is bible the word of God
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This extreme claim is rather easy to refute. For example, in 2011, Dr. Keith Small published a thorough comparison of the popular modern Quranic text to 22 other copies of the Quran, including many of the earliest manuscripts we possess as well as several medieval manuscripts and one modern edition of the Warsh text used by many Muslims in North Africa and Yemen.7He focused his work specifically on Surah 14:35-41.8 In just these seven verses, he found nearly 350 variants among all the manuscripts he examined. The vast majority of these variants were mere matters of spelling conventions and lettering systems that have absolutely no effect on the meaning whatsoever.9 21 variants, or about 6% of the total, were plainly copyist mistakes in the particular manuscript in question.10 There were 17 variants (or 5% of the total) that did, in fact, affect the meaning of the text11 but even here the impact on the meaning was typically rather minor.
((quoted from: https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran#footnote8_i1jjq7f ))
- 7.this work is published in Dr. Small's volume "Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts" (Lexington Books, 2011)
- 8.Keith Small, Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts, (Lexington Books, 2011) 4
- 9.ibid, 134-135
- 10.ibid, 134
- 11.ibid, 135
((quoted from: https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran#footnote8_i1jjq7f ))
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@mjkhan
quoting from the same link:
quoting from the same link:
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 103 reads:
"Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) was mentioned before 'Abdullah bin 'Amr. The latter said, 'That is a man I continue to love because I heard Allah's Apostle saying, ' Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from (any of these) four persons: 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Ubai bin Kab, and Muadh bin Jabal.' I do not remember whether he mentioned Ubai first or Muadh."
This same Abdullah bin Masud is also reported in Sahih Al-Bukhari as having said:
"By Allah other than Whom none has the right to be worshiped! There is no Surah revealed in Allah's Book but I know at what place it was revealed; and there is no Verse revealed in Allah's Book but I know about whom."
We cannot question, then, that Muslim tradition holds Masud as a particularly complete and trustworthy source for the Quran. Yet Muslim tradition is filled with hosts of examples of where Masud's readings were different from the standard text.18 In regard to the official version of the Quran sanctioned by Uthman and gathered by Zayd ibn Thabit, Masud is said to have proclaimed:
"The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit," (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444).
Ubai bin Kab is listed above alongside Masud as one of the great reciters of the Quran commended by Muhammad himself. Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 527 records about Ubai bin Kab:
"Umar said Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites."
So we see an admission that the official version differed noticeably from other versions of the time that seemed to also have an authoritative claim to being the original.
@mjkhan
again from same article --
again from same article --
The very story of the Quran's collection given in official and authoritative Muslim sources reports the addition of at least one verse. In Sahih Al-Bukhari (the most trusted collection of the Hadith15) Volume 6, book 61, number 509, it is said that after Muhammad's death there was a battle in which many people who had memorized the Quran had died. The close companions of Muhammad who were leading the Muslim community were concerned that portions of the Quran could be entirely lost if they didn't collect all of the Quran into one written volume. Abu Bakr (the first Caliph, Muhammad's first successor as leader of the Muslim community) sent a man to gather all of the Quran together, saying:
"you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book." He began the project of "collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him."16
From this work, one official copy of the Quran was produced and remained with Abu Bakr until he died. The very next Hadith in the collection (Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510) explains that by the time of the third Caliph, Uthman, Muslims were reciting the Quran differently from one another so significantly that it threatened to tear the Muslim community apart. Uthman sent for the full copy of the Quran that Abu Bakr had made, and also sent for all the written fragments of Quranic material throughout the land and commissioned a yet another project of collecting the Quran. He ordered the production of a new authoritative edition of the Quran, a copy of which was sent to each province. All the other Quranic material was burned. The hadith ends by noting that a verse had been left out of Abu Bakr's edition that was found and added to Uthman's collection. Once again, this verse was found only with Khuzaima bin Al-Ansari, the same person who had remembered a verse no one else knew the first time the Quran was collected. This official account of the Quran's collection tells us a lot of interesting information, not the least of which is the fact that at least one verse was added to the official written edition of the Quran between the first and second collections. It also tells us that any early version that might have disagreed with this official edition was destroyed.
- 15. the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and of his companions which are considered scripture by most Muslims
- 16. It is worth noting that if there was one verse by this point that was only remembered by one person and not by anyone else, it seems entirely possible that there were other verses lost by those who had died in the battle or had otherwise forgotten
so @mjkhan hadith itself says that the Quran is not perfect. about 600 years after the Bible was written, after Mohammed died, people were reciting all kinds of different and conflicting sutras. there was no agreement. so Uthman, a man of considerable political power, collected what fragments he could and decided what should be 'official' -- then he destroyed anything that conflicted with what he had decided was 'official' -- so that there could never be any evidence of his version not being perfect.
even after he did this, at least one verse was added to what he had called 'perfect'
were you aware of this?
even after he did this, at least one verse was added to what he had called 'perfect'
were you aware of this?
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H
Thats just dumb and false. Bwahaha.
The Quran has multiple differences and its been written by one lunatic, and he couldnt even keep the story straight. Its just retarded poetry, sorry dude. No chronology, no storyline, no beginning or end, just retarded poetry with constant threats of hellfire and conflicting advice on how to treat unbelievers. (Notice, early on its be friendly, later on with progressive revelation its take them out as the caravanrider got more goons for his cult)
Islam is the only false religion in the world that denies the crucifixion, even atheists and secularists agree that Jesus did exist and was crucified.
You've been sold the brooklyn bridge in the sinai desert my friend
The Quran is what it is as i said, retarded poetry with no kind of beginning or ending, unclear, unstable and its written by ONE guy, Bible is chronological and written by 40 different authors in different centuries. Checkmate
If you wanna go deeper into that false religion of yours, check out the Hadiths, they are REALLY wacky, here is a funny summary,
The Quran has multiple differences and its been written by one lunatic, and he couldnt even keep the story straight. Its just retarded poetry, sorry dude. No chronology, no storyline, no beginning or end, just retarded poetry with constant threats of hellfire and conflicting advice on how to treat unbelievers. (Notice, early on its be friendly, later on with progressive revelation its take them out as the caravanrider got more goons for his cult)
Islam is the only false religion in the world that denies the crucifixion, even atheists and secularists agree that Jesus did exist and was crucified.
You've been sold the brooklyn bridge in the sinai desert my friend
The Quran is what it is as i said, retarded poetry with no kind of beginning or ending, unclear, unstable and its written by ONE guy, Bible is chronological and written by 40 different authors in different centuries. Checkmate
If you wanna go deeper into that false religion of yours, check out the Hadiths, they are REALLY wacky, here is a funny summary,
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This is a very well-done movie/documentary concerning the Bible that you may be interested in seeing (free for Amazon Prime members right now). It was released in 2018.
The God Who Speaks
The well-known cast includes theologians, pastors, historians, apologists, and linguists. Enjoy!
~Deut
p.s. - it's 90 minutes long, but in the end, you will wish you could have heard much more from each speaker. The good news is, you can, because there is more from each of them on a set of multiple DVD's that is meant to be used to teach a Sunday School class (for $25 from the folks who made the documentary).
The God Who Speaks
The well-known cast includes theologians, pastors, historians, apologists, and linguists. Enjoy!
~Deut
p.s. - it's 90 minutes long, but in the end, you will wish you could have heard much more from each speaker. The good news is, you can, because there is more from each of them on a set of multiple DVD's that is meant to be used to teach a Sunday School class (for $25 from the folks who made the documentary).
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What do you think....my view follows...
THE BIBLE
This book is not the work of one man and or a Shakespearian play.....It was written over a period of 1600 years by some 40 odd authors. It contains the verbiage of Kings, priests, slaves, Roman soldiers, tax collectors, fishermen, thieves, Pharaohs, the rich, the poor, lepers, demon possessed, angels, Satan and every other gambit of human background. It accurately predicts the rise and fall of world kingdoms and even names the leaders of some centuries or more in advance of their coming and exactly what they would do in their reign. It is full of overwhelming proof of divine influence and even speaks to modern flight, modern weapons, nuclear war, genetics, more than 4 dimensions, modern mathematics, medicine, astronomy, and has hundreds of prophetic utterances that have come to pass exactly as they were given without error.
Not only does it contain narrative, but it also contains allegory, metaphor, symbolic, prophecy, parables, poetry, acrostic psalms, prayers, and the words of a donkey while being written in four languages (some Chaldean in Daniel and Aramaic in Matthew) and containing language beyond human comprehension.
ABOVE all....It contains the divine words of the one true God concerning the human condition and the eternal destinies of men based upon said choices in this life I.E. a person's destiny is sealed based upon their acceptance and or rejection of the irrevocable gift of life found in Christ.
What I have said here does not even scratch the surface concerning the validity of the word and the value without price that can be placed upon the pages and pages of wisdom that can be gleaned from the truth found therein.....it is tragic that men devalue it to the mere works of men which states multitudes about their bias, reckless abandon and lack of honest evaluation.
ABOVE all....It contains the divine words of the one true God concerning the human condition and the eternal destinies of men based upon said choices in this life I.E. a person's destiny is sealed based upon their acceptance and or rejection of the irrevocable gift of life found in Christ.
What I have said here does not even scratch the surface concerning the validity of the word and the value without price that can be placed upon the pages and pages of wisdom that can be gleaned from the truth found therein.....it is tragic that men devalue it to the mere works of men which states multitudes about their bias, reckless abandon and lack of honest evaluation.
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Ummmm, I think I know where this one is going (as have many others previously).
Kilo Juliet Victor Oscar
Regardless, my post above stands.
Kilo Juliet Victor Oscar
Regardless, my post above stands.
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I would encourage you to read John 1:1 and then all the OT prophets. It may shed some light on things for you. The word is throughout the "word" (scripture)
and yes, there is a distinction between the father and the son even in the OT.
As to the Quran...I read it when I was incarcerated. I was angry and searching. I found it had "an echo" of truth but so does the enemy. When you dig deeper as in a zealous thirst for truth, you start to see holes. Things that don't bear up under real storms and true peril.
I only read it once but it didn't really "speak" to me. It brought up the question on whether Jehovah and Allah were the same but without real study and the Lord actually being for my pursuit I wouldn't venture there again. Wrath is a thing.
As to the OP though. I don't know. I think it is. It seems to be. No other book has every "refined" me. Strengthened me.
Sure some have told me exactly what I wanted to hear....but in a "eating dessert before the meal" kind of way. The result was ultimately unfulfilling.
I'll have to think a little longer on the subject but in the end this I do believe. The Lord rewards those that dilligently seek him. Keep digging and keep searching. There are parts of the Word that are confusing. Open up the dialogue
and yes, there is a distinction between the father and the son even in the OT.
As to the Quran...I read it when I was incarcerated. I was angry and searching. I found it had "an echo" of truth but so does the enemy. When you dig deeper as in a zealous thirst for truth, you start to see holes. Things that don't bear up under real storms and true peril.
I only read it once but it didn't really "speak" to me. It brought up the question on whether Jehovah and Allah were the same but without real study and the Lord actually being for my pursuit I wouldn't venture there again. Wrath is a thing.
As to the OP though. I don't know. I think it is. It seems to be. No other book has every "refined" me. Strengthened me.
Sure some have told me exactly what I wanted to hear....but in a "eating dessert before the meal" kind of way. The result was ultimately unfulfilling.
I'll have to think a little longer on the subject but in the end this I do believe. The Lord rewards those that dilligently seek him. Keep digging and keep searching. There are parts of the Word that are confusing. Open up the dialogue
