nicodemus (ironic that you mentioned him, albeit a bit dishonestly) you won't even be able to see the kingdom of Heaven unless you can become like a little child and just do what daddy tells you to do, even if it is uncomfortable at times.

 

[3dPenguin]

Normally I do not feel the need to directly disagree with someone's interpretation.

But PBAH , I perceive a potentially deadly error here, one that could lead to the true death of a brother.

To infer that the holy spirit is a man leaves you open to the deception of the false profits that are to deceive the world along with, and at the behest of the beast.

This is a grave matter and the only one I've come across so far that could truly endanger a believers salvation.

There is a sin unto death and it can take your salvation.

look at these verses

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus clearly uses the word ghost, no man is ghost.

Jesus also says the "world can not receive the comforter, it sees him not." The world will see a man

HE also says "you know him, he dwells with you" (he was with them that very moment) "and will be in you" No man can dwell within another man

And to clench it HE says "I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you", Jesus is no longer man but ghost and will not come to earth in person again until the very day of judgment.

The SPIRIT is GOD as is the SON.

I only write all this of you PBAH because I see a deadly error in your interpretation, one that could allow you and others to be misled.

May GOD keep you

 

[Red33]

Did God have children and leave them a letter, a book, telling them how to live?

No, He came and took up an abode in us Himself.

I know and believe that God did both, left us the scriptures telling us how we should live and also took up an abode within us through the Spirit. Most believers that have the Spirit would witness to the truth that we have both.

You would have the word be God.

God would take that job Himself, in us.

Here's my answer to that. Do the words that you speak represent you and what you think? Do your words reveal what is in your heart? When you instruct your kids, do you mean exactly what you say to them? Can your kids trust that what you tell them has no pretense or ulterior-motive? If you wrote a letter to your wife can she trust what you wrote as coming from your mind and heart? If your kids and your wife can trust your words that you give to them, why can't you trust the inspired words that God has given as representing His mind and heart? The scripture is God's spoken word written down and is trustworthy because it is divinely inspired. God is His word and His word represents Him 100%. You can not separate God from His word because the word is God and it became flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus Christ.

See the above in blue.

Every believer that loves God and wants to know Him picks up the Bible and begins to read and believes in their heart that the words they are reading are inspired and written to them right from the mouth and heart of God. The child-like faith that they have believes that those words are from God and they act upon them as coming from their Father. The Holy Spirit that comes from the Father supports their child-like faith and gives them grace by opening their understanding and revealing to their mind and heart the truth the scriptures are teaching. Their child-like faith is honored by the Holy Spirit and truth is deposited in their heart revealing Christ and giving them a basis for their fellowship with the one that saved and redeemed them through His blood. Those who have child-like faith do not separate God from His word. To them God is nothing less then what He has spoken and revealed in His written word and the written word is nothing less then what God thinks and has expressed right from His heart.

 

[VW]

Actually, you are wrong. The Holy Spirit comes and gives us faith, it is the gift of God.

Sorry, I know that we will never see eye to eye in this. But you will not stop me from writing and saying what God has told me to say, which oddly enough is supported by scripture.

In Christ,

 

[Scotth1960]

Nice quote, broern. Any practical examples of those commandments you would like to share?

I'm currently discussing "call no man father" with scott but some other examples would be welcomed, I'm sure.

I don't know what this fascination is you have with the early, church, but I was asking you to just look at the teachings of Jesus with your own eyes and ask yourself what he is trying to communicate.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

This is what he said. Without looking to the example of some other person to support your case, just looking at what Jesus said, what do you think he means when he says "call no man on Earth father"?



Errr...recent view? But I'm talking about a direct quote from Jesus.



How is that relevant to "call no man father"? Are you suggesting that someone hacked into blueletterbible.com and changed the words from "call no man on earth Father" to "call no religious person on earth father"?

If that is so then I really think you are clutching at straws here.



Well, Jesus seemed to think it was important, enough so to make an actual command out of it. I just gave this as an example of many commands that Jesus gave. My goodness, scott, if you have this much trouble with an admittedly tiny little command like "call no man father" how will you ever come to terms with laying your life down?

[QUOTE ] Is it wrong to call fathers and grandfathers by their titles? Is that what Christ was saying? You can't say "grandpa" to your "grandpa" because it would be calling someone grand "father"?

Well, what did Jesus say about it? You make it sound like he was just being ridiculous, which could explain why you simply will not heed the instruction. It's too ridiculous for you to believe it to be a legitimate teaching from Jesus, even though you can see the words "do not do it" written right there in black and white (or red if your using red letters lol)

Respectability or emotional family traditions like "grandpa" seem to be at the heart of your argument here, or maybe even a bit of fear of that people will think of you if you didn't give them the respect they demand in these titles, or maybe YOU like the respect that comes with being called "Sir" (father) or "Mr." (master).

I think there is probably some truth in all of those suspicions. Like Nicodemus (ironic that you mentioned him, albeit a bit dishonestly) you won't even be able to see the kingdom of Heaven unless you can become like a little child and just do what daddy tells you to do, even if it is uncomfortable at times.[/quote]
Dear cows chewing grass, So, what would you do with what St. Paul did? Consider, "But was Christ's saying to be taken at face value as we had generally done? Were we not to call Orthodox pastors father? If so, several other passages in the Bible were immediately in trouble, including some statements by the Apostle Paul in the New Testament, To the church at Corinth the Apostle wrote, "For is you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Corinthians 4:15, NASB, emphasis added). Does not Paul claim to be the spiritual father of the Corinthians-- "Father Paul", if you please?" [Gillquist, Peter E. (1989). Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith. Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishers; pp. 98-99.]. What about this, "Cows chewing grass"? What about this? Why all this fuss about one word "father", when St. Paul had no problem in Christ calling himself "father". Was St. Paul disobeying Christ? What say you?
Also, I don't know why people choose pseudonyms for themselves in this forum. Naming oneself after animals and so on? If one wishes to remain anonymous, why not just call oneself Mr. Anonymous? Why the animal symbolism. If one herds cows, okay. (I understand people make a living in different ways. God has ordained labor (work). He said, "Six days shall ye labor ..." That did not change with the NT. The apostles chief job, however, was to labor for the Gospel. But I don't understand why some people think Peter was unemployed. He may no longer have went fishing, but that doesn't mean he was a bum. People need to occupy themselves with some occupation. Most of all, Christians need to labor in reading the Bible.) (Anyway ....
Why not go by one's given name? It is a lot more natural. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[serpentslayer]

Pbuh,
U r 1 lost and confused individual. Maybe you should be chatting on MuslimChat.com because true
believers in Christ as the Savior are true Christians, which makes you a heretic. Believe it or not,
mohammed is 'pushing up daisies' (dead), as all men must one day be; however, Jesus is the first
and only person to have been resurrected from the dead and glorified in a heavenly body, which is
the proof for us that HE is the Christ. And did you not know that the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT
are ONE? So where then is mohammed?

 

[juliet84]

See the above in blue.

Every believer that loves God and wants to know Him picks up the Bible and begins to read and believes in their heart that the words they are reading are inspired and written to them right from the mouth and heart of God. The child-like faith that they have believes that those words are from God and they act upon them as coming from their Father. The Holy Spirit that comes from the Father supports their child-like faith and gives them grace by opening their understanding and revealing to their mind and heart the truth the scriptures are teaching. Their child-like faith is honored by the Holy Spirit and truth is deposited in their heart revealing Christ and giving them a basis for their fellowship with the one that saved and redeemed them through His blood. Those who have child-like faith do not separate God from His word. To them God is nothing less then what He has spoken and revealed in His written word and the written word is nothing less then what God thinks and has expressed right from His heart.

This is very well put.

 

[VW]

This is very well put.

Yes, it sounds really good.

Unfortunately, this thinking has brought about the church as she is today.

It has been a long and sordid road.

God is god. His word is His word, and it comes from Him. Knowing His word does not equate to knowing Him. We can only know God in two ways. First is by His indwelling Holy Spirit. The other is by entering into fellowship with Him, which means entering the holy place through the veil.

Scripture is God's word. We can learn about Him, somewhat, through the study of scripture. Knowing about Him and knowing Him are two entirely different things. And please remember that as Jesus said, eternal life is knowing the one, true, God, His Father.

It has always been thus.

 

[Scotth1960]

[quote=cows_chewing_grass;384590]Hi Journey and scott,

Journey, you say:

Jesus said:Matthew 23:9

Can you see any difference between what you have said, and what Jesus said? Can any one see the difference? Please believe that I totally understand your point about spritual leaders not deserving the title, but can you see my point about how that is different from what Jesus said?


Matthew 23:1

Jesus said do not be called Father, not that we cannot be fathers.

However, I think you may have a point with the Paul thing, But please also consider this..

Dear "cows chewing grass", If I may in fact have a point with the reference to St. Paul,

how can it be wrong to call someone father, when St. Paul calls himself father? Was St.

Paul really disobeying Christ. Is Christ forbidding the use of the title father for people?

Or is He getting at something else. Don't think it is just at face value, when St. Paul does

seem to violate what the Lord was forbidding here. In any case, what about seeking a

biblical justification for "Reverend," "Minister", "Pastor", "Brother", when none of these

are mentioned in Scripture. Yet some Christians use this terms. How can they forbid the

use of the word "Father" for a preacher/priest, but then allow these non-biblical terms?

Seems contradictory to me, to say the least. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Pbuh,
U r 1 lost and confused individual. Maybe you should be chatting on MuslimChat.com because true believers in Christ as the Savior are true Christians, which makes you a heretic. Believe it or not,
mohammed is 'pushing up daisies' (dead), as all men must one day be; however, Jesus is the first and only person to have been resurrected from the dead and glorified in a heavenly body, which is
the proof for us that HE is the Christ. And did you not know that the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ONE? So where then is mohammed?

Dear serpentslayer, In defense of PBUH, we should be charitable to those who do not believe in Christ. He needs Christ, and we should pray God have mercy on him, and open his heart to Christ the LORD. We should not be judgmental toward anyone, whether they or Muslim or whomever. Yes, for Mohammad's sake they are enemies of the Gospel. But Christ Himself commanded, "Love your enemies." Yes, Mohammad was a deceiver and a false prophet, an anti-Christ. God has dealt with him. But it is not altogether
clear what will happen to Muslims. Yes, God has the same standard for all men. May God have mercy on the Muslim people. May the Holy Spirit bring them to faith (John 3:16) in Jesus Christ. Of course, we should oppose the lies and false teachings that PBUH has stated regarding Muhammad. The Holy Spirit is not Muhammed. The Holy Spirit is God, another Paraclete (Advocate), along with Christ, Who is a Paraclete (Advocate) with God the Father. In the Quran, God is never called Father. So we can only hope Muslims will stop reading the Quran, and start reading the NT in light of the NT. The New Testament is the Gospel. The Gospel is about Christ, the Son of the living God. .... Sincerely, Scott in America

 

[Scotth1960]

[quote=VW;384847]Actually, you are wrong. The Holy Spirit comes and gives us faith, it is the gift of God.

Sorry, I know that we will never see eye to eye in this. But you will not stop me from writing and saying what God has told me to say, which oddly enough is supported by scripture.

In Christ,[/quote]
Dear VW, Of course, the Holy Spirit is the Author and Finisher of our Christian Faith. The Christian Faith was summarized in 381 AD in the Creed of the 318 fathers of the Greek speaking Church in Constantinople, the First Council of Constantinople. It is a Faith for all Christians! What is the Christian Faith but the "Faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3)? There are actual saints after the period of the New Testament. One of these Saints was Photios the Great, who lived in the 9th century. We should read his book on the Holy Spirit, as it is a key to understanding the Gospel, John 15:26! See:
Saint Photios. (1987). The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit. Joseph P. Farrell, trans. Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press. God bless you! Of course, Orthodox Christian Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit of God, Who proceedeth from the Father (John 15:26). Amen. There is no merit or righteousness in ourselves, but only the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because of our trust in Christ as LORD and Saviour. In Christ Jesus our LORD GOD and Saviour, In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington