Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

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Karraster

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2013
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The description seems clear. Hell is a living suffering

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonas 2:2
I agree with many things you say, but this I do not. Have you ever considered that Jonah may have actually been dead for 3 days and nights.....

he Sign of Jonah. …39Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I agree with many things you say, but this I do not. Have you ever considered that Jonah may have actually been dead for 3 days and nights.....

he Sign of Jonah. …39Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Thanks for the reply. My two cents

I would offer the scripture does not say dead for three days. But by reasoning of his sufferings of hell unto death, not dead, the lord heard him and delivered him . Just as in the garden the beginning of the three day work as the heart of the earth , Thursday.

I don't think dead people can pray.

Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice Jonah 2:1-2

But just as Jonas suffered a living suffering of hell for three days so shall the Son of man suffer a living hell for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Heart of the earth must equal three days of suffering . Three seems to indicate the end of the matter through the Bible.

It began in the garden(Thursday)

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

By reasoning of his suffering of hell unto death he cried out and was heard .The father sent him his assurance it strengthen him.

His sweat is used to indicate he was working as if it was blood, to represent the pouring out of His Spirit not seen as the promise . I think the word as denotes a parable is in view hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost , some say it was literal blood . Not a salvation issue but to myself more on how can we hear God not seen?

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.Luke 22:42-44

The Son of man on the cross of his own volition gave up the Ghost as the Spirit of Christ when he said it was finished. The Spirit of resurrection returned on the third day as the spirit of holiness

The cross

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;Mathew 27:49-51

The Holy Spirit returned on the third day .

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
 

Karraster

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2013
3,128
478
83
Thanks for the reply. My two cents

I would offer the scripture does not say dead for three days. But by reasoning of his sufferings of hell unto death, not dead, the lord heard him and delivered him . Just as in the garden the beginning of the three day work as the heart of the earth , Thursday.

I don't think dead people can pray.

Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice Jonah 2:1-2

But just as Jonas suffered a living suffering of hell for three days so shall the Son of man suffer a living hell for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Heart of the earth must equal three days of suffering . Three seems to indicate the end of the matter through the Bible.

It began in the garden(Thursday)

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

By reasoning of his suffering of hell unto death he cried out and was heard .The father sent him his assurance it strengthen him.

His sweat is used to indicate he was working as if it was blood, to represent the pouring out of His Spirit not seen as the promise . I think the word as denotes a parable is in view hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost , some say it was literal blood . Not a salvation issue but to myself more on how can we hear God not seen?

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.Luke 22:42-44

The Son of man on the cross of his own volition gave up the Ghost as the Spirit of Christ when he said it was finished. The Spirit of resurrection returned on the third day as the spirit of holiness

The cross

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;Mathew 27:49-51

The Holy Spirit returned on the third day .

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Thank you for sharing your views. Some of what you say I don't comprehend as in, how is that germane to the topic? (Was Jonah as well as Jesus/Yashua actually dead, not breathing for 3 days and nights?) Have you held this opinion for a long time? As for me it was recently I came to believe what I do about it.

This really needs a thread of it's own. Would you care to start one, or participate at least?

To be clear, I think Jonah was resurrected from the dead as was Yeshua.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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Just a few thoughts:

The word "eternal" fire means until it finishes what it accomplishes.

Furthermore an "eternal fire" doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering".

Eternal judgment doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering". Simply that the consequences of the judgment are eternal.

Also Scripture says this about death, “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it.”
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,537
1,013
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Just a few thoughts:

The word "eternal" fire means until it finishes what it accomplishes.

Furthermore an "eternal fire" doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering".

Eternal judgment doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering". Simply that the consequences of the judgment are eternal.

Also Scripture says this about death, “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it.”
Hello Cee,

Eternal does not mean "until it finishes."

Strong's Concordance

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

HELPS Word-studies
165
aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

The word aionios is an adjective derived from aion, which depending on the context can mean, "an age, a cycle of time or having no ending, i.e. eternal. Below is an example of eternal, i.e. having no ending:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay.

Since the scripture is referring God who lives forever and ever (aion and aion) then the word within this context would not be referring to a cycle of time or an age, because God's existence has no beginning or ending. Therefore, aion in the context is referring to God's eternal state, never ending. That said, consider the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The adjective "aionios" is used in the above verse translated as "eternal" and that for both the wicked and the righteous. The word then has to have the same meaning for both. Since we know that eternal life for the righteous will be never ending existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must mean never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. If you say that the word eternal for the wicked is temporary, then it would have to mean the same for the righteous, which we know is not true.

When all of the related scriptures are considered, the only conclusion can be that Both life and death are states of conscious on-going existence:

Eternal Life = On-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Eternal punishment = On-going conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

There are words in scriptures regarding this topic that support the idea of on-going conscious existence. Consider the following:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

1. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

The information above is pretty much self explanatory. In order for an individual to be torment in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, it would require the individual to be existing in order to experience said torment in the burning sulfur.

2. The smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever (aion and aion)

Again, one would have to be existing in order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever. If one was completely burned up once they were thrown into the lake of fire, nothing corporeal would remain for the smoke of their torment to rise up.

3. There will be no rest day or night

Once again, these words "no rest day or night" support the idea of on-going conscious existence.

You should be very careful in what you are teaching, because as it is, you are denying God's word and calling Him a liar. When scripture says, everlasting fire, eternal punishment, etc., that is exactly what God means. In addition, the words destroy, destroyed, punishment, are translated from "apollumi, apoleia and olethros" none of which are defined as annihilation or extinction. Below is the definition of these three words:

Olethros:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Apoleia:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Strong's Concordance

apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

If you noticed within both definitions, I have highlighted in dark Red a characteristic of both olethros and apoleia. The definition states that it does not imply extinction, or annhilation. Since Apollumi is the base word of apoleia, then the definition contains the same meaning. What the words do mean, is the loss of well being, ruination.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Hello Cee,

Eternal does not mean "until it finishes."

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

HELPS Word-studies
165
aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

The word aionios is an adjective derived from aion, which depending on the context can mean, "an age, a cycle of time or having no ending, i.e. eternal. Below is an example of eternal, i.e. having no ending:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay.

Since the scripture is referring God who lives forever and ever (aion and aion) then the word within this context would not be referring to a cycle of time or an age, because God's existence has no beginning or ending. Therefore, aion in the context is referring to God's eternal state, never ending. That said, consider the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The adjective "aionios" is used in the above verse translated as "eternal" and that for both the wicked and the righteous. The word then has to have the same meaning for both. Since we know that eternal life for the righteous will be never ending existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must mean never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. If you say that the word eternal for the wicked is temporary, then it would have to mean the same for the righteous, which we know is not true.

When all of the related scriptures are considered, the only conclusion can be that Both life and death are states of conscious on-going existence:

Eternal Life = On-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Eternal punishment = On-going conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

There are words in scriptures regarding this topic that support the idea of on-going conscious existence. Consider the following:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

1. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

The information above is pretty much self explanatory. In order for an individual to be torment in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, it would require the individual to be existing in order to experience said torment in the burning sulfur.

2. The smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever (aion and aion)

Again, one would have to be existing in order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever. If one was completely burned up once they were thrown into the lake of fire, nothing corporeal would remain for the smoke of their torment to rise up.

3. There will be no rest day or night

Once again, these words "no rest day or night" support the idea of on-going conscious existence.

You should be very careful in what you are teaching, because as it is, you are denying God's word and calling Him a liar. When scripture says, everlasting fire, eternal punishment, etc., that is exactly what God means. In addition, the words destroy, destroyed, punishment, are translated from "apollumi, apoleia and olethros" none of which are defined as annihilation or extinction. Below is the definition of these three words:

Olethros:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Apoleia:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

If you noticed within both definitions, I have highlighted in dark Red a characteristic of both olethros and apoleia. The definition states that it does not imply extinction, or annhilation. Since Apollumi is the base word of apoleia, then the definition contains the same meaning. What the words do mean, is the loss of well being, ruination.
You're right. Unquenchable means it accomplishes its purpose. I misspoke.

Eternal means an "age"... which isn't really eternal. It's a cycle of time.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,537
1,013
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You're right. Unquenchable means it accomplishes its purpose. I misspoke.

Eternal means an "age"... which isn't really eternal. It's a cycle of time.
You know what is really frustrating? People who will not admit the truth when it is presented to them, because they can't admit to being wrong. I listed all of the scriptural reasons and even provided the definitions of the word and you just ignored them and wrote the above. In addition, you obviously didn't read all of the post, because as I said, Aion/aionios translated as "Eternal" is defined as "an age, a cycle of time and never ending, as I posted in the previous post:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay.

Since the scripture is referring God who lives forever and ever (aion and aion) then the word within this context would not be referring to a cycle of time or an age, because God's existence has no beginning or ending. Therefore, aion in the context is referring to God's eternal state, never ending. Either that, or you believe that God only lives for an age or cycle of time.

Since you obviously don't know what the word "Unquenchable" means, below is the definition:

Strong's Concordance
asbestos: unquenched, unquenchable
Original Word: ἄσβεστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: asbestos
Phonetic Spelling: (as'-bes-tos)
Short Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable
Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable.

In other words, the fire can't be put out. It has nothing to do with "accomplishing its purpose." Its purpose is to last forever with those who are resigned to it.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
You know what is really frustrating? People who will not admit the truth when it is presented to them, because they can't admit to being wrong. I listed all of the scriptural reasons and even provided the definitions of the word and you just ignored them and wrote the above. In addition, you obviously didn't read all of the post, because as I said, Aion/aionios translated as "Eternal" is defined as "an age, a cycle of time and never ending, as I posted in the previous post:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay.

Since the scripture is referring God who lives forever and ever (aion and aion) then the word within this context would not be referring to a cycle of time or an age, because God's existence has no beginning or ending. Therefore, aion in the context is referring to God's eternal state, never ending. Either that, or you believe that God only lives for an age or cycle of time.

Since you obviously don't know what the word "Unquenchable" means, below is the definition:

Strong's Concordance
asbestos: unquenched, unquenchable
Original Word: ἄσβεστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: asbestos
Phonetic Spelling: (as'-bes-tos)
Short Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable
Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable.

In other words, the fire can't be put out. It has nothing to do with "accomplishing its purpose." Its purpose is to last forever with those who are resigned to it.
Your Scripture is age upon age.

As far as unquenchable.

Jer 17:21 But if you do not listen to Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying a load while entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in its gates to consume the citadels of Jerusalem.

Is the fire still burning? No.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No.

But thanks for your comments and sharing your opinion.

Isaiah 66:24 “They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

14Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall wburn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!

If they are not consumed, they wouldn't be as stubble.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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^ Cee, what do you think about what I'd put in these two posts? :

https://christianchat.com/threads/a-place-for-rapture-questions.166614/post-3689777 [Post #180]

https://christianchat.com/threads/a-place-for-rapture-questions.166614/post-3686967 [Post #173]



[one point in time being at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, and the later point in time being 1000 yrs later at the GWTj]
Interesting view point. One thing you’ll notice is that Scripture says the devil and his angels will be tormented for (eonian upon eoinian). Yet we tend to infer that on the people who join them.

Also weeping and gnashing of teeth is really closely aligned with loss and anger. Likely, self-anger.

In Scripture “they gnashed their teeth at him” is a picture of rage. And Esau wept bitterly because he lost his blessing.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Interesting view point. One thing you’ll notice is that Scripture says the devil and his angels will be tormented for (eonian upon eoinian). Yet we tend to infer that on the people who join them.

Also weeping and gnashing of teeth is really closely aligned with loss and anger. Likely, self-anger.

In Scripture “they gnashed their teeth at him” is a picture of rage. And Esau wept bitterly because he lost his blessing.
I would place all "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages [to be referring to] at that first point, rather than at the second point I referred to (in my posts). Meaning, at the time of His Second coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom), not the latter.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Your Scripture is age upon age.
As I continue to remind you, "age apon age" is "aion upon aion." The word "Aion" can mean a cycle of time, an age or never ending, which is the part that you forget. Therefore, in the context, "age upon age" is never ending.

As far as unquenchable.

Jer 17:21 But if you do not listen to Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying a load while entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in its gates to consume the citadels of Jerusalem.

Is the fire still burning? No.

As I have posted many times, the use of the word, is dependent upon the context. In other words, just because the word unquenchable may mean a cycle of time, that may not be what it means for another scripture. And when it is speaking about unquenchable fire, everlasting and eternal fire, there is nothing in the context that punishment is temporary. It is the same thing with every word that it used in scripture.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No.
Your error is that, it is not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah still burning, but the plague of fire that they suffered, which for those who continue in same-sex life styles will suffer in eternal fire.

But thanks for your comments and sharing your opinion.
Calling it "your opinion" is just another tactic used by false teaches to discredit the truth. Nothing that I present is of my own opinion, but is based on scripture. You haven't proved anything. You will not fine any scripture that defines eternal or everlasting as meaning temporary. You people are apart of the problem, because you speak about things that you know nothing about.

Isaiah 66:24 “They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

14Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall burn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!

If they are not consumed, they wouldn't be as stubble.
Again your error is that, the scripture is speaking about both the physical body and the spirits of those who depart and descend into Sheol/Hades. For example: the rich man and Lazarus both died and were buried, yet their spirits were found conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. Lazarus was in a place of comfort, while the rich man said that he was in torment in flame. The Lord gave us a view into the realm of the dead, but you and others interpret it as a parable and that because it kills your idea of annihilation/extinction. The only why that you are going to believe the truth is when the Lord tells Himself.

There is absolutely no scripture in the word of God that states that punishment is temporary or that when people are thrown into the lake of fire that they are burned up immediately. I have already given you the scriptural example of those where the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever, as well as those of whom it is said that they will have no rest day or night. Those words alone define the meaning of eternal punishment in everlasting fire.

You are misrepresenting God's word, but because of pride you will never admit it, just like so many other false teachers.

Consider this, there are many people who have committed suicide and that because they were assuming that their conscious existence would be over, that they would just fade to black. Your interpretation everlasting fire would give them exactly what they wanted in the first place, i.e. to be non-existent.

Your error is that you don't understand that all sin is against a Holy, righteous and eternal God and that annihilation does not fit their sins.

Did you even bother to look at the definitions of the words "olethros, apoleia and apollumi?" Did you look at the part of the definition which says, "the word does not imply annihilation or extinction?" Obviously not!

You should not be teaching these things because you are just repeating the false teachings of men.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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I rarely discuss certain things because I agree we are all figuring this out together.

But your error is you call your interpretations Scripture. And other peoples not. You think you determine when Scripture should be applied and when it should not.

You puff yourself up against others by saying, oh this is literal and this is not literal. According to your doctrinal opinions.

Sorry Mr. Scripture police, but it IS your opinion and your lack of humility is blatant. You are not the fountain of all Scriptural knowledge.

You can go puff your self-proclaimed knowledge up against someone else.

But thanks for sharing your opinions. And yes you needed this feedback. And if I knew you in person I would say this lovingly to your face.

Let’s see how you handle the correction you so love to give others.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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As I continue to remind you, "age apon age" is "aion upon aion." The word "Aion" can mean a cycle of time, an age or never ending, which is the part that you forget. Therefore, in the context, "age upon age" is never ending.
The phrase inspired and signified are both applied to the whole book of Revelation. It is the metaphoric language of parables that hide the unseen spiritual understanding from one and reveal it to a kingdom of priest, the believers

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


The terms signified and signifier are most commonly related to semiotics, which is defined by Oxford Dictionaries Online as "the study of signs and symbols and their use or interpretation".

In the parable found in Revelation 20 below. What does a angel represent that has no form . or a literal key what does it signify if not the gospel of Christ as that in which the gates of hell could never prevail against . the same with an bottomless pit or literal chain or a hand seeing hand represents the will .Literal chains cannot bind spirits that have no physical substance . What does the phrase thousand years signify ? Or beheaded souls . Is the father of lies a literal serpent or did the spirit of lies simply put his ling word on the tongue of the dragon .

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Revelation 20
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Your Scripture is age upon age.

As far as unquenchable.

Jer 17:21 But if you do not listen to Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying a load while entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in its gates to consume the citadels of Jerusalem.

Is the fire still burning? No.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No.

But thanks for your comments and sharing your opinion.

Isaiah 66:24 “They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

14Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall wburn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!

If they are not consumed, they wouldn't be as stubble.

They do not remain as stubble, the stubble with fire annihilates as fuel . no fuel no fire. Same with coal, a fuel for warning when the fuel runs out the coldness returns. No fire to sit before
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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timed out...

Your reaction is dramatic;....Re; worm...........why wouldn't you have the same concern about the fire that never dies out? Both are symbols of ...forever.
Do you know what a memorial is? Something preserved perpetually. It does not even need to be filmed for God, He has total recall. He will share the scenes with us once we become His sons.:cool:
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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Does the Bible give us a clear picture of hell.

There are so many conflicting views on what hell is and what's it's like and who goes there.

My brother recently committed suicide and I'm so afraid that he's in hell now. He professed to be a believer in Christ, but I don't even know if it's possible for a true believer to take their own life.

In any case, hell is the most horrible thing one can imagine. It's rare to hear a sermon on hell, so it's one of those subjects nobody likes to talk about.

I would really like to know the truth about hell, are there people in it now, if so are they going to continue to burn forever, do all of it's inhabitants suffer the same punishment or level of pain, do the dead go to heaven or hell as soon as they die or do they have to wait for judgement day and is it possible for anyone who has taken their own life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm absolutely devastated by the loss of my brother whom I loved dearly and I'm struggling with the thought that he might be suffering as we speak. Is it worth praying for him now, or is it too late to pray for him.
John 20 30-31
30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

did your brother believe Jesus was the Christ, Son of the Most High? if so i wouldnt worry so much about it, have faith in what Jesus teaches.
 

AlanFinch

New member
Aug 15, 2018
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My name is Alan Finch. I became a Christian 42 years ago.

It is important to understand that the Lake of Fire is not a physical Lake of Fire. The Biblical phrase “Lake of Fire” is symbolic for a Spiritual Lake of Fire which is representative of the FIRE of God’s Spirit that is going to do a transforming work of Divine Purification in each individual that comes before the Great White Throne Judgment. This transforming work from God’s Spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God’s Boundless Love for them and the entire human race. (Note: The Scriptures do not reveal how long that this process will take)

I have written a 26 page article that Biblically deals with this subject extensively. If anyone would like a copy, feel free to e-mail me and ask for a copy and I will e-mail you a copy.

[email protected]
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,537
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My name is Alan Finch. I became a Christian 42 years ago.

It is important to understand that the Lake of Fire is not a physical Lake of Fire. The Biblical phrase “Lake of Fire” is symbolic for a Spiritual Lake of Fire which is representative of the FIRE of God’s Spirit that is going to do a transforming work of Divine Purification in each individual that comes before the Great White Throne Judgment. This transforming work from God’s Spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God’s Boundless Love for them and the entire human race. (Note: The Scriptures do not reveal how long that this process will take)

I have written a 26 page article that Biblically deals with this subject extensively. If anyone would like a copy, feel free to e-mail me and ask for a copy and I will e-mail you a copy.

[email protected]
Hello Alan,

The lake of fire is a literal place of physical punishment in literal flame. There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is defined by two words ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly "to stand up again in a physical body." Jesus is our example in that, He reentered His same body three days after He died, which rose immortal and glorified.

All that said, when the wicked die in their sins, their spirit departs and goes directly into Shoel/Hades where they begin their punishment for sin against God (Luke 16:19-31). For when king David sinned he said, "Against You, You only, I have sinned," recognizing that all sin is against God. After the millennial period will be the great white throne judgment, where all of the unrighteous dead will resurrected, receiving physical bodies fit for their punishment and will be judged for every sin they ever committed and cast into the lake of fire.

In addition, there is no purification for those who die in their sins, for at that time their record is sealed and there is not salvation after death. For those who die in this state, God's love, mercy and grace are no longer in operation for them. Regarding this, if you notice at the great white throne judgment, it is the dead, which is referring to their status with God that are being judged. The books will be opened which contain all of their works of sin and they will be held accountable for every idle word that they spoke (Matt.12:36). Today, is the day of salvation. There is no salvation after death for those who die in their sins.

What are you doing is preaching Satan's message and not the word of God.

Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is a real place of spiritual and physical punishment in literal flame and eternal separation from God.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Everyone who comes into the world is already on the broad road and therefore condemned and which leads to complete loss of well being and eternal ruination. The only way to get off of that road is through having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us. Anyone who rejects Christ and dies in that state, remains unreconciled to God and therefore condemned.
 

Deade

Called of God
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God’s Memorials

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:

Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.

When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period. :cool: