Is Charismatic A Cult?
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I was a charismatic from my childhood to about 22 so I have personal experiences with several pentecostal/charismatic churches, many people, many books, preachers, magazines etc.
I think that many charismatic churches and leaders, prophets etc are behaving exactly like a cult.
There are some charismatic churches that behave "normally", but I think they are a minority.
My experience is from Europe, but we had many preachers coming from the USA, Australia or South America to preach here.
I am not talking about people, in every church can be both a fanatic and a normal Christian. I am talking rather about the character of the system.
I think that many charismatic churches and leaders, prophets etc are behaving exactly like a cult.
There are some charismatic churches that behave "normally", but I think they are a minority.
My experience is from Europe, but we had many preachers coming from the USA, Australia or South America to preach here.
I am not talking about people, in every church can be both a fanatic and a normal Christian. I am talking rather about the character of the system.
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There are no outward sign gifts that we could perform as a way of proving we have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1Co 1:22
Signs as God defines them in the scriptures (1Co 14:22 ) are for those who rebel (no faith) While prophecy of scripture is for those who are walking by faith (the believer) .We understand Him by an exclusive faith, through prophecy. His words of faith.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but "prophesying" serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
It does boil down to whether we will trust how God defines outward signs compared to prophecy or compared to men who seek after signs.
It was the apostate unconverted Jews all through the old testament that sought after signs in charismatic way.
The law of faith informs us; it is an evil generation(natural man) that does seek after signs.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1Co 1:22
Signs as God defines them in the scriptures (1Co 14:22 ) are for those who rebel (no faith) While prophecy of scripture is for those who are walking by faith (the believer) .We understand Him by an exclusive faith, through prophecy. His words of faith.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but "prophesying" serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
It does boil down to whether we will trust how God defines outward signs compared to prophecy or compared to men who seek after signs.
It was the apostate unconverted Jews all through the old testament that sought after signs in charismatic way.
The law of faith informs us; it is an evil generation(natural man) that does seek after signs.
Yes.................
and.............No..........
I understand what you are saying..........however, there ARE outward signs that reveal to the world that we are His disciples.
John 13:34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 .) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
As well, in my opinion, water baptism is an outward sign of our inward rebirth/conversion. Revealing to both the world and the Church that we have become disciples of Jesus Christ.
No. Because what you call charismatic is just any group who believe in the gifts
of the spirit, which covers traditional believers to wakey mystics.
Under the disguise of spiritual gifts, latter reign theology has taken hold, and many
want the elation and promise they felt years ago to come to fruition.
I have met people who will forgive almost any sin, in the hope this is the dawn of
the reign of Jesus on earth through His church. That is the danger of this love
of the spiritual elation without boundaries, as if this defines a move of God.
of the spirit, which covers traditional believers to wakey mystics.
Under the disguise of spiritual gifts, latter reign theology has taken hold, and many
want the elation and promise they felt years ago to come to fruition.
I have met people who will forgive almost any sin, in the hope this is the dawn of
the reign of Jesus on earth through His church. That is the danger of this love
of the spiritual elation without boundaries, as if this defines a move of God.
Yes.................
and.............No..........
I understand what you are saying..........however, there ARE outward signs that reveal to the world that we are His disciples.
John 13:34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 .) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
As well, in my opinion, water baptism is an outward sign of our inward rebirth/conversion. Revealing to both the world and the Church that we have become disciples of Jesus Christ.
and.............No..........
I understand what you are saying..........however, there ARE outward signs that reveal to the world that we are His disciples.
John 13:34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 .) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
As well, in my opinion, water baptism is an outward sign of our inward rebirth/conversion. Revealing to both the world and the Church that we have become disciples of Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the reply,
I would offer yes......... and........... yes.
Seeking after signs as a work we could do, are designed to show the rebellious, natural unconverted man without the Spirit of Christ .
In doing so some forget the law which is not subject to change found in 1 Corinthians 14, that prophecy is for those who believe, without seeing. The faith coming from God principle.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Those who refuse to walk by a faith (Christ’s) coming by prophecy find themselves as the unbelieving Jew(no faith) The Jews downfall described as their stumbling block..
They figured because God was using their outward flesh as types and figures up until the first century reformation it was a sign they had eternal life. When they performed the ceremonial laws they thought it meant it was evidence they were children of God . Just as today with what people call sign gifts, as if there was any outward sign that proved a person had the Spirit of Christ , the Holy Spirit of God. It as it is written alone is the unseen qualifier coming from a new heart and an eternal new spirit which is freely given as our new birth.. .
It is why the unbelieving Jew searched the scriptures in a hope of following after their own flesh. Comparing themselves by and to themselves, commending (venerating as a form of worship ) themselves by themselves and not the scriptures alone (sola scriptura) The same things the Catholics perform today as commandment of men as the oral traditions thereof of the fathers..
Signs did not testify of them seen(the temporal) but Him not seen (the eternal ).The faith principle that they made to no effect by seeking signs. God does not receive honor form men as the witness of men .He knows what is in man, that it is wicked and beyond repair as in who could know their own hearts ?
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.I receive not honour from men Joh 5:38
A sign today seeing God is no longer brining any new prophecy after any manner( a tongue or a dream as new revelations .Today because we have the whole counsel of God with no loving laws by which we could now Him more intimately with a warning not to add to it. Today is an inward desire (not seen) to do the will of God as it is written.(prophecy) His Spirit witnesses to our spirit we are children of God . It as the testimony of God is between God and the one He gives his faith to..... so that they can believe Him who has no form.
We can see that below with a Jew hoping the flesh of another Jew’s flesh, as the Son of man, puts all Jewish flesh above that which is written.
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that “hear the word of God, and keep it”.And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. Luk 11:29
In my experience with charismatic churches, I would answer the OP with "no". However, I would also acknowledge that there is a large fringe within the charismatic segment of the church which is cultic in its approach to Scripture and its behaviour. I recall a saying one pastor was fond of quoting (non-scriptural): If you have the Word without the Spirit, you dry up; if you have the Spirit without the Word, you blow up; if you have the Word and the Spirit, you grow up. Some charismatics fall in the middle group... some, but not all.
It is Impossible to have the Spirit of Christ that is born from the incorruptible seed as God's word any other way other than believing God, not seen .
If we had the authority of God as that which we can see with our eyes as something we could outwardly as a display, a sign.......... we (fill in the blank)?
I would suggest make the faith of God(who remains without form) without effect
If we had the authority of God as that which we can see with our eyes as something we could outwardly as a display, a sign.......... we (fill in the blank)?
I would suggest make the faith of God(who remains without form) without effect
L
you know, RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth is what we should be doing
for example, since God Himself distributes the gifts through His Spirit, is He going against His word?
Jesus WAS crucified and is now RISEN...when Paul says he preaches Jesus crucified, he is not leaving Him on the cross,,,so saying we all walk around carrying a cross is not what we should be doing and not what is intended
well actually, no...not at all in fact! THIS is your personal interpretation but it does not hold true in light of the whole counsel of scripture...which people who wish to uphold personal opinions, private teaching and tradition, will resort to in order to comfort themselves with the thought that they are secure in what they believe, while taking aim at those who have a different view or perhaps even a better biblical perspective
first of all, Jesus Himself was a sign and gave many signs...there are signs FROM GOD who follow after those who believe...I guess you get no signs if you do not believe...that is from God Himself
These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues Mark 16:17
(yes I know some consider that verse as an addition, but equally so, many do not...so that is another conversation...anyway, does not matter as Acts is replete with proof of the truth of that verse...as well as Paul's letters etc)
A lack of faith on the part of one individual does not cancel out the biblical injunction to be filled and to be being filled with the Holy Spirit of God. This, is more than a suggestion as we have no power apart from the Holy Spirit
These attacks on the Holy Spirit, because that is truly what they are, are clothed with the suggestion that God has somehow decided, apparently apart from what is written, to remove the authority of the believer IN Him, and have us thump our Bibles instead with no resolve other than our own
in other words, your post is not enlightened and not supported by scripture
I would not say the charismatic movement is a cult, but their doctrine about the sign gifts and how the Holy Spirit is working through them, is, i would not say not based on the scriptuem, although they claim it. The same gifts like speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie we can find in cults and in the pagan world. I dont think that there is the same spirit behind.
A spirit who reveals actions like falling backward (slain in the spirit), noising and moving like animals, uncontrolled laughing, ore rest in the Spirit I cant identify as the Holy Spirit. Also Healing and Prophecie in such movements are far away from the healings and prophecie which we find in the bible. Compare the results which is reportet in the bible (in the Gospels and Acts) with today!
That not means that healing as answer of prayer ore prophecie is not possible today!!! Special in mission situation God reveals more his power then he is doing among believers in a regulary church. The doctrine with the baptising of the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues has splittet the christianity, since more than 100 years.
Now it is more acceptet in churches which said 100 years ago that this doctrine is false. For me it is a sign of the time and a preparation for the world unit church which will established in the tribulation time under the antichrist.
I am talking from the movement, not about the individuell believer in this movements which are born again.
Two indicators for a cult are: - no salvation out of this cult; a denying of Jesus Christ as God;
Elisabet I hope I could answer you question!
A spirit who reveals actions like falling backward (slain in the spirit), noising and moving like animals, uncontrolled laughing, ore rest in the Spirit I cant identify as the Holy Spirit. Also Healing and Prophecie in such movements are far away from the healings and prophecie which we find in the bible. Compare the results which is reportet in the bible (in the Gospels and Acts) with today!
That not means that healing as answer of prayer ore prophecie is not possible today!!! Special in mission situation God reveals more his power then he is doing among believers in a regulary church. The doctrine with the baptising of the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues has splittet the christianity, since more than 100 years.
Now it is more acceptet in churches which said 100 years ago that this doctrine is false. For me it is a sign of the time and a preparation for the world unit church which will established in the tribulation time under the antichrist.
I am talking from the movement, not about the individuell believer in this movements which are born again.
Two indicators for a cult are: - no salvation out of this cult; a denying of Jesus Christ as God;
Elisabet I hope I could answer you question!
Any named denomination is in question of being a cult if it has not been named in the Word of God.
The only one not suspect is not actually a denomination, it is the Word of God with the Faith of Abraham as taught us all by Jesus Christ.
Ask yourself.......were the disciples and Jesus categorized within the parameters of any given denomnational doctrine(s)?
The only one not suspect is not actually a denomination, it is the Word of God with the Faith of Abraham as taught us all by Jesus Christ.
Ask yourself.......were the disciples and Jesus categorized within the parameters of any given denomnational doctrine(s)?
I liked what trofimus said...
"I think that many charismatic churches and leaders, prophets etc are behaving exactly like a cult.
There are some charismatic churches that behave "normally", but I think they are a minority."
I have had no experience with the Charismatic churches in Europe. But here in the United States I have had plenty.
garee said...
"There are no outward sign gifts that we could perform as a way of proving we have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God."
This is very definitely not true. They only way you can take this as true is to ignore most of what Paul wrote and the latter half of Acts.
I would turn your attention to Kathryn Kuhlman. I think it was 1971 when I saw her at the Shrine Auditorium in California. I witnesses about half of the people there being healed. That is a very conservative estimate. The Shrine holds about 6,000 people. So I saw well over 3,000 people healed that afternoon from various diseases and disorders. A large pile of back-braces, wheelchairs, and various medical paraphernalia were piled in the back, no longer needed.
Although many theories have been submitted about what she did, no one has been able to prove or duplicate her results.
Kathryn Kuhlman has said repeatedly that she has never healed anyone. It is God through His Holy Spirit that makes this possible.
During the 60s she had a television show where she would interview people who had been healed at her services. She has also written books. I Believe In Miracles I think was the best of them.
You can offer a theory if you like, but I warn you, you might be called on to prove it.
"I think that many charismatic churches and leaders, prophets etc are behaving exactly like a cult.
There are some charismatic churches that behave "normally", but I think they are a minority."
I have had no experience with the Charismatic churches in Europe. But here in the United States I have had plenty.
garee said...
"There are no outward sign gifts that we could perform as a way of proving we have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God."
This is very definitely not true. They only way you can take this as true is to ignore most of what Paul wrote and the latter half of Acts.
I would turn your attention to Kathryn Kuhlman. I think it was 1971 when I saw her at the Shrine Auditorium in California. I witnesses about half of the people there being healed. That is a very conservative estimate. The Shrine holds about 6,000 people. So I saw well over 3,000 people healed that afternoon from various diseases and disorders. A large pile of back-braces, wheelchairs, and various medical paraphernalia were piled in the back, no longer needed.
Although many theories have been submitted about what she did, no one has been able to prove or duplicate her results.
Kathryn Kuhlman has said repeatedly that she has never healed anyone. It is God through His Holy Spirit that makes this possible.
During the 60s she had a television show where she would interview people who had been healed at her services. She has also written books. I Believe In Miracles I think was the best of them.
You can offer a theory if you like, but I warn you, you might be called on to prove it.
As some are hinting in this thread you first must establish a set of defined criteria to assign cult to any group of religionists. Some consider Rome to be a cult. Many accept that JW's, Mormons and similar groups are cults.
I only ask does it matter? If they deviate from scripture does making them a cult improve the matter?
Prove words and actions by the word of God and leave the labels to Campbell's soup.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I only ask does it matter? If they deviate from scripture does making them a cult improve the matter?
Prove words and actions by the word of God and leave the labels to Campbell's soup.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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